Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => The Basics => Topic started by: MissMegan on February 24, 2008, 10:10:05
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My boyfriend and I have an allotment. We got it in July, but were both lazy and didn't do anything over the winter, (which I now realise was a foolish idea).
He got a whole bunch of underlay from his brother-in-law who is a builder. Apparently it's the kind that blocks out light but lets water in. That's currently covering the WHOLE allotment, but has only been there a couple of weeks.
His plan is not to dig, not to use layers of newspaper/cardboard/straw/manure/compost/etc. like the no-dig websites and books say, but to just to put down manure under the underlay, and cut out holes in the underlay where he puts seedlings.
I'm sure that this will help get rid of weeds after a while, but I'm afraid that
a) this won't aerate the soil so things might have trouble establishing roots
b) the manure won't be with other things that will build up heat and aid breaking down so it will just sit on the top
c) it will look like a MASSIVE eyesore and we'll get in trouble with the allotment association.
d) it won't actually let all the water in, and we'll flood the neighbours' allotments on either side.
He says that this is to save time because he doesn't have the money or time to source lots of compost or hay or straw for the no-dig method OR the time to double dig the whole place.
Is this a good method? I have my doubts, but maybe someone will back him up on this. Am I right in thinking this is a crazy idea?
ANY advice would be appreciated. Especially alternatives that wouldn't mean double-digging everything or spending a fortune on lots of compost!
Thanks,
Megan
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Dare I say it ???
With gardening in all its forms the return is comparable with the effort put into it.
Because of the resilience of seeds/plants you will get some return but how much is anyones guess.
Its certainly not my idea of gardening.
I will leave it at that!
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Megan
I think you may be on dodgy ground with the underlay and the chemicals in it that it was manufactured from. I understand his principle but I don't think underlay is the way to go forward!
Why don't you put (assuming you can get loads of manure) loads of manure straight on top of the weeds and plant through that? If the manure was 2 - 3 inches deep it would act the same as the carpet underlay by shutting out light to the weeds. You would probably not be able to put seeds into such a soil base but small plants could just be planted straight through this mulch. You would still have to dig up dandelions, docks and other permanent type weeds individually. He could then carry on with his straw etc type thing straight on top of the manure?
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I'm with TeeGee and I also remember how scary a big uncultivated slice of land can appear!
How about a halfway house approach.
Cover the plot with manure and cover that with the membrane and plant through with plants that don't mind that kind of treatment, e.g. potatoes and squash/pumpkin spring to mind but it could also work for toms and cucumbers as the soil will be warmed, but think about how you will water them - maybe sink an upside down bottle to get water to the roots.
In the meantime, you can roll back a portion of the membrane to dig -single digging would do and weed - do a bit at a time and recover it with the membrane.
Remember that by cutting holes and harvesting the veg, the membrane will probably only last for a year in any case.
Hope that helps - you don't need to double dig or throw loads of money at the plot in order to cultivate it.
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all that manure will not suit a lot of plants until it has well rotted down which takes time - I don't think you can be lazy when growing fruit and vegetables but if you love it the work doesn't seem like work :)
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I agree with Old Bird re the chemicals in the underlay, also I am assuming its manmade materials which may break down over time and become annoying if you ever did want to dig it or rotovate. Having previously removed lots of decomposing carpet and underlay from an allotment I had in the past I know its not an easy or pleasant job.
Personally I get a great deal of satisfaction in clearing land by hand, even digging out the nasties like horsetail - but then I am told I am strange. :o (But it is cheaper than gym membership and more enjoyable IMO). If this isn't for you and you are not looking to be organic then the easiest short cut would be to spray with glyphosphate and rotovate. Then cover with something that is made for the job. Alplas plastics do ground cover materials which are fairly reasonable that last up to 20 yrs. You can then either plant through this, after incorporating manure, or just use it to keep an area under control.
I buy from ground cover materials from www.allplas.co.uk
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If you cant afford garden spade or fork to dig with, and as you say, lazy then there is very little point in having an allotment. You will only get out good produce by on the effort you put into it.
It grieves me that people put carpet/underlay a a covering as it has been treated with fire resitant Chemicals. Then when you come to take it up what do people do with it, try and burn it, more toxic into the soil and air.
Garden fork and spade £20
3 bags of 6X manure which is the equivalent to a load of manure and will do a garden 25 x 30 mtrs £12
A bit of hard work and you end up with the best tasting veg in the world.
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Hate carpet and underlay ,we took on a plot the 2 and 3 layers thick took alot of time and many trips to the dump and I mean many try moving it when wet ,ugh! just nasty. Oh and that is where the mice live!
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Buy some plastic and cover up most of the plot. Work on a managable area to get under cultivation for this season. You will be surprised what you can harvest from a relatively small area! Dig over this area properly and remove all the perennial weed roots (dandelion, dock, bindweed, couch grass etc). If the area is that bad then perhaps let the weeds come through in spring and spray with glyphosphate before covering? Perhaps it would be an idea to speak to an established allotmeenter on your plot to help you identify what weeds you actually have. Sometimes an allotment can look bad, but it is really mainly annual weeds! If you do have bad infestations of perennials then there really is now way around it - cover and dig a small area properly. If you don't do this properly now then the changes are that you will be come another disheartened newbie who gives up half way through the first season. We have a half plot which we took on last year and worked mainly on an area 30x30ft. We cleared and weeded this thoroughly and it was really worth the effort. The other young couple who started at the same time as us dug it all over straight away. They did not remove the weeds and come summer they have given the plot up. We have now taken on a 2nd plot. It is seriously awful! 6ft brambles covered half the plot and it is full of bindweed and couch grass. At the end of last season we sprayed with glyphosphate and covered the plot. We now are at the stage where we are weeding through an area approx 30x30ft to use this season. The middle third will be rough dug over and planted with potatoes. The weeds will grow, but we are hoping that this will make it easier to remove the roots next season. The other 3rd will just stay covered! An allotment has to be a long term project as there is not a 'quick fix'.
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??? ??? :-\ burn the lot or get rid of the stuff ,before i got mine allotment there was a massive pile of carpet and underlay and not forgetting what was on the garden so i cleared the lot and burnt it over a week i would say i had around a tonne of the eyesore.
any hoo, where the carpet and underlay was on the garden i tried to grow some veg and yep they didnot grow! or i got a poor yeild, this was down to the nasteys in the carpet and underlay.
my advise would be to give your local council a ring and when they are chipping all the old hedgerows use that as a mulch or just get boyfriend to get digging a bit of good old exercise ;D
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A lot depends on what the underlay is. If it blocks light, then it can certainly have a legitimate rols as long as it's not releasig a load of nasty chemicals. Lazy beds based on cardboard etc. can have a role as well, without the underlay; don't leave it in place in areas you're using, except for those crops which do well growing through holes in it. Between the two methods, you can probalby grow most things this year, apart from long-term crops like asparagus. By next year, you should have killed off most of the weeds. It them becomes a matter of getting rid of the underlay, digging out any individual weeds which have survived, and preventing them from coming back. Be persistent and flexible, and you'll get there. But you're quite right, there's more to it than putting the underlay down and hoping.
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Either stop being so lazy, or give the allotment to somebody who really wants it.
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Hi. I'm sorry I tend to agree :( When you take on an allotment you take on the hard work that goes with it. If you dont want to do it then dont have an allotment. I have had to wait ages for mine and it could be due to the fact that people take them on but cannot be bothered once they have them. :(
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If you do decide to remove all or some of the underlay, may I suggest you don't chuck/burn it just yet. Why not use it to cover the compost heap created from all those weeds or bits of decaying vegetable you will create. It should help to keep the heap warm.
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oh my. And here I am that loves soil and getting my hands dirty with digging.
Theres nothing like aching all over after a good day doing the garden.. and I cant get an allotment coz our area doesnt have them :(
I think you both should consider giving it to somebody else who really would like to use it for what its supposed to be.
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I disagree - you're obviously concerned. Keep the allotment.
Get rid of the boyfriend.
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My boyfriend and I have an allotment. We got it in July, but were both lazy and didn't do anything over the winter, (which I now realise was a foolish idea).
He got a whole bunch of underlay from his brother-in-law who is a builder. Apparently it's the kind that blocks out light but lets water in. That's currently covering the WHOLE allotment, but has only been there a couple of weeks.
How many people read this properly before replying?
Yes it says underlay but if you read the post they are clearly describing weed control fabric they just used the wrong word. Carpet underlay is not mentioned anywhere it is just people who can't be bothered reading the post properly jumping to conclusions.
Yes they they should of started work on clearing the plot during the winter when they first got it that way it could of been ready for planting by now but they have realised their mistake & are trying to rectify it.
Instead of the usual welcome to the site & advice being offered the majority of people seem to be saying f*ck off you don't deserve an allotment. If I had got a similar response to my first question I don't think I would still be posting here.
Anyway onto the questions.
His plan is not to dig, not to use layers of newspaper/cardboard/straw/manure/compost/etc. like the no-dig websites and books say, but to just to put down manure under the underlay, and cut out holes in the underlay where he puts seedlings.
Firstly if you want a no-dig allotment you really do need to follow the advice given on no-dig methods it is not just a case of smothering the weeds you also need to feed & improve the soil as you go.
I'm sure that this will help get rid of weeds after a while, but I'm afraid that
a) this won't aerate the soil so things might have trouble establishing roots
The air will get through but to find out what condition your soil is in the easiest way is to dig over a small area. You may find it is good soil easy to cultivate & it just needs weeding. On the other hand you may find it is solid clay full of rubble, glass, old carpets/plastic sheets etc... in which case you will have to decide wether you want to put the effort into digging out all the rubbish or go for a no-dig method like lasgne beds for example.
b) the manure won't be with other things that will build up heat and aid breaking down so it will just sit on the top
The manure will break down & the worms will gradually dig it in for you some root vegetabls like carrots, parsnips etc... do not like manured soil & will fork if you grow them on parts of the plot with manure added although there is nothing wrong with them they will be a pain to peel. Other veg like potatoes, beans, squash, tomaroes etc.. are heavy feeders & will appreciate all the manure you can give them.
c) it will look like a MASSIVE eyesore and we'll get in trouble with the allotment association.
I agree completely weed control fabric does look awful in my opinion but its use is widely accepted on most allotments a quick look around the other plots on your site will tell you if it is in use there or not. I would use mulches comprised of whatever organic matter i could lay my hands on instead but it is your plot so it is up to you what you use.
d) it won't actually let all the water in, and we'll flood the neighbours' allotments on either side.
It will allow water & air through it just blocks the light.
He says that this is to save time because he doesn't have the money or time to source lots of compost or hay or straw for the no-dig method OR the time to double dig the whole place.
Is this a good method? I have my doubts, but maybe someone will back him up on this. Am I right in thinking this is a crazy idea?
ANY advice would be appreciated. Especially alternatives that wouldn't mean double-digging everything or spending a fortune on lots of compost!
In some ways it is a good idea as the weed control fabric should kill off the annual weeds & inhibit the growth of the perennial weeds but there are much better ways to prepare your plot.
Before laying weed control fabric it is generally reccommended you at least cut the weeds town to ground level.
It sounds to me like you are more interested in the allotment than your boyfriend is so why not make it clear to him that things will be done your way not his. Keep the weed control fabric down for the time being draw up a plan of how you want the plot laid out ie: where the paths will be what is going in each bed where the compost bins will be etc...
Get yourself to the plot as regularly as you can & get your paths marked out first. Only uncover a small area at a time so you can create a bed do not try to do too much in one go & take regular tea breaks you don't want to put your back out nor do you want to feel overwhelmed by it. By splitting it up into small jobs you accomplish a lot more. Make sure you finish each job before you start on the next thing As you will be able to clearly see what you have accomplished.
Get the beds dug over one at a time or if you are going down the no-dig route then layer the necessary materials on that bed. You don't have to double dig the beds unless you want to even if you did it should only be necessary to do it once as long as you don't walk all over the beds & compact the soil you don't have to repeat the process every year.
Potatoes are easy to grow & good for breaking up the soil so perhaps you could create a large bed full of them this year & that ground will be much easier to dig over next year.
As far as sourcing materials goes if you want straw you should be able to get it or at least find out where to get it from wherever your manure is coming from. Or let us know what area you are in & somebody is bound to know a supplier there.
You don't have to spend a fortune on compost you will just need a bit for starting seedlings this year, you will soon be making your own compost for use on the plot. All those weeds on your plot can be composted for a start. One of the members of this forum has put together a website which shows an extremely simple almost effortless way to make compost if you are unsure how to go about it. http://www.whitewisteria.co.uk/tasks/compost.php
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Count 'em up, Baccy Man, most people offered positive helpful advice, and even you got personal about the boyfriend.
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Is it your name or your bf's on the tenancy agreement?
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And don't forget to take "before" "during" and "after" photographs. That way you can look back over the years and say - "I(we) did that". :) :) :) :) :)
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hiya, missmegan, welcome to the site, don't worry, we don't all bite ;D
make a paper plan and mark out where your beds are, aspeople have said, move a bit of the weed control fabric back, put your compost on, put the cover back, cut a cross in it and plant some squash, potatoes or courgettes..the weed control will keep the weeds away for you, if you want, put mulch between your crops, that'll conserve the moisture (after rain )..hope this helps ;D
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No biting here, there all pussycats really, don't forget horse manure costs nothing. ;D ;D ;D
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Thank you for all of the advice. I have no intention of getting rid of the allotment or the boyfriend(!!), but the rest of the advice was very good. We are planning to get awfully dirty, it's just taking a while. I think once there is more light during the day it will be easier to devote some serious time there.
It IS light-blocking stuff, not carpet underlay. It would DEFINITELY not get buried under stuff, but have compost/manure under it. And we'd find some sort of use for it if we don't need it anymore, burning it is NOT an option.
Perhaps it would be an idea to speak to an established allotmeenter on your plot to help you identify what weeds you actually have.
Thank you!!! That's one of those ideas I SHOULD have come up with, but hadn't. I think that will help us resolve some of our weed/digging disagreements.
I think we're going to have to compromise. He's done up a plan, but we've yet to sit down and look at it together. I think that will help a lot.
We'll maybe set out defined beds, clear some places for potatoes to help remove weeds, and then I'll dig out beds for some of the others. I think that maybe we'll leave the light-blocking stuff down for the part that we won't be using this year.
SMP1704, The idea of using it for squashes, etc. that will go well with manure might be an idea to keep my boyfriend happy.
...find out what condition your soil is in the easiest way is to dig over a small area... The manure will break down & the worms will gradually dig it in for you...
Thank you very much for answering all the questions I had about the plastic stuff. It's made me a bit happier about having it on the allotment, albeit in small doses(!)
And don't forget to take "before" "during" and "after" photographs. That way you can look back over the years and say - "I(we) did that".
That is an excellent idea. It occurred to me this weekend while we were putting up the shell of a greenhouse we got on freecycle. I'll have to take a "before" picture of the greenhouse without any plastic/glass.
I can't believe how controversial my idea was! I was just hoping to get a couple people to take my side in the whole covering-up argument.
Thanks,
Megan
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Well at least the weeds wont grow any more, so it will make your job easier, ive just been given a huge lotttie on a farm, it has 5 plots altogther, ive nearly dug one by hand which is full of couch grass, got four more to do, one ive manured and covered with black plastic and will be doing the same with another two mins the manure while i start on the smallest of the five!! they are very weedy so, ill cover them until i get around to digging them (There is only so much you can do at once) this way the weeds wont get 3 foot high!! i always find digging by hand the best way, im sure you will get there in the end, Good luck.
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Why not cover it up and then do it bit by bit? Clear a bit to put beans in this year (if you like them) because you get a good return on them and it will encourage you to do more. Have a "garden party" with your friends coming to help and maybe persuade some of them to take on the other half. Once you get started you will get hooked. It's not work it's fun (honest)
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I've just started an allotment with my boyfriend too!
we haven't had the same issues but we have been arguing about laying bricks for greenhouse.
how to do it etc when neither of us had actually done it before. :o
it ended up with "if you carry on like that I'm going home and you can do it yourself!!". But we apologized and laught about it.
Lately he told me off for planting shallots in the wrong place and not following the excel spreadsheet!!
Control FREAK!!!! >:(
I understand now why people have their OWN allotments.
Now we each do our own thing, with our own litltle project but showing each other what we're doing, much better atmospher ;)
maybe you can have your own little area and have a competition to see who's system has the best yield! ;D
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Compo the first has the best idea, most encouraging. Each time you go down, have a list of what you want to achieve, and if possible, a time that you will be down there for. I find that if I know I'm there for 2 hours, I get cracking. If you have a list of what you need to do that day, and actually achieve it, you'll feel great!
Don't for get your butties and drinks!
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Yes I tend to agree - the first year it HAS to be lots of hard work - otherwise there is not much point in gardening!!
BUT there are some things you can do to make it easier. You can manure the bits now that will grow the summer stuff like tomatoes, melons etc because teh manure will break down. Sure if you can double dig that is great, but I got away last year with just turning over the soil and weeding. I managed to cultivate 100 m2 all by myself, just digging a bit at a time. I do cover some bits with tarps and that seems to be accepted.
But things like carrots, beetroot, beans, parsnips etc will not grow as he wants to do it, so you will have to dig some.
A girl by herself CAN dig and a lot!! Each time I go down, I do one patch, about 3 square metres, plant it then do another one next time.
The second year is easier, the ground has already been worked, you can pull up winter crops, tidy, fertilize and replant.
But I must agree with the others, the fun is getting in and getting dirty, pulling your veg up from the soil and feeling the sweat on your back. You get out what you put in - otherwise you would be better off buying your veg from the greengrocer's... ???
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Hi Megan it was a bit controversial because people misunderstood what you meant by underlay, lots on here don't like the carpet idea so I think that's why you got the replies, covering up's no problem as long as you dig some, plant some and uncover as you go along. I have an area that has carpet on but once its served its purpose its gone, and I wouldn't recommend anyone burning it. ;D ;D ;D
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Hi Megan, I have a full lottie covered up right now, the whole thing!!
We have two lotties but lost all in the floods of last year, of course the weeds grew beautifully and the one without raised beds took on the appearance of a jungle.
We pondered the idea of giving one up as we are not spring chickens but decided instead to black plastic the one and work the other for this year.
My advice is not to do anything hasty,cover it for now and uncover as and when you can.
You certainly can plant through is, squash especially and it will quickly look exciting and well used, in fact growing squash through black plastic is something I used to do all the time as the plastic warms the ground and the squash do better.I might even do that myself again.
I don't like the idea of mine being totally covered but we cannot do it all at once so needs must.
Enjoy your lottie, and the boyfriend ,
Welcome to the forum.
XX Jeannine
PS Let me know if you want squash seeds, I collect them.
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I can't believe how controversial my idea was! I was just hoping to get a couple people to take my side in the whole covering-up argument.
This site is quite tame - wait until you start talking to some of the experienced chaps on your site. I have found that saying things like "I am trying to grow veg organically", "I want to leave space for wildlife" and "I am trying to create a balance with nature" really can start a quite vigorous debate. Having said that these chaps used to have to grow veg to keep the family fed so I make sure I listen to what they have to say. The years of experience some of them may have in growing on your site means they will know it like the back of their hands. If you are lucky they will even be able to tell you where the horsetail, nettles and couch grass are worst in the summer, so where best to cover up now.
Welcome again and I hope you are a regular visitor to the site - it is an extremely useful resource. :)
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The first year I got my allotment, it was late March and although the plot had been cultivated in the past it was quite overgrown - and of course the weeds had got a head start. I cleared enough to plant potatoes and some summer stuff which I'd started off at home. Two of the best for me were mini-sweetcorn (actually gets up to about 8 or 9ft tall and looks really cool!) and squash - as I recall I had mostly Butternut, Marina de Chioggia and Turks Turban. I allowed the squash to grow along the ground and pretty soon the huge leaves had covered most of the plot - the transformation was wonderful to see - even if underneath most of the plot still looked derelict! And when they actually produced a harvest (technically an abundance - yippee!) I was as thrilled as... well, as thrilled as you'll be when you do it too!
And as for the boyfriend - yes, you're right, you should keep him, for two reasons.
1. If all goes okay, a well-trained boyfriend can be a positive boon on the plot.
2. If not... you have plenty of weed suppressant to hand.
Either way, enjoy the adventure!
;D
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And make sure you keep in with his brother-in-law- builders can provide all kinds of useful stuff for allotments!
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Hi again MissMegan. Glad some of us haven't put you off (sorry :-[) We have just started to dig our allotment. We have some of it covered. My OH moans like mad when its time to go down there but once we get stuck in he loves it. We've cleared a bit of it and it already is an incentive to do the rest. I agree with you that when the days are a bit longer it will be easier. By the time we all get home from work and school its getting dark so roll on the end of March!!! Keep everyone posted ;)
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Ho ho, how right you are Suzanne, do you remember the post about planting according to the moon!!
XX Jeannine
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This may be a stupid idea (I hope not because I have tried it with strawberries).
But why not use newspaper to cover bits of it ? That will of course rot after time and so it will not be something you need to remove.
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I scavenged big cardboard boxes from various shops and laid those down as temporary paths. once they're wet they don't blow away, and they did a great job of keeping down the weeds: nothing but bare soil left under them now, although obviously they don't last too long.
(I also have a few bits of carpet that I liberated from the derelict plots that people use to fly tip their rubbish. and I've bought a couple of rolls of damp proof membrane from B&Q. I appreciate that the carpet and dpm aren't very environmentally friendly options, but when you start off with 350m2 of weeds you just want to cover it quickly! I intend to recycle the plastic as pondliner eventually, and the carpet will probably become the bottom layer of permanent paths.)
welcome to A4A, by the way, and good luck with the plot. my OH couldn't be more uninterested in allotments - apparently he's waiting until there's a seating area in front of the shed, and tea-making facilities ::)
it's just about still light when i leave work at 5:30 so longer days are nearly here, and only another month until the clocks go forward, then you can get stuck in! and don't forget the photos :)
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Ho ho, how right you are Suzanne, do you remember the post about planting according to the moon!!
XX Jeannine
I think we need to stay quiet, it can raise quite a storm. It was also a bit of a controversial topic on BC as well ;D
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I haven't been about much over the winter and did dread going back to my plot as I cleared the weeds and then had the whole lot rotavated.
The only thing I can say is make sure you dig the weeds out, I spent a lot of time on my hands and knees cutting them down and digging the big ones out (I left some small ones in towards the end!) and after almost 3 months of neglect I have popped back briefly for a quick once over to see shoots flourishing where I thought they wouldn't and weeds hardly anywhere when I thought there would be loads.
I'm pleased I took the time at the start as I'm really bouyed up again now and can't wait to get to the garden centre at the weekend (Mothers day pressie).
As for the boyfriend at least he has an interest! My Hubby had to be bribed to bring some fence panels down in the car grrrrrrr.
Slow and steady will get you there and loads of pics every time you go down so you can see how far you have come :)