Allotments 4 All
General => The Shed => Topic started by: betula on February 20, 2008, 15:27:25
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When we lock up our OAP,S for non payment of council tax.
I read in the paper yesterday of a man called Richard Fitzmaurice,76 years old
who was sent to prison for 34 days.He had spent 22 years in the Royal Army Ordinance Corps.He was led away in handcuffs.
I think anyone over the age of 65 should not have to pay council tax at all.
What a disgusting and shoddy thing to do :'( and we are allowing this to happen.I am going to email my M.P now and I hope other people do likewise.
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Betula
Who then will pay for the Council Tax that these people don't pay?
This guy can afford to pay the Council Tax but he is making a protest. There are many many wealthy OAP's. The poorer ones don't pay Council Tax they get a credit. So it is a means tested thing. Why should the likes of me and others who work pay for these people's council tax when they (mostly) can well afford to pay their own?
They get the same services as we do - bins emptied, street lighting, cleaning, police etc. Would you think that everything for pensioners should be free?!!
I think if you think it through - whilst this guy is making his protest - he did it also a couple of years ago - and was imprisoned then. If he wasn't able to pay I would be shouting out for him but no he is making some misguided protest - to the detriment of his poor long suffering family also. He ought to pay up!
Old Bird
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I do not think council tax should be means tested.Many elderly people have small pensions that knock them off the benefit radar ,but only just and for these people life can be a real struggle.I feel that any sophisticated society should care for ALL of its elderly people regardless of income.Child Benefit is non means tested and for good reasons.After a life time of work and tax payment I think elderly people should be entitled to all council services free of charge.So yes,I have thought it through.It is a matter of the state taking care of all vulnerable people. :)
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Thanks for the comprehensive reply Betula - but again my question is WHO should pay for these services then?
Old Bird
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We should.Ie all working taxpayers. :)
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And when there are more old aged pensioners than workers - as is beginning to happen Betula - what then?
The workers will then not be able to afford to pay their vastly inflated Council Tax Bills because they are taxed so heavily to pay for the huge number of Old Aged Pensioners of whom many will be wealthy and well able to afford to pay for luxuries and who may own many houses for which we, the tax payer, will be paying the council tax bill.
I feel if they can afford to (I would not be happy subsidising a millionaire or two) they ought to pay. This guy is not short of money - he is making a protest. He is getting publicity for his cause.
Sorry Betula - I think we will have to agree to disagree!!
Old Bird
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http://www.statistics.gov.uk/populationestimates/svg_pyramid/default.htm
Take a look at this link......notice the big bulge in the middle? That's the group that's going to great problems (and I'm in there!). There are a lot of us and if we don't pay our council tax when we are elderly there will not be enough taxpayers to do it they'll be hard pushed paying for our pensions.
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Going to put my foot in it here... !!.. But if somebody refuses to pay, they should be punished as its the rest of us that foot the bill in the long run.
This country is turning into a PC country!!.. All these new regulations just not to upset folk!!.
However, my mom works in a doctors surgery.. you want to see the scams that goes on amongst foreigners for healthcare... that makes my blood boil even more!!. NHS pays millions for translators etc. In the states to become part of it you have to learn English!!!!!! Who is footing the bill for that, the taxpayer!!!.
This country is going downhill fast, and nobody votes anymore as they think the government wouldnt change anything anyway.
Our society on a whole in this country has gone to the dogs!!.. Doesnt matter what age you are, its heading for trouble.
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Yes this is an English speaking country and everyone knows that before they come here if they are not prepared to learn the language (at their own expense and before or as soon as they arrive.....unless they have skills that are in short supply then I don't mind them getting some financial help learning English) then they shouldn't bother coming. The children become a burden on our children when they arrive in the classroom and can't speak the language and teacher's struggle to cope. Paying for translators uses money that could be spent better elsewhere.
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I think this post was started with very good reasons but there is another side to this story.
I am only 66 and if I made a gesture to not pay for the reasons this gentleman is doing I would be mortally offended and very indignant if someone said Oh let her off cos she is old. It would appear to me he is well aware of what he is doing and he should be allowed to be treated the same as other folks, to treat him differently is demeaning to him, at least that is the way I would look at it.
I don't expect anyone to treat me any different because I am old whatever the reason, first and foremost I am a person who chooses to pay, or not pay if I so decide.
I choose not to retire ,and shall do so till I change my mind,I can compete despite my age so I am allowed to work, I would like to think if I chose to break the law I should be allowed to do just that and I would expect to pay the consequences, I would be furious if my protest was squashed because of my years, I would feel I was being patronised which would negate my protest and more important my feelings.
This age thing is a two way street, I want the freedom to choose, rightly or wrongly, don't take that away from me.
With respect,
XX Jeannine
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I don't expect anyone to treat me any different because I am old .[/quote]
Jeannine you have many many hundreds of dear friends on this forum and there will not be one who would describe you as old. xx
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...but Jeannine IS old LOL......unless peeps' life expectancy is around 132 - then she could be classed as middle-aged :P
btw....I agree with you, old 'un ;D
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I agree with old bird. If we all did not pay for things we disagreed with then hardly anything would get paid.
Personal opinion, I would see benefit cheats & loads of other categories sent down too. Nil exemptions. I would also like to see people collecting dole money, unemployed, & immigrants etc, who are able and who take from the state , having to do community service for for what they receive. Community service doing litter picking,graffiti cleaning, community gardening, to name a few, would all reduce the overall burden placed on council tax.
There are many people who do good willing volunteer work for free from the goodness of their heart & you do not hear them whinging. They are willingly doing something for nothing, not wanting & expecting something for nothing.
Pull out from the EU, human rights & all that rubbish and push things a bit more hardline - Take it or leave it. No sob stories & no excuses. (Phew! Rant over.)
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A few questions - how do we know this man is wealthy? and what is the definition of wealthy these days?
As I understand these protests, it is individuals taking a stand against the ever increasing tax without the corresponding increase or maintenance of service - often the reserve happens and services are downgraded and this generally affects retired people first, e.g. day services, lunch clubs etc. but ultimately it affects all of us.
Pensioners by definition have a fixed income that does not increase year on year in the way that we might expect our salaries to increase (but at the mo not enough to keep up with increases in everything - or it that just me?)
My understanding is that their protest is along the lines of 'we manage our budgets - why can't you (to the council)
This man is standing up for his beliefs and if that means going to prison, then so be it - sometimes that is the only way to bring about a change.
I don't think there is much chance of success - but it is his stand.
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What kind of society are we living in? One where the lunatics have taken over the asylum.
Although bigamy is illegal in the UK, it has been decided that it is right to pay benefits to men with more than one wife, for each wife.
Immigrant workers from Eastern European bloc countries, are able to claim benefit for children not resident in the UK.
I have a State pension on £3.28 per week, and a private pension of roughly £1,250 per year. Our council tax bill is more than that combined per annum.
My husband was compulsorily made redundant aged 56, a matter of months before he would have been eligible for the company's early retirement scheme. There being no State benefits available, he had to start drawing his company pension early. His company pension is less per annum than I was earning 20 years ago.
We pensioners are not all scroungers. We have worked all our lives and paid our National Insurance and Income Tax contributions.
The reason we are not entitled to any of Gordon Brown's means tested benefits is that we have a small amount of savings (which in my opinion is a very small amount), which we are having to use to pay Council Tax, heating, etc bills.
If we had been profligate and not saved any money we would be up to our oxters in state benefits.
All right the chap is making a gesture (futile as it may be). At least he'll be getting free board and lodging and three meals a day for the next 34 days. Seems like a good scam to me. I think I might give it serious consideration!!
That said, I'm amazed they could find a cell for him, when they are letting criminals who have committed very serious offences out early. Obviously to make room for all us disgruntled council tax paying pensioners!!
valmarg
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I agree with old bird. If we all did not pay for things we disagreed with then hardly anything would get paid.
Personal opinion, I would see benefit cheats & loads of other categories sent down too. Nil exemptions. I would also like to see people collecting dole money, unemployed, & immigrants etc, who are able and who take from the state , having to do community service for for what they receive. Community service doing litter picking,graffiti cleaning, community gardening, to name a few, would all reduce the overall burden placed on council tax.
There are many people who do good willing volunteer work for free from the goodness of their heart & you do not hear them whinging. They are willingly doing something for nothing, not wanting & expecting something for nothing.
Pull out from the EU, human rights & all that rubbish and push things a bit more hardline - Take it or leave it. No sob stories & no excuses. (Phew! Rant over.)
This is a good post with some very good points which I mostly agree with.
Personally it upsets and outrages me that pensioners are left with very little money to live on after their meagre pensions have been spent. It's not right. I'm not saying they have to be exempt from the payments everybody else makes, but they don't have the income that everybody else makes, do they? Neither do they have the means to earn it when they're in their 80s and 90s!
This d**n lily livered government needs to stop feeding the lazy gimme gimme gimme dole generation and fake asylum seekers and spend the money raising the bloody pensions, then the older folk wouldn't have a problem, would they?!
Also, I earn pretty decent money, as does my husband and I'd glady pay more council tax than I pay now if it meant just one pensioner lived more comfortably.
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Perhaps we should bring back family values and help support our extended families? Why are so many older people alone?
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That said, I'm amazed they could find a cell for him, when they are letting criminals who have committed very serious offences out early. Obviously to make room for all us disgruntled council tax paying pensioners!!
valmarg
If the jails are so full why don't we take them at the top end who have committed the worst offences and simply execute them. That way there would always be. room at the bottom end for new arrivals.
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We should.Ie all working taxpayers. :)
OK "all working taxpayers" do we (as I am working at the mo) not have enough people on are backs already ie the I won't work low life's sitting on thems arses with hands out for ever welfare going?
The last parish I was in was in the top 4percent for child poverty in the UK yes this sounds bad but when you live with them for 5yrs you why. The kids grow up thinking its a birth rite to not work and be given money by the gov because its what mum, gran and greatgran does.
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For me (58 and working for the last 42 years) the issue is society's attitude to the elderly. I was in a meeting yesterday where a young woman architect - could have been my granddaughter- with absolutely no experience whatever of teaching, listened to my criticisms of the proposed new build design and my explanations of what would work better and then thought it appropriate to tell me how to manage my classroom. I have almost 40 years' experience of teaching modern languages, am recognised as an expert in the field and am head of one of Edinburgh's most successful and innovative ML departments. I also have white hair and wrinkles. I could see her sizing me up and thinking "old bint, doesn't have a clue". Today many of my colleagues have come to thank me for my intervention and to applaud my comments. Quite a few of them are under 30! ;)
This is a one-off incident and I cite it only because it illustrates an attitude to older people which is very common nowadays. Old does not mean senile, useless or even unable to think outside the box. The Chinese have a totally different attitude to their elderly: recognise their worth and their wisdom and keep them in the heart of the family when they are no longer able to fend for themselves. Why don't we?
We have become a society of moochers who are happy to live off the state at the expense of the workers - of any age - and are not prepared to accept our responsibilities for ourselves, our children or our parents. Not all of us of course and not even all of the time when we do.
Taxes have increased insidiously over the years. I think it's April in each calendar year before taxpayers actually get the benefit of their earnings. The poorest pay the same VAt as the richest. there is so much that needs to change to make our society a good and fair one.
Compare that however with past times : rape, pillage, slaughter: people shut in bedlams who were perfectly sane; the workhouse for the unemployed and the elderly - husbands, wives and children split up; children down mines and up chimneys at age 7.
We've gone too far in the touchy feelie soft side direction but things are beginning to swing back and hopefully one day we will achieve a balance that respects the needs and aspirations of us all. Better, I think, to err on the softside than to return to the draconian measures of the past.
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Eloquent and well said.
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If the jails are so full why don't we take them at the top end who have committed the worst offences and simply execute them. That way there would always be. room at the bottom end for new arrivals.
If you decide to run for PM you have my vote ;D ;D ;D
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I regularly see a lady in her seventies using her bus pass to get a free trip into town (she doesn't drive). Always makes me smile to think that some small part of our taxes goes to subsidize that journey, because I know she has a net worth of at least two million pounds.
Pensioners are the richest group in our society by a long, long way - more than 80% of personal wealth in the UK is in the hands of the over-65s ( a third of the population), so to have the working poor pay more tax to provide a blanket subsidy to this group seems like a crazy policy to me - surely it has to be means tested?
Of course, the problem is that these figures hide huge differences and also that many pensioners wealth is tied up in they house they own - they may be "rich", but have only a small fixed income. The situation valmarg posted about must be quite common and very upsetting for the people concerned.
My father-in-law is in his seventies and ran 10 marathons in 10 days last year and claims to be fitter than when he served in the paras. Being 76 these days doesn't automatically make you frail or vulnerable and the magistrates wouldn't jail someone who had any kind of health problem.
In this particular case, which was about 18 months ago, I believe the local council in Norfolk pointed out in court that he could easily afford to pay, particularly as he had sold his story to the Daily Mail.
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Well ceratonia, there are two points I take issue with you.
1. The old biddy you quote taking her free bus trip into town.
Bus travel to the over sixties is free in England, which is wonderful if you have the luxury of a bus service. We don't. We can get an over 60's bus pass, but when there are no buses to use, what's the point??
2.'Pensioners are the richest group in our society by by long way'.
Not in this house they are not. We are struggling to make ends meed, using up all our savings to survive.
Get in the real world!!
valmarg
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I regularly see a lady in her seventies using her bus pass to get a free trip into town (she doesn't drive). Always makes me smile to think that some small part of our taxes goes to subsidize that journey, because I know she has a net worth of at least two million pounds.
Pensioners are the richest group in our society by a long, long way - more than 80% of personal wealth in the UK is in the hands of the over-65s ( a third of the population), so to have the working poor pay more tax to provide a blanket subsidy to this group seems like a crazy policy to me - surely it has to be means tested?
Of course, the problem is that these figures hide huge differences and also that many pensioners wealth is tied up in they house they own - they may be "rich", but have only a small fixed income. The situation valmarg posted about must be quite common and very upsetting for the people concerned.
My father-in-law is in his seventies and ran 10 marathons in 10 days last year and claims to be fitter than when he served in the paras. Being 76 these days doesn't automatically make you frail or vulnerable and the magistrates wouldn't jail someone who had any kind of health problem.
In this particular case, which was about 18 months ago, I believe the local council in Norfolk pointed out in court that he could easily afford to pay, particularly as he had sold his story to the Daily Mail.
Well ceratonia, there are two points I take issue with you.
1. The old biddy you quote taking her free bus trip into town.
Bus travel to the over sixties is free in England, which is wonderful if you have the luxury of a bus service. We don't. We can get an over 60's bus pass, but when there are no buses to use, what's the point??
2.'Pensioners are the richest group in our society by by long way'.
Not in this house they are not. We are struggling to make ends meed, using up all our savings to survive.
Get in the real world!!
valmarg
Why are you always so offensive to people who disagree with you. I have resisted posting in this thread - in fact I have posted and deleted about three times. You have been really offensive to me in the past - a long time before I snapped at you which got me into trouble with Dan (I didn't reveal the history) I do really think you are an embittered old woman who reads the Mail far too much and believe every little bit of fascist hate that it spouts.
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Ceratonia, I'm a little confuddled by your conclusion that owning one's house makes them rich. Of course it doesn't. I see what you are trying to say but it isn't realistic. We own our own home but we are FAR from rich. Should we sell it and become homeless, then yes, by today's standard of living, I guess we'd be rich but that's not the same thing, is it?
Also, I'd like to ask when pensioners claim their pensions, are they judged on a case by case basis to see how much they need? I ask this because every moocher who chooses not to go to work gets theirs judged that way and end up with a tidy sum to live on.
and lol @ the editing going on
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But an old man rattling around alone in a 3-4 bedroomed house that he does not need is rich. And before anybody says it - I believe that Inheritance Tax (a tax on unearned income by those receiving it) is the fairest tax there is so do not tell me that they have a right to that hose so they can leave it to their kids who will just flog it to feather their own nest.
I live in a 2.5 bedroomed house. I have three children. I cannot afford to move. One of the causes of house inflation is the number of single people in houses they do not need. I also struggle to pay Band D Council Tax. Why should I subsidise a Band A payer who is a single pensioner in a large house?
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Betty next door is 90 and has lived through a lot.. she's not rich but she's not poor.. I don't begrudge her a bus pass but the council tax is a real burden to her... even at 25%...
:(
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But an old man rattling around alone in a 3-4 bedroomed house that he does not need is rich. And before anybody says it - I believe that Inheritance Tax (a tax on unearned income by those receiving it) is the fairest tax there is so do not tell me that they have a right to that hose so they can leave it to their kids who will just flog it to feather their own nest.
I live in a 2.5 bedroomed house. I have three children. I cannot afford to move. One of the causes of house inflation is the number of single people in houses they do not need. I also struggle to pay Band D Council Tax. Why should I subsidise a Band A payer who is a single pensioner in a large house?
But how do you know what he's earnt all of his life to pay for that house? Just because you are stuck in a house you feel is too small and cannot afford to move doesn't mean he should forfeit his! He may have had a nicely paid, worked hard, had promotions, been the top of his league, allowing him to have that house and you can't just call him rich because he still chooses to live in it!
Aarrggh edit again. Also, we must remember that house prices were a whole different ball game back when he probably bought his. Assuming he hasn't just moved in or anything like that, his house probably cost him next to nothing in today's money market. When my parents bought their home from the council, it cost them something like £15,000 and then sold for .... well, I don't really need to say, do I?
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He is capital rich if not cash rich (which he patently is) If you are capital rich and cash poor, you realise some of your capital so that you have cash. You do not expect people who are neither cash nor capital rich to subsidise you. I like the way people resent poor people on benefits but think it is perfectly all right for rich people to claim benefits.
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I hope that wasn't aimed at me. I think people should only claim benefits when they REALLY have to and that is not what is happening in this country, which is why it's being drained the way it is.
Neither do I think the well off (and I wish I was one of them!) should expect to be penalised for making a good life for themselves. Where is that little ant and beetle story that was doing the rounds? Sums it up perfectly. But that's another topic and not for this thread. I could soapbox all day about it, but it's off topic.
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suzanne is right about family values. If people made more effort to look after their own instead of expecting the state to do so things in general would be a lot better.
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It's a slogan for the 21st century:
MY right, YOUR responsibility!
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Responsibility brings rights (hopefully soon)
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... capital rich if not cash rich ...
Is Richard Branson rich? I bet he hasn't got much in the bank. What about all the 'Dragons' - Should they get benifits ?
If I spent every penny on a large mansion, can I then claim I'm poor and claim benifits ?
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Reading this this morning and not wanting to 'flame' but to be fair, Ceratonia wrote:-
"Pensioners are the richest group in our society by a long, long way - more than 80% of personal wealth in the UK is in the hands of the over-65s ( a third of the population), so to have the working poor pay more tax to provide a blanket subsidy to this group seems like a crazy policy to me - surely it has to be means tested?
Of course, the problem is that these figures hide huge differences and also that many pensioners wealth is tied up in they house they own - they may be "rich", but have only a small fixed income. The situation valmarg posted about must be quite common and very upsetting for the people concerned."
...so I think that the comment about C. not living in the 'real world' is harsh - I find the whole post well-balanced and thoughtful if one takes it as a whole :-\
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Believe it or not Pesky Wabbit - Yes you can. It doesn't matter that you home is worth 1 million or whatever, if your income is non existent or very very small and you have a limited amount of savings - you can then get benefits of some sort or another!
I am due to be of pensionable age (58 now) in a couple of years time. I will not be able to afford to retire and will continue to work for as long as I am able. When I do have to retire I will probably have to sell my house and find a small flat or whatever ( I have a huge mortgage still) and then claim pension credit or whatever credit they have plus I will be given council tax exemption due to low income etc. This is by no means my fault. I am a single mother (my son is a graduate and now policeman) so no single mother jibes please! But I didn't have much earning power whilst he was a child - so was unable to build a savings scheme for retirement.
I am not at all bitter about what I am likely to receive. I will appreciate all that the country is prepared to give me and I will thank them at the time!!
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Just an aside, i hope all the woman on here know that they are changing the age of retirement for woman. Old Bird has just mentioned she can officially receive a pension in two years time. As I'm younger mine will be 65 and some younger ones won't be getting it until even later.
Some old people get very attached to their homes it's the consistent thing in a fast changing world in which they see all their friends and older family members die and leave them. It's not surprising they are resistant to moving you can't really blame them it's not just a house it's all the memories of children and maybe a spouse that's gone. Also the physical ordeal of moving is not easy when you're younger just think what it must be like when you're elderly. So they struggle on trying to cope with all the bills for a house too big for them but the alternative is just as scary.
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Kea - well said
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After I finished on here y'day, I started discussing this topic with my husband who put across RC's points with an alternative explanation which I have to say I mostly agreed with (d**n husbands, why do they have to be so clever? ;D) His explanation wasn't a way I'd looked at it before but it was right. Obviously it isn't the same for everybody, things do go wrong, as has been pointed out in this thread by two people already (VM & OB) and the government should allow for that. I still find myself bewildered by the resentment of benefits being given to OAPs when the other end of the generation gap receive all and sundry for what seems to be an unlimited amount of time simply because they don't want to work. How is that fair? Why isn't the public having a moan about that? Anyway, that's almost veering into another topic so I shall leave it there :)
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the kind of society we live is when you come from a differant country you get all the benefits available, housing, new car, that our British oap have paid for and most of them (if they are like my dad and been carefull with there money and own there house) have never drained the system as much as the influx of foreigners has. my dad is 81 has his own private pension and three little part time jobs that he HAS to have to help make ends meet. my mother who stayed at home to look after us kids is 71 and she has a small pension and has 7 jobs to help dad with the house hold bills they don't live beyond there means don't claim benefits and never have so yes it makes me sick when you see another foreign body on the streets wearing the latest clothes that you just know you have paid for society sucks and what is great about Britain any more
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A library book I borrowed from the library and found incredibly boring was about the history of allotments. Many allotments were set up as a way of helping poor people live- kept them off the streets/out of the pub and helped them provide some food for their family....
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Perhaps you don't think I have a right to intervene in a thread about your society as I am from the Netherlands.
But I do want to object to statements regarding 'foreign bodies' wearing fashionable clothes society supposedly paid for.
How do you know this?
Born and raised in the Netherlands, my parents and me owning Dutch passports, I am one of the foreign bodies you can see in the streets wearing fashionable, expensive clothes.
I did pay for them myself, I earn my living and pay my taxes.
It is also statements like these that make me wonder what kind of society we are in.
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Gargan, its a known fact that foreign people seeking asylum/or coming over here within the EU from poorer countries to this country are given a lump sum from tax payers money, and housing too.
As with the designer clothing, a certain group of people coming to this country are taking over our towns, esp in farming communities. They are out for what they can get and come here to do so.
I know for a fact that they do this, as my neighbours do just that. A family of 4 in one bedroom in a house. Both parents work, and live the life of riley... BUT.. they claim all they can get from free dentistry, free medicines etc. I was livid when they came to ask me to fill in tax credit forms for thier children back in their own country... HOW DARE THEY!!!!... They claim for benefits for children living in their own country!!!.. You think this is fair??? sorry but this subject gets my goat :D
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the kind of society we live is when you come from a differant country you get all the benefits available, housing, new car, that our British oap have paid for and most of them (if they are like my dad and been carefull with there money and own there house) have never drained the system as much as the influx of foreigners has. my dad is 81 has his own private pension and three little part time jobs that he HAS to have to help make ends meet. my mother who stayed at home to look after us kids is 71 and she has a small pension and has 7 jobs to help dad with the house hold bills they don't live beyond there means don't claim benefits and never have so yes it makes me sick when you see another foreign body on the streets wearing the latest clothes that you just know you have paid for society sucks and what is great about Britain any more
Tohellwithweeds
I cannot imagine that your parents need to work as many jobs as you say just to live!
Surely you could help them in providing them with sufficient veg to help them out. You say they don't spend beyond their means - sounds to me as if they do. The joint retirement pension plus their small pension should take care of the basics plus food, heat, light and power. I cannot imagine that if you were able to help them out a bit with veg etc from your lottie they couldn't slow down a bit!
I do and will continue to do so live very cheaply. I eat mostly vegetables, I run a car, I pay a mortgage, insurances, heat and light and I still manage to have a bit of fun! Just like hundreds of thousands of us. When I do eventually retire, I will not be able to afford to run a car but everything else should be OK. I am sure that there aren't many pensioners doing what your folk are doing just to survive. There are many that do manage to survive - albeit not living grandly - on the basic state pension.
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Springbokgirly,
In my post I established the fact that I am a foreign looking body NOT living of society.
How valid is your point now?
All I wanted to say is that you cannot see how a person can afford his/her clothes from mere seeing his/her body.
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Gargan, its a known fact that foreign people seeking asylum/or coming over here within the EU from poorer countries to this country are given a lump sum from tax payers money, and housing too.
I think you are wrong on this one Sprinbokgirlie. I think someone has been telling you porkies.
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Just an aside, i hope all the woman on here know that they are changing the age of retirement for woman. Old Bird has just mentioned she can officially receive a pension in two years time. As I'm younger mine will be 65 and some younger ones won't be getting it until even later.
Some old people get very attached to their homes it's the consistent thing in a fast changing world in which they see all their friends and older family members die and leave them. It's not surprising they are resistant to moving you can't really blame them it's not just a house it's all the memories of children and maybe a spouse that's gone. Also the physical ordeal of moving is not easy when you're younger just think what it must be like when you're elderly. So they struggle on trying to cope with all the bills for a house too big for them but the alternative is just as scary.
It may be scary but still one of the facts of life: we should not try to live beyond our means or our energy level trying to keep up a MacMansion which is what we call it in the states. So many huge homes housing a teeny family or a single woman or one elderly person who then becomes severely dependent upon neighbors/family/church members to help them maintain their former way of life.
I believe there needs to be a new education about housing- either you move to something smaller OR get a boarder in to pay rent and help out.
There is a group now that tries to pair up an elderly person with a younger able-bodied soul who needs housing. That sometimes works very well for both. I know a number of divorced folks though who struggle to keep their big house working multiple jobs and reaching exhaustion routinely. Just doesn't seem sane to me and I'm perhaps lacking in compassion when they whine.
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But ... didn't the wealthy county that we live in today get that way by robbing those countries of its Empire.
Don't we owe something to them ?
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Do we not all live on the same planet? Why should I, we have more that others ?
Does the woman that has to walk miles to the nearest well for water have a right to a better living ?
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Gargan, its a known fact that foreign people seeking asylum/or coming over here within the EU from poorer countries to this country are given a lump sum from tax payers money, and housing too.
I think you are wrong on this one Sprinbokgirlie. I think someone has been telling you porkies.
Not quite. Its the truth!!
They get £250 and a roof over their heads!
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Pesky Wabbit
Would it make you happier if WE had to walk miles to the nearest well for water to even out life's inbalances?
We have more than others due to hard work by our forefathers. We are lucky in the country of (most of us) our birth.
It is an unfortunate fact that if we spread the worlds resources equally around the world, there would still be wars, there would still be hunger because of mans greed!
Religion also plays a part but I think that we are treading dangerous water here and shouldn't even go there.
We didn't rob other countries of their Empire we just got rich grabbing land and making the British Empire which as you are well aware does no longer exist. The countries that we are talking about are European and we didn't take them over Pesky Wabbit!!
If we went the communist way for the whole world maybe it could all be shared but Would you like to live like the Chinese and Russian people had to for many many years?
I certainly wouldn't - and even though they were all meant to be equal - the leaders were all feathering their nests.
It is a sad fact of life Pesky Wabbit - life is not fair! You just have to make the best of what you have!
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Re: asylum seekers there is a myth buster HERE (http://www.redcar-cleveland.gov.uk/main.nsf/Printable/5DF00A83D3CD982480256F39004BA384?OpenDocument) which refutes most of the claims made by the media which people seem to believe.
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Q.WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE?
A. Sadly one that spends way too much time reading the Daily Mail. As ever its chinese whispers so and so saying to so and so and before you know it some one takes it as gospel.
All these people complaining about foreigners and immigrants should never forget that in WW2 we turned away boats with Jews in and sent them back to Germany and no doubt there were people who complained about foreigners and immigrants stealing our so called wealth. Hasn't the Goverment just invested £25 billion pounds in Northern Rock with out the taxpayers say so?
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Perhaps you don't think I have a right to intervene in a thread about your society as I am from the Netherlands.
But I do want to object to statements regarding 'foreign bodies' wearing fashionable clothes society supposedly paid for.
How do you know this?
Born and raised in the Netherlands, my parents and me owning Dutch passports, I am one of the foreign bodies you can see in the streets wearing fashionable, expensive clothes.
I did pay for them myself, I earn my living and pay my taxes.
It is also statements like these that make me wonder what kind of society we are in.
well said Garjan, and thank you for your post.
i am english, my parents are british, born and raised here so i'm not bringing up this point becuase it applies to me.
but it makes me sick when i hear people talk in such a way about immigrants- don't believe all you ready, because many immigrants are here to work hard, and that's what many of them do.
what would you do in their situation? would you not want a better life for yourself?
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Gargan, its a known fact that foreign people seeking asylum/or coming over here within the EU from poorer countries to this country are given a lump sum from tax payers money, and housing too.
I think you are wrong on this one Sprinbokgirlie. I think someone has been telling you porkies.
Not quite. Its the truth!!
They get £250 and a roof over their heads!
not every single immigrant gets this.
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also, thank u baccyman for that post.
i really should learn to read the whole topic before posting, shouldn't i :P
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There is a difference between an immigrant and an asylum seeker, so although Baccy Man's link is informative, it only covers a fraction of the story.
From a brief look the information on this site seems objective and based on Office of National Statistics reports.
http://www.workpermit.com/news/2007-12-12/uk/one-five-babies-migrant-born-ons-statistics.htm (http://www.workpermit.com/news/2007-12-12/uk/one-five-babies-migrant-born-ons-statistics.htm)
With regard to why migrants cost Councils money, this article may help
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=411495&in_page_id=2 (http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=411495&in_page_id=2)
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Here is another myth buster which clearly describes the differences between migrants, illegal immigrants & asylum seekers & what they are entitled to.
http://www.pendle.gov.uk/site/scripts/download_info.php?fileID=2082
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Very informative. Thanks Baccy Man.
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Daily mail readers don't know the difference between a refugee, an asylum seeker, an illegal immigrant or an economic migrant. They don't want to, and wouldn't know one if they met one. Of course their darling niece or nephew from Australia who'd overstayed their visa - now, they couldn't be a "proper" illegal immigrant, now could they? Doesn't apply to them.
For information for those who would like to find out more about asylum seekers and refugees perhaps spending some time on these sites would quash any notions that they have a comfortable life sponging benefits and housing from those who "deserve" them:
Refugee council http://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/ (http://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/)
Refugee Action http://www.refugee-action.org.uk/ (http://www.refugee-action.org.uk/)
NCACD http://www.ncadc.org.uk/ (http://www.ncadc.org.uk/)
Asylum Aid http://www.asylumaid.org.uk/ (http://www.asylumaid.org.uk/)
UNHCR http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/home (http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/home)
And check out articles on Asylum - there have been plenty in the Independent.
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Would it make you happier if WE had to walk miles to the nearest well for water to even out life's inbalances?
I don't think that would be very sensible now, would it? However to ensure everybody on the plant has access to fresh water, is, surly, a human rite.
We have more than others due to hard work by our forefathers. We are lucky in the country of (most of us) our birth.
Correct. Our forefathers worked very hard packing ships with Africans, so they could take them for a 'holiday' on the Carabean plantations.
They worked hard, exterminating tribes in southern Africa. They worked hard subduing the peoples of the Indian subcontinent.
It is an unfortunate fact that if we spread the worlds resources equally around the world, there would still be wars, there would still be hunger because of mans greed!
So, if you were in charge, would you declare war on anyone who is not British so that you could have a better quality life?
We didn't rob ... we just got rich grabbing ...
And the difference being ?
We didn't rob other countries of their Empire we just got rich grabbing land ...
Grab land, kill anyone who objected, grabbed all obvious natural resources (eg. diamonds), made the indigenous work the land and then tax them for working their own land.
The British Empire which as you are well aware does no longer exist.
I think they call it The Common Wealth now. A collection of counties, many of which are Third World, which the British have some responsibility for their state today. Buy, hey, let them starve, nothing to do with us.
The countries that we are talking about are European and we didn't take them over Pesky Wabbit!!
Strange, I thought this thread was about Society. The clue is in the subject title.
It is a sad fact of life Pesky Wabbit - life is not fair! You just have to make the best of what you have!
Quite right, life is not fair. This country, has built up its fortune on the backs of others, and when it comes to repay some of that debt, we don't want to know.
You just have to make the best of what you have!
The government that YOU elected has given peoples of other countries certain rights to come to this country. All they are doing is making the best of what they can.
Is that wrong ?
As you state, The British Empire no longer exists, and things have been going down hill ever since. Is it not time we woke up and realize that we no longer rule the world, and should be integrating into it instead.
Should India and China be prohibiting British subjects from entering their country and cashing in on their booming economies, just as the Eastern Europeans/Asians are doing here ?
As stated elsewhere, we have a generation of 'can't work, won't work' in this country. In 10 years time, they will be the mainstay of the British economy. Who will be funding your state pension then ?
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Pesky Wabbit
You don't agree with me then?!!
Old Bird
::)
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Pesky Wabbit
You don't agree with me then?!!
Old Bird
::)
^^ (http://bestsmileys.com/lol/21.gif)
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We have more than others due to hard work by our forefathers. We are lucky in the country of (most of us) our birth.
Correct. Our forefathers worked very hard packing ships with Africans, so they could take them for a 'holiday' on the Carabean plantations.
They worked hard, exterminating tribes in southern Africa. They worked hard subduing the peoples of the Indian subcontinent.
Yes our forefathers......bugger all to do with me!!
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Hey Guys,remember my poor elderly chap who was locked up for non payment of council tax four pages ago???He is feeling kinda neglected :D :D :D :D
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Betula - did you know what you were starting when you let us know about your old chap? :o
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Q.WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE?
A. Sadly one that spends way too much time reading the Daily Mail. As ever its chinese whispers so and so saying to so and so and before you know it some one takes it as gospel.
D'you know, despite redclangers accusations, I have never read the Daily Mail! In fact I haven't bought a newspaper for years.
valmarg
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Hey Guys,remember my poor elderly chap who was locked up for non payment of council tax four pages ago???He is feeling kinda neglected :D :D :D :D
As I said then, the lunatics are running the asylum.
In yesterday's paper there was a story about a shopkeeper who was confronted by a knife wielding, serial criminal for his takings. In the ensuing struggle the robber was killed. Guess what!! the shopkeeper is being accused of murder.
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D'you know, despite redclangers accusations, I have never read the Daily Mail! In fact I haven't bought a newspaper for years.
valmarg
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Sorry can't get the hang of this much![quote author=Old bird
D'you know, despite redclangers accusations, I have never read the Daily Mail! In fact I haven't bought a newspaper for years.
valmarg
What was that Valmarg - in the papers yesterday?!!
I think you will find that a report has gone to the CPS. There is no suggestion at the moment that this guy is being accused for murder but the Police have to follow up and investigate all information to make sure that there was no foul play on the part of the poor shopkeeper.
Potentially, there is a chance of bumping off no good nerks (as allegedly said robber) by other people that may have a grudge against them and then make it appear that they got stabbed in the process. I do not believe that this was the case in this incident but this is why the police have to follow up these incidents.
I bet that he is not charged - but it is police talk for following procedure!
I think it is very easy to jump to conclusions when reading reports in the paper. Sometimes the truth doesn't make interesting reading so is never reported. It is headlines they are after.
Old Bird
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If the old fella is still inside - he's managed 3 days more, so far, than he did the first time around. Unfortunately, the law of the land is that you pay your taxes. This old fella has said that he can afford to pay but refuses to pay and made that decision knowing the consequences. He's not speaking out or protesting on my behalf and I did not ask him to make a stand on my behalf, so I do not feel responsible or sorry for his incarceration - which is the result of a decision he made for himself on his own behalf. But, I do hope he is released soon. ;)
Twinkletoes
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Twinkletoes
What would we have to chat about if he got released?!!!
I totally agree with your sentiments and now I am leaving this topic for everyone else to add the fourpennyworth.
I will go and find something else controversion to play with!
Old Bird
;D
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well you made it a livlier subject for a while there old bird. ;D
Twinkletoes
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Q.WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE?
A. Sadly one that spends way too much time reading the Daily Mail. As ever its chinese whispers so and so saying to so and so and before you know it some one takes it as gospel.
D'you know, despite redclangers accusations, I have never read the Daily Mail! In fact I haven't bought a newspaper for years.
valmarg
Sorry :-[ Torygraph then???? ;D ;)
BTW - from my legal background - all suspiciuous deaths have to be investigated. If we jsut took a killer's (justified or not) word for it, where would we be? Which paper said he was being done for it btw?
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Torygraph said the case would be referred to the CPS for their consideration... pretty sure it didn't say he was being done for it - must have been the Mail :D
I've always found left wing papers just as bad but in the opposite direction. I reckon once you're used to a paper you can mentally adjust as you read to allow for its idiosyncrasies provided it has at least some factual content.
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Torygraph said the case would be referred to the CPS for their consideration... pretty sure it didn't say he was being done for it - must have been the Mail :D
As I said I've never read the Mail.
Let's take another scenario of what a rubbish country this is to live in.
According to today' radio an ex-fighter pilot from WW2 will be demonstrating outside the houses of parliament today.
He fought for the country, he worked all his life, paid his taxes, and in his old age he has been found to be suffering from macular degenerative eye disease. Having paid into the unhealthy service all his life, now, in his old age, he needs treatment. He is being told to bugger off and go blind.
England is not a country t grow old in!!
valmarg
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Valmarg..now that is disgusting.
I am sorry to have to say this, but having been in the position of living in the Uk for 35 years, then in North America for the next 25 or so, then back here for the last 7 years, I do speak from a vantage point of when I say the UK has gone down the toilet. There is so much that is poor now, it is hard knowing where to begin, and I want to say nice things, this is after all my homeland, but the fact is Valmarg is right. Compared to a third world country we are good, but compared to the countries we should be like we really are rubbish.
Sadly rubbish breeds rubbish and I dread to think where it will end.
XX Jeannine
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Two little points which I hope will not result in too much raised blood pressure:
my father-in-law's blindness is the result of macular degeneration and therefore I have walked the NHS walk and talked the NHS talk with him over the past 10 years or so. All NHS contacts have been helpful and supportive and willing to do anything possible to improve his condition, however the bottom line is that there is currently no way of stopping macular degeneration. They are working on replacing the damaged macula just as they currently do with lenses and cataracts but the treatment is still experimental and so cannot be used on us punters yet.
my second point is to do with the honesty and fulness of reporting both in newspapers and radio/TV. Firstly we only get to know what "they" want us to know unless we are prepared to trawl our nets wider. I am in the habit of reading the press and listening to the radio broadcasts of quite a few of our European neighbours and it is most enlightening to see the different points of view. Very often something reported in British media is viewed totally differently by several other countries. This sometimes leads me to suspect that reporting here is partisan and misleading at least some of the time. Anyway newspapers in the UK are so dumbed down nowadays that it's hard to find any serious reporting.
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the kind of society we live is when you come from a differant country you get all the benefits available, housing, new car, that our British oap have paid for and most of them (if they are like my dad and been carefull with there money and own there house) have never drained the system as much as the influx of foreigners has. my dad is 81 has his own private pension and three little part time jobs that he HAS to have to help make ends meet. my mother who stayed at home to look after us kids is 71 and she has a small pension and has 7 jobs to help dad with the house hold bills they don't live beyond there means don't claim benefits and never have so yes it makes me sick when you see another foreign body on the streets wearing the latest clothes that you just know you have paid for society sucks and what is great about Britain any more
Tohellwithweeds
I cannot imagine that your parents need to work as many jobs as you say just to live!
Surely you could help them in providing them with sufficient veg to help them out. You say they don't spend beyond their means - sounds to me as if they do. The joint retirement pension plus their small pension should take care of the basics plus food, heat, light and power. I cannot imagine that if you were able to help them out a bit with veg etc from your lottie they couldn't slow down a bit!
I do and will continue to do so live very cheaply. I eat mostly vegetables, I run a car, I pay a mortgage, insurances, heat and light and I still manage to have a bit of fun! Just like hundreds of thousands of us. When I do eventually retire, I will not be able to afford to run a car but everything else should be OK. I am sure that there aren't many pensioners doing what your folk are doing just to survive. There are many that do manage to survive - albeit not living grandly - on the basic state pension.
yes old bird they do HAVE to work as they DONT claim any benefits as they have said "we never did before so why should we now"and i don't think paying there bills is living beyond there means my dad goes out to the pub once a year with us and he has half a bitter and that's on his birthday my mum doesn't drink or smoke and as for giving them veg from my lotty i only got it last year so i haven't planted any thing yet and when i do i will be giving them veg but i don't think that will pay there council tax
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the kind of society we live is when you come from a differant country you get all the benefits available, housing, new car, that our British oap have paid for and most of them (if they are like my dad and been carefull with there money and own there house) have never drained the system as much as the influx of foreigners has.
Nope, the actual facts are these....
Immigrants account for just 8.7% of the population yet they contribute 10.2% of all income tax collected.
Immigrants contribute 33.8 billion of the total revenue in the UK, this increased to 41.2 billion in 2003/04
Actually a lower take up of means tested benefits amongst immigrant population and there are more minority ethnic individuals in the bottom 5th of income distribution in the UK. In fact the Pakistani/Bangladeshi population are subject to rates of poverty four times that of white nationals. This is through a combination of factors such as poor housing/low pay/inadequate pensions. There is a reliance upon other family members for sponsorship and strict rules as to what if any benefits they are able to claim. If I remember rightly they were only receiving 70% of the means tested benefits that their white counterparts were able to claim.
Today's position on immigration is this... 12% are EU Citizens, 31% are Commonwealth citizens, 38% are 'other' foreigners such as New Zealanders/Australians and 18% are returning Brits.
I'm not saying there aren't those milking the system, but I can tell you I know far more white British Nationals doing exactly the same thing.
Another point to make is this, racial discrimination is still rife amongst social institutions, you are more likely to be diagnosed with a psychotic disorder and sectioned for it if you are a black afro-caribbean male, if you attempt to claim a crisis loan which has to be done with a face to face interview (although I think there is now a move to do these applications via telephone) as an ethnic minority you are 5 times more likely to be turned down than you would if you were white. There are more black males in prison than white, yet in the majority of their cases, their offence was a lesser one, yet their sentence harsher.
"Great" Britain - I don't think so. Arrogant Britain, yes.
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Yes Posie,our country does have a lot of faults,that is why I started this thread but faults can be rectified.
I think we live in a great country and in the main I am proud to be British and not ashamed or shy to say it.I do not think we are arrogant.On the whole I think we are a very tolerant nation.People are desperate to live in our country.Why do you think that is?
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On the whole I think we are a very tolerant nation.People are desperate to live in our country.Why do you think that is?
To be honest I seem to be coming across more intolerant than tolerant people lately. I guess I'm getting a little bit jaded, especially with the whole moral panic over immigrants and the massive amount of right wing propaganda that's out there. I just wish people would accept that we're all individuals and stop using race or age or gender as a reason to attack people or keep them down. According to my lecturer today there are actually more people going out of our country than coming in. On my pink fluffy cloud, everyone would have an allotment, everyone would get on and everyone would be colour blind! ;D
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Posie well done... why don't we have a Smilie that applauds . XX Jeannine
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I have watched this debate evolve and as I am not one for confrontation let it slip by - but feel that maybe I need to speak up. I am not sure whether this will be read or received well - but here goes.
I have had this same discussion with a number of people in the past about the UK going down the tubes. I am not massively patriotic, but I am proud of the way that this country responds to others in crisis, whether they are in the UK or abroad. Comic Relief, Children in Need, Tsunami appeal and many others demonstrate the caring attitude of the majority.
I have also been one of the ones that emigrated to another country and returned here again - so something to measure the UK against as well.
All in all I think the UK is one of the best countries in the world to live in. People may complain about the welfare system and the NHS, but where else is the safety net so secure that everyone is entitled to be supported if they need it. If you go into hospital after an accident - you don't worry that if your insurance isn't up to date and that you will lose your house. If you are made redundant or become incapable of work, the state, supported by our taxes, will support you.
I despair when I hear of the current "lazy" generation. They are like any previous generations - the majority wanting to work and better themselves and a few who are easy targets because they have faults. I am sure the mods and rockers of the 50's and the hippies of the 60's were also seen by the then tax paying generation to be wasters. Maybe you were one, and maybe you believe this current generation of youth to be the worst? Believe me they will come up trumps and probably be complaining about the youth of today given another 20 years.
We as a people have emigrated, and we as a country have also had a level of immigration, it isn't something that we cannot cope with. After all we are a people who at our hearts cherish tolerance, acceptance and above all respect of others. We take this to the extent that we have embraced freedom of speech to the point when even something is controversial and offensive to others we will defend it. We even go to war to protect these principles.
The old chap who refuses to pay his council tax is doing precisely this. Given a law and a judgement he disagrees with he is making his own protest, in a peaceful but very public way. We need to respect that, someone in this country will always be protesting about something because that is their right. Sometimes they will get the law changed because large numbers protest - remember the poll tax. Sometimes it is a single protest and nothing changes, but the individual will have had their say and probably feel much better about it. After all this is a democracy.
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In the UK we live in a 'control freak' society.
valmarg
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my dad is 81 has his own private pension and three little part time jobs that he HAS to have to help make ends meet. my mother who stayed at home to look after us kids is 71 and she has a small pension and has 7 jobs to help dad with the house hold bills they don't live beyond there means don't claim benefits and never have so yes it makes me sick when you see another foreign body on the streets wearing the latest clothes that you just know you have paid for society sucks and what is great about Britain any more
Tohellwithweeds
I assume that your father paid his National Insurance Contributions when he was working so therefore would have a state pension in addition to his private pension. Together with your mother's small pension that must surely be enough to live on. One assumes that there is no mortgage at their age. Maybe they are paying rent but this can be reduced once incomes fall. Council Tax credit can also help those on small incomes. I think you should speak to your parents as something doesn't ring true here. Perhaps they just prefer working or maybe they are not claiming those benefits which they have paid into.
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Today's position on immigration is this... 12% are EU Citizens, 31% are Commonwealth citizens, 38% are 'other' foreigners such as New Zealanders/Australians and 18% are returning Brits.
New Zealanders/Australians? 'other foreigners'.I always thought, and was taught that they were part of the Commonwealth. Still, you learn something new every day :o :o
valmarg
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I stand corrected, obviously didn't write that down correctly during the lecture.
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New Zealanders/Australians? 'other foreigners'.I always thought, and was taught that they were part of the Commonwealth. Still, you learn something new every day :o :o
valmarg
They still need a visa to work/study, and they are immigrants. If they overstay their visa they are illegal immigrants.
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I have the solution!!
Judging by the comments there are alot of people unhappy with this country so if its so bad why not leave then there would be plenty of houses and money for the immigrants so many seem to dispise.
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Simple as that Silly Billy!
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No, it is not as simple as that.
Work took us out of England originally not a vision of a better life,and we always wanted to come back to retire at home.
We did, we draw no British pensions although my husband is entitled to one on the contributions he made before he left.
I am still working but will not get a pension either as I went to work here at 57 and only paid contributions for 3 years before I reached 60, after that I was not allowed to contribute at all, even though I have worked for 6 years since then.
Returning is not an option for most folks and bear in mind we were coming home!!
To say simply go back is unkind and frankly I for one am thoroughly hurt by the comment. I never thought I would start to cry about a comment I saw here but I have.
This comment has made me feel like an unwanted outsider and it must be much worse for those folks who have left their home to start here.
And this because I was honest enough to say the country that I loved and was so looking forward to coming back to has detiorated to the point that it becoming an uncomfortable place to be but I am not about to abandon my home, I was born here, of stock that was for generations.
Your remark has made ne feel like an alien and very very upset.
I see this all the time in my job, one person says a mean thing and another immediately backs them up, while the person in question who is already hurting is double kicked.
I am now so distressed and I am English, and as such I have a right to say what I see and I truly believe this country is rapidly going down the hill as a place to live. I shouldn't be told clear out then.
XX Jeannine
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I can't believe ( OK I can) some of the ignorant xenophobic nonsense Little Englanders espouse. The vast majority of immigrants to this country arrive here for exactly the same reasons as we might move to Spain, Canada, Australia or wherever else. Somewhere along the line we think that as white, civilized British we should be welcome wherever we decide to move for a better life. How outraged are we to learn that some Spanish don't like us taking over areas of their country or to hear that some Australians dislike 'whinging Poms'. It's all rather different when less civilized Eastern Europeans or worse, darker coloured people arrive here. Every day I pass Eastern European 'scroungers' washing cars, I see well-behaved Asian children paying better attention at school than their 'British' counterparts and going on to prop up the National Health Service after University. Of course there is a small percentage who arrive on our shores with the intention of milking the system, but I don't have to walk far to see far larger numbers of native born doing exactly the same. We need to stop assuming that all African immigrants are Nigerian scammers and all Easter-Europeans are linked to the Russian Mafia.
As to the suggestion that 'so if its so bad why not leave'. Fine, but on the basis that people in the rest of the World have the same right to leave wherever they're not happy and go somewhere they might be.
Oh, yes, and welcome back to the UK Jeannine.
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I think it's quite ignorant not to mention ridiculous to be told, "if you don't like how your country is being run then leave it" What sort of answer is that?! Why shouldn't us citizens have a point of view about our own country? Pfft.
Jeannine don't be upset by petty comments. Sometimes people just don't think about what they're saying and even less about the impact it might have on others. You are most certainly not an unwanted outsider and don't you think such a thing! :-* :)
I'm pretty much in agreement with DJB's post. I've always felt that if someone's led a terrible life and they're coming here to the UK gives them a better chance, then why deny them that - my issue is with those who travel across many safer countries than their own to get to the UK - why do they do that? Hmmmm? I've not got a problem with genuine asylum seekers and people who do indeed settle here and make a better life for themselves - including employment. What I begrudge (foreign or not!) is working all week for MY money for MY life and MY family and having to cough up for scrotes and moochers who have the chance to work and won't.
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I think its ignorant to comment on a post you clearly haven't read properly. The post I put said "WHY not leave" it didn't say "if you don't like it leave" There is a difference.
I think it's quite ignorant not to mention ridiculous to be told, "if you don't like how your country is being run then leave it" What sort of answer is that?! Why shouldn't us citizens have a point of view about our own country? Pfft.
Jeannine don't be upset by petty comments. Sometimes people just don't think about what they're saying and even less about the impact it might have on others. You are most certainly not an unwanted outsider and don't you think such a thing! :-* :)
I'm pretty much in agreement with DJB's post. I've always felt that if someone's led a terrible life and they're coming here to the UK gives them a better chance, then why deny them that - my issue is with those who travel across many safer countries than their own to get to the UK - why do they do that? Hmmmm? I've not got a problem with genuine asylum seekers and people who do indeed settle here and make a better life for themselves - including employment. What I begrudge (foreign or not!) is working all week for MY money for MY life and MY family and having to cough up for scrotes and moochers who have the chance to work and won't.
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There is no difference at all if you are on the receiving end of it
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I don't normally join in with these threads, like Jeannine, I get quite upset if folks hurt others with their comments..but...
how many people on here can say they are full blooded english..my grandparents on my dad's side were italian, does this make me a foreigner ?
compared to lots of countries we are very lucky, count your blessings, Jeannine, I hope you're feeling a little less upset now, many of us disagree with things said, we just don't contribute to the thread :-*
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I think its ignorant to comment on a post you clearly haven't read properly.
You said: "if its so bad why not leave"
I said: "if you don't like how your country is being run then leave it"
Semantics, sunshine, semantics.
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If it wasn't for the fact that oh and are too old to emigrate. we would be out of this rubbish country.
Drugs being withheld from pensioners, who have paid in to the system all their lives. Just because the drugs are too expensive.
Pensioners with macular degenerative eye disease are not permitted treatment because it is to expensive, so are given the option of pay privately, or go blind.
As I previously said, England is not a good country to grow old in.
valmarg
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Well said Manics! On the ball as usual. Given the countless waves of invasion of these British Isles (even the Brits were invaders = immigrants by the way as were the Angles who gave England her name) there are d**n few of us who are not of b***d race. Hardly any pure Aryans at all actually.
Now I am proud to be Scottish when I think of the many great inventors and scientists of Scottish origin. I love Scotland because it's wild and beautiful and there are huge open spaces where you can breathe and feel glad to be alive. But of my 4 grandparents one was from Yorkshire (surname Beaumont?? Norman conquest perhaps?) one from Lancashire (and his mother was French), one of Irish origins. Only my paternal grandfather was a Scot born and bred ... as far as I know ;) ;)
And what does it really matter? Immigrants are an easy target because they are that little bit different, but hey in my experience most of those folk are the movers and shakers who are prepared to get off their backsides to go and make a better life for themselves and their families. Remember the holocaust? That's what happens when people get jealous of others and use them as a scapegoat for everything that goes wrong.
Anyway I'm rambling. if the UK is going down the tubes - and I don't for a minute think that it is - then let's not blame the immigrants. If I were to blame anyone - apart from myself that is for my lethargy in doing something about what i think is wrong- then it would be myself for .. Oops I've said that already.
Have you ever noticed how our attitudes to others become self-fulfilling prophesies? Blessed are the peacemakers .....
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"There landed yesterday at Southampton from the transport Cheshire over 600 so-called refugees, their passage having been paid out of the Lord Mayor's fund; and upon testimony of the ship's officers, there was scarce a hundred of them that had, by right, deserved such help, and these were the Englishmen of the party. The rest were Jews. The ship seemed alive with them. There were Russian Jews, Polish Jews, German Jews, Peruvian Jews, all kinds of Jews, all manner of Jews. They fought and jostled for the foremost places at the gang-ways; they rushed, and pushed and struggled into the troop shed, where the Mayor of Southampton had provided free refreshments…they fought for places on the train..."
"There were a few quiet, sad-faced Englishmen-men who had gone to South Africa, who had made a little money, who had lost their all through the war. One man, with scarcely a rag of warm clothing on him, whose only asset was a tin of sandwiches, admitted he was dead broke, but refused to take a half-penny."
That was the Daily Mail 3 Feb 1900 reporting the arrival of 350 Jewish refugees. This marked the start of a successful national campaign against refugees. The refugees referred to in this article had arrived in Southampton on board the Cheshire having fled increased hostility and anti-semitism in South Africa since the start of the Boer War.
Nothing's changed.
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one of my ancestors on my mum's side was of the fraser ? frazer ?clan, anne, maybe we're feuding cousins.. ;D
bit of a heinz variety, me ;D
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I'm keeping my mouth shut. For once....
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there is a huge divide between the have and the have nots in society, that is regardless of age group or location. both my husband and i have been married before and have children by former spouses. now these children for varying reason live with their other parents and we pay maintenance. now i have absolutely no problem with doing this. the CSA was one of the cruelest inventions i ever came across in my life. now both hubby and i earn fairly decent wages, i am a nurse he is a chef.( however if you took into account the amount of unpaid hours we do it brings the wages down somewhat), when i was training as a nurse and earning £120 a week the csa deemed it necessary for me to pay £25 a week plus arrears (by the time they sort the case it is always in arrears) this left me less then £95 a week for everything however i did work all hours god sent in order to stay out of debt. now you may not think this is a problem but my ex husband is a self employed builder with a very clever accountant so each year his tax level was minimum and his income very nicely thankyou (due to cash payments). now hubbys ex wife, has 2 children by him and one by the new man living with her who works full time but she doesnt declare he lives with her, we willingly pay up every month plus half school trips, uniofrms, shoes etc etc.
hubby and i could never afford to buy our own house yet both other parents are doing so, have brand new cars (we have a newish one now) and one has exotic holidays every year and one is away most weekends and school holidays, but more importantly then that they dont have to work the hours or shifts we do to make their income up. as i said i am totally happy to pay for the children we love them all dearly and do everything we can for them and we are not living on the poverty line but we dont go out often, rarely drink but we do enjoy a holiday every couple of years.
as regards to pensioners, in my ward i come across those who have plenty and those who have nothing, even if they have the money to pay for care services they need there are no services to be paid for, there are not enough carers etc etc. there was a pensioner in my town who also went to prison for not paying her council tax. someone anonymously paid it and she was furious she too could have paid in fact next time she did in pennies.
even if more money were given to pensioners there are a minority that would not spend it, they are surviving on very little, saving every penny upkeeping a large old family house in order to give it all to their children, i know we had a patient who came in unkempt with hypothermia due to this very reason. some of them dont want money they want company, someone to eat their meal with, the meal they dont bother to cook cos its too much trouble for one person.
i dont pretend to know the answers i earn my money i pay my dues and the two do tally just, i cant imagine what it is like for our elderly who cannot afford it and have to worry every day, and i dont know enough about immigrants etc to comment i only know that at work 90% of the kitchen workers are now Polish who speak very little English, whilst i have no problem with them working there i need them to be able to understand me when i want food for a patient with allergies etc. i work with a very varied amount of nationalities and dont believe i am racist in anyway i dont however think it is too much to expect them to be able to communicate with me the patients the relatives etc etc
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If someone refused to pay their Car Tax because of their age, would that make things easier then?
They still use the same services as us, we will have to pay it when we get older. If they want treating as equals then thats what they have to do, pay up like us all!
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Oo eck! Hope you still feel that way when you're 70! I think maybe you need to get in touch with your feminine side?Today's pensioners grew up in a very different world from now - at least young folk now know that they need to save like b****y if they want to have a life when they retire.
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But at the end of the day our generation is buggered - We have no pension plans to speak of - All that money has now gone, and we are going to be worse off unless we cough up a huge amount now ::)
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If someone refused to pay their Car Tax because of their age, would that make things easier then?
They still use the same services as us, we will have to pay it when we get older. If they want treating as equals then that's what they have to do, pay up like us all!
Lord save us from people like nick 65.Think I am frightened to grow old.But hey Nick we all like something for nothing.You seem fairly keen on advertising your business for free on this site,to say nothing of your ebay links. :(
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Oo eck! Hope you still feel that way when you're 70! I think maybe you need to get in touch with your feminine side?Today's pensioners grew up in a very different world from now - at least young folk now know that they need to save like b****y if they want to have a life when they retire.
I'd like to know how you save, with your bills going up all the time. >:(
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I think you are being a bit hard on Nick. Being a pensioner does not mean that you will be a lot worse off than someone with children who goes to work and has a mortgage or rent to pay. When my children were small we were extremely hard up. I couldn't get a job for a while because my children were under 5 years of age and employers didn't want to employ me in case I needed time off to look after them when they were ill.
My in-laws at that time were pensioners on Supplementary benefits and they had far more money to spend after taking out their expenses. Out of what we had left, we had to run an old car so my OH could get to work. Our mortgage went up from 7% to 15½% and we lived off cheap food such as baked beans and eggs as most of my OH's salary went on the mortgage, rates, fuel etc. My son's shoes had holes in and if it wasn't for my mother buying him a new pair I don't know what we would have done.
Todays couples have had to take out greater mortgages to get themselves on the housing ladder and I imagine a lot of them are as hard up as we were then. It would be grossly unfair to expect them to subsidise the over 60's on car Tax etc.
I have two friends in different parts of the country who don't know each other and they both receive Pension Credit. One gets subsidised rent while the other gets a reduction of Council Tax. Both friends go off on several holidays a year including going abroad. They are both frugal with their cooking and have healthy diets, making their own soups etc. Neither smoke or drink apart from the odd glass of wine if they go out for a meal. They both run cars.
I also have a cousin who is in her seventies. She and her husband receive good work pensions and go on cruises two or three times a year. Surely they should pay their way in society and not expect to get free Council and Car taxes.
Because of the baby boom after the second world war we know that there are a lot more pensioners now. If everything was free for them this country would come to a halt.
Help for those pensioners that are needy..........YES but blanket help for all over 60's....a definite NO as it just wouldn't work.
These are the views of a 63 year old!!............Me.
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Froglegs I often read advice on saving at a site called The Motley Fool -www.fool.com (http://www.fool.com) . One of the things they point out is that the earlier you start saving the more you'll make, given the power of compound interest. I agree with Pauline that when you have a mortgage and/or young children saving is really hard, on the other hand it is a good idea to get used to regular saving. Supposing, for example, that you save 5% of your weekly/monthly income to start with, and when you get a pay rise put half of it into savings, after a bit you will have a tidy sum stashed away for emergencies. Put it in a cash ISA and you don't pay tax on the interest. As of April 2008 you can save £7200 a year. I'm not suggesting that you have that amount available to save but every little helps (where have i heard that before?? ;D) Just say to yourself: I earn £x less 5% and budget on 95% of your income.
And that's the next thing: write down what you buy/pay for and make a budget that includes it all. If budget exceeds income then you need to do some thinking about how to change that, cos if you don't you will end up in debt - which is bad.
We all spend loads of money on things we don't need (look at our seed hoarding for example). It's not bad in itself, but if you want to save, and we all need to save, it bears looking at a bit closer.
And this is horribly off topic so in conclusion - we're an allotment society. ;)
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..... I agree with Pauline that when you have a mortgage and/or young children saving is really hard, on the other hand it is a good idea to get used to regular saving. Supposing, for example, that you save 5% of your weekly/monthly income to start with, and when you get a pay rise put half of it into savings, after a bit you will have a tidy sum stashed away for emergencies. Put it in a cash ISA and you don't pay tax on the interest. As of April 2008 you can save £7200 a year. I'm not suggesting that you have that amount available to save but every little helps (where have i heard that before?? ;D) Just say to yourself: I earn £x less 5% and budget on 95% of your income.
And that's the next thing: write down what you buy/pay for and make a budget that includes it all. If budget exceeds income then you need to do some thinking about how to change that, cos if you don't you will end up in debt - which is bad.
We all spend loads of money on things we don't need (look at our seed hoarding for example). It's not bad in itself, but if you want to save, and we all need to save, it bears looking at a bit closer.
It's not that simple Grawrc. My husband is a Civil Servant and since the 1970's his pay has diminished in real terms as various Governments have decided to make an example of public sector workers by giving pay rises less than the cost of living. There were some years when he didn't get any pay rises at all. We could never have saved while we were bringing up the children. They received full grants for universities as my husband's income allowed this and we also got Council Tax rebates when we lived in Scotland. We never had any extra money to save.
My father was much better off than we ever were yet he was just an insurance agent and didn't have the responsibilities at work that my husband has. He didn't work as hard either yet he was able to support my mother who stayed at home. He used to buy a new car every five years, something we have never been able to do.
It is only in the last few years that we have been able to put a little money aside but nothing like the amounts you quote. When we do save, we end up spending it on household items. We had second hand utility dining furniture when we married 33 years ago but the chairs got too dangerous to sit on last year so we bought some new chairs and are now saving for a table to go with them. We have had to replace fridges, freezers, washing machines, mowers etc. The car is probably the next thing that will need replacing as it is ten years old but we are still paying for it. Despite all this I know we are better off than a lot of people.
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"There landed yesterday at Southampton from the transport Cheshire over 600 so-called refugees, their passage having been paid out of the Lord Mayor's fund; and upon testimony of the ship's officers, there was scarce a hundred of them that had, by right, deserved such help, and these were the Englishmen of the party. The rest were Jews. The ship seemed alive with them. There were Russian Jews, Polish Jews, German Jews, Peruvian Jews, all kinds of Jews, all manner of Jews. They fought and jostled for the foremost places at the gang-ways; they rushed, and pushed and struggled into the troop shed, where the Mayor of Southampton had provided free refreshments…they fought for places on the train..."
"There were a few quiet, sad-faced Englishmen-men who had gone to South Africa, who had made a little money, who had lost their all through the war. One man, with scarcely a rag of warm clothing on him, whose only asset was a tin of sandwiches, admitted he was dead broke, but refused to take a half-penny."
That was the Daily Mail 3 Feb 1900 reporting the arrival of 350 Jewish refugees. This marked the start of a successful national campaign against refugees. The refugees referred to in this article had arrived in Southampton on board the Cheshire having fled increased hostility and anti-semitism in South Africa since the start of the Boer War.
Nothing's changed.
And then there was my hubby's grandfather from Scotland who fought in the Boer War ( an orphan taken in under age because he knew the smithy business) and when the war ended his army was told they weren't wanted back home in Scotland anymore. Instead the govt. would send them either to Australia or USA. He and a buddy flipped a coin and USA it was. He never talked about Scotland after that. Scotland's loss- he was intelligent, very hard working and a good father of 5.
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Froglegs I often read advice on saving at a site called The Motley Fool -www.fool.com (http://www.fool.com) .
Excellent advice. Their articles on mortgages, credit cards, savings, pensions, investments, tax etc. have saved me easily a five figure sum of money over the 10 years since the fool.co.uk website started. Boring stuff, but remember your bank's pension or mortgage "advisors" don't have your best interests at heart, they are salespeople.
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Unless I am missing something, the Motley Fool seems to cover the USA and not over here.
I like this site:
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/
As well as savings, it has a really interesting section on Council Tax. Just enter it in the search text. The site will tell you the bands of other houses in your area (good to snoop on the neighbours). If they changed hands in the past few years, it will tell you what they sold for. Very informative for nosy people like me.
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Unless I am missing something, the Motley Fool seems to cover the USA and not over here.
Try http://www.fool.co.uk/
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try moneysavingexpert.com they've advice about everything you could want ;D
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Oops sorry! Did I give the wrong link. :-[
Pauline don't get me wrong: of course there's no one solution that fits all but I think you'd agree that most of us but certainly not all could save a little if we really wanted to. Getting the saving habit is the only way I know to end up with money in the bank even if it's the price of a pint or a packet of fags that gets saved. Of course there will be exceptions.
Like Ceratonia, the Motley Fool has alerted me to many scams and saved me much dosh over the years it has existed. it's my favourite, but I do look at the money saving expert as well. When it comes to finance I need every bit of help I can get.
Anyway sorry for hijacking this thread.
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But at the end of the day our generation is buggered - We have no pension plans to speak of - All that money has now gone, and we are going to be worse off unless we cough up a huge amount now ::)
ALL say a huge 'THANK YOU' to Gordon Brown. He is the person that singlehandedly ruined the final salary pension schemes.
Oh, I forgot that is only for the private sector. The public sector still has fantastic final pay pensions, courtesy of the council/income tax payer. We subsidise what Gordon Brown has taken away from the rest of us!!
valmarg
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But at the end of the day our generation is buggered - We have no pension plans to speak of - All that money has now gone, and we are going to be worse off unless we cough up a huge amount now ::)
ALL say a huge 'THANK YOU' to Gordon Brown. He is the person that singlehandedly ruined the final salary pension schemes.
Oh, I forgot that is only for the private sector. The public sector still has fantastic final pay pensions, courtesy of the council/income tax payer. We subsidise what Gordon Brown has taken away from the rest of us!!
valmarg
The fall in the value of shares is what ruined final salary pensions. I am no fan of Gordon Brown but I am sure you must hold him responsible every time you get a cold. Bring back Thatcher? Most of this country's problems can still be traced back to Thatcher. There may have been an apparent boom at the end of the eighties but it was a paper thin sham. it was this boom with no substance that led to Black Wednesday which is what ultimately sowed the seeds for the current pension crisis - that and an aging politician. I am afraid that the Thatcher that so many hanker after was nothing more than a very feint mirage when it actually came to achieving anything positive in the long term.
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It was nothing to do with the fall in share prices that ruined final salary pensions, it was Gordon Brown removing the ability of pension funds to claim back the tax on dividends. He did that in the belief that the Stock Market was rock solid, and nothing he could do would change that. Wrong Gordon!! £5 billion a year, at least, he has leeched out of pension funds in the past ten years.
State employees, ie teachers, council employees, police, etc all have their final pay pensions protected at the expense of the public sector taxpayer, at the moment!!!"
My memory goes back a bit further to the mid-late 70's, when eyebrows Healey was going cap-in-hand to the International Monetary Fund to bail this country out of the nuts. Inflation was c. 27%. The 'English disease' ie strikes were the norm.
We are drifting back into the same situation. Police wanting the right to strike. Council staff striking. Days lost to industrial action!!
You give that repulsive man Brown the courtesy of calling him Gordon. Why do you insist on calling Margaret Thatcher 'Thatcher'?
I'm not saying everything she did was perfect, but it was a d**n sight better than the Labour governments we had had in the past.
One thing she did, but handled badly was the Poll Tax. It was a much fairer system than the one we had previously, and have now.
Previously, mother in law lived next door to a family of four. Mother, husband and two children earning. Mother in law a widowed pensioner. Under the rates system both households paid the same. Under the Poll Tax system it was more evenly distributed.
valmarg
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Previously, mother in law lived next door to a family of four. Mother, husband and two children earning. Mother in law a widowed pensioner. Under the rates system both households paid the same. Under the Poll Tax system it was more evenly distributed.
valmarg
Your widowed mother did not get a 25% reduction in her Council Tax Valmarg? Why was that?
Margaret Thatcher did a lot of damage to our country. She made the top 5% of the richest people eight times richer whereas the poor became worse off. She herself became a millionaire and there was no trickle down effect to those at the bottom. She sold off all our assets for very little.
Margaret Thatcher got rid of employees in hospitals, offices and schools, replacing them with agency staff. Standards of cleanliness fell dramatically. It will take decades for us to recover from the destructive things that she did.
I agree that this Labour Government have not been very much better but they are a slight improvement on what we had with Thatcher and Major in power. NHS waiting lists have fallen dramatically and standards of teaching in our schools is far better now than it has ever been.
I am reading a very enlightening book at the moment, namely "The Selfish Capitalist" by Oliver James. The facts in the book are supported by statistics and other evidence. Anyone who thinks Margaret Thatcher and her Government were good for this country should read this book and find out what really happened.
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thank you paulines7, we too lived , or survived , the thatcher years, and the ted heath days ::)
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One thing she did, but handled badly was the Poll Tax. It was a much fairer system than the one we had previously, and have now.
Previously, mother in law lived next door to a family of four. Mother, husband and two children earning. Mother in law a widowed pensioner. Under the rates system both households paid the same. Under the Poll Tax system it was more evenly distributed.
Thank you. That comment there means I can now ignore everything you say that is political and put it down to complete ignorance and based on self-interest.
I am not a supporter of Council Tax but it least it does have some basis in reality. Richer people generally have more expensive houses so deciding what people pay on the value of their house does have an element of fairness built in. How a tax that has the Duke of Westminster paying the same as someone on the minimum wage can be described as fair and distributive is just laughable. As you are so prone to say - you need to live in the real world. The only fair taxes are based on income and savings. Income Tax is fair. Capital Gains tax is fair. Inheritance Tax is fair (I wonder why it is the Mail and Telegraph that campaign against this tax - oh yeah, because fair taxes mean that the vast majority of their readers pay a higher burden). Council Tax is fairer than Poll Tax but does have some unfairness. VAT is unfair. Personally, I believe in a local income tax which would have most pensioners paying nothing - which is where this thread started.
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I can well remember the Thatcher days.I have two sons now in their thirties.They were both doing apprenticeships ,literally earning a few pounds a week.They both had poll tax bills,with no earnings to pay for it.
I also remember the striking miners coming to the streets of Birmingham to collect money to help support them in the strike.What a mess she made of a lot of working class peoples lives.Do you remember the phase get on your bike.Encouraging families to move away and taking many away from family and friends thus taking away peoples support network especially parents of young children,no Gran or Auntie close by to help with child minding etc.
No tory will ever again get my vote.
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I can well remember the Thatcher days.I have two sons now in their thirties.They were both doing apprenticeships ,literally earning a few pounds a week.They both had poll tax bills,with no earnings to pay for it.
I also remember the striking miners coming to the streets of Birmingham to collect money to help support them in the strike.What a mess she made of a lot of working class peoples lives.Do you remember the phase get on your bike.Encouraging families to move away and taking many away from family and friends thus taking away peoples support network especially parents of young children,no Gran or Auntie close by to help with child minding etc.
No tory will ever again get my vote.
A very good post Betula. Re the "Get on your bike" comment from Tebbit. It is OK to tell working class poor people to move away from where they and their families have grown up but it is not OK to advise a single elderly person rattling around in a 4 bedroom house to downgrade.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wear/5138444.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wear/5138444.stm) >:(
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wear/5138444.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wear/5138444.stm) >:(
Holy cow! >:( >:( >:(
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wear/5138444.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wear/5138444.stm) >:(
I dread to think what some people's reactions are going to be to that one :o
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I work with a 15 year old girl who is about to have her third.Her mother is puuling her own hair out and hates it but short of tying her up what can she do, and yes she is supported by the state,what else can they do?
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Two House bricks for him and a cork for her.
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I have a neighbour who is 29 with 11 children and already bragging about getting pregnant again.
Each child has a different father!!!!.. and cause riot on our estate.
If i was in power i would sterilise them ... because it is irresponsible!!.. esp when living off the state!!.
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Two House bricks for him and a cork for her.
seven different corks at least >:(
this ones even worse
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tyne/7275409.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tyne/7275409.stm). how can you drink3 pints of vodka and orange? >:(
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wear/5138444.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wear/5138444.stm) >:(
I dread to think what some people's reactions are going to be to that one :o
JR would say cut his fingers off!