Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => Allotment Movement => Topic started by: BAK on August 22, 2007, 15:13:48
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We currently have a high demand for plots on our site and a number of plot holders who do little or no cultivation but still hang onto their plots. We have no allotment association and it is up to the parish council to deal with them at the moment.
Does anybody have any guidelines for dealing with such plot holders in a fair but firm manner?
Thanks
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You can get in touch with the council to ask if the person on the plot is not well their might be a good reason why they havn't been to the allotment if their isn't a good reason then the council should give him 4 weeks to sort it out and get it up to scratch and if he still do's nothing about it then the council have the right to pass it on to the next one on the list.
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Could be just laziness. After the probationary period - if a person pays the annual rent then does nothing - the council cant take the plot off them till then year end as the contract fee is paid in full. The council have to wait till the contract ends and then refuse to renew it. The only possible way round this is to ask the tennant if they wish to continue with the plot.
Thats what we get told by or council anyway.
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It's a condition of our tenancy that the plot is kept in decent order. If not, the Council write reminding the plotholder of his/her obligation and will reclaim if no action is taken.
I noticed a lot of strimmer activity on our site after a rumour went round that the Council had been sending out letters. One of the plots near ours was re-let and now looks heaps better.
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We get every tenant to read or have read to them a tenancy agreement which they sign...
We then give every one a little booklet with these in so no one can say they don't know them .
Ours states that you must cultivate at least 2/3 of your plot, strimming wouldn't be deemed cultivation ...
If in breach of these rules they are sent a 1st letter telling them they are in breach of their agreement and giving them a time limit to sort it out .
If no respose from them re illness etc then after the period is up a one month notice to quit is delivered to them personally ..
This may sound harsh but it ain't right letting folks hang on to lotties that may fancy cultivating them at some time when there are folks on a waiting list that want to cultivate them now...
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I wish we could get rid of them that easily... we went to get rid of a plotholder and they called an EGM and we lost.. almost all the committee resigned in protest!
::)
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Could you approach your council to see if you could form an association?
If you did this and set out the rules from the start then you would be able to have these people booted off after the appropriate process has been followed without having to get the council involved.
Having said that, we have an association and it can still be difficult to manage this, as when people get their letters asking them to tidy up they come down and do a little bit and then don't come back for months and the whole thing has to start again.
I'm going to be talking to our members to see if we can revise our rules so that new tennants have a 'probationary period' where they must do certain things and if they don't then they have the plot taken off them. I think a lot of newbies underestimate how difficult it will be becuase often plots are covered in weeds and full of rubbish that needs to be cleared before you can even start!
None of this helps you right now though :(
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Such a difficult one as I know, having just taken over as Plot Secretary! We are independent, so can set our own rules, which helps.
Our problem is that in the past we've always had spare plots, so 'tolerated' folk who did nothing but at least wrote us a cheque. But now we have a waiting list, and I find it very embarrasing standing next to a wilderness explaining to a would-be tenant that actually the plot is taken!
I've recently sent out several letters to 'sleeping' members, giving them 28 days either to contact us to explain why they aren't cultivating the plot, or to start doing something about it. A couple have returned their keys (with apologies), but most have started work, albeit slowly. I know I've displeased a couple of folk, but at least they've been replaced by tenants who are doing something with the plot.
And, interestingly, quite a few plot-holders who didn't receive letters are putting in a bit more effort as well. There's obviously a knock-on effect.
I agree with Suzi - if you can get a number of like-minded people around you, try to form an association and establish a committee to run the site. Then you'll have a lot more clout about who comes and who stays. And a probationary period is a good idea - something we've been considering.
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Our council gave notice on a plot holder who has 3 plots (for different reasons though). He has got a solicitor involved so the council has had to do the same and is now pending a court case as he refuses to go. The council hasn't taken any rent for 3 years as they want him off and they couldn't do it if he has any contract left. Will be interesting.
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Nightmare. We've got a court case going on over one of our plots; nine months with no movement and no cultivation, and the neighbours on both sides are complaining, with reason, about the state it's in.
We have a three-months probation, with no money changing hands. If they haven't done anything, they don't get a tenancy.
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Thanks for all the replies so far. A few observations:
* I have always thought that phrases in a tenancy agreement such as “thou shalt cultivate the plot” … and “keep it in good order” are extremely vague … and so I am interested to hear growmore provide a definition of what constitutes “cultivated” (2/3rds of the plot on his site). Does anybody else employ a similar system?
* I agree with Trevor_D that the degree to which any rules are implemented must vary depending on the level of demand for plots
* I like Robert_Brenchley’s idea of an initial probationary period
* forming an association is unlikely to happen any time soon though I appreciate what SnoozSuzi is saying
I wrote to the NSALG and their unwritten guideline is three strikes and you are out, ie if you have not rectified the problem after receiving three warning letters then you then it is reasonable to terminate your tenancy.
… Generally, not straightforward is it? .. not that I thought that it was.
Any further thoughts are welcome.
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It's not straightforward because all sorts of things can happen. Someone changes their job, has a new baby, falls ill or has to care for someone, moves house, gets married, etc. etc, and for good reasons, their plot may be badly neglected for a bit. As long as the situation is explained, that should be OK. But if it's not sorted after, say, a year, then it's reasonable to ask whether they're going to be able to lok after it again. Then there's the question of what you do with the guy who's been there thirty years, done his stint on the committee, but is getting frail and can't cope. It doesn't seem right just to chuck him off. But once you see that someone's a tosser who's never going to cultivate, you really do need to get rid of them.
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Sorry if this sounds nasty but "getting frail and can't cope" means to me that that person should give up his or her pot to someone who can look after it properly.
I would have thought most people in that situation would give up anyway.
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I would have thought most people in that situation would give up anyway.
Unfortunately, these people tend to hang on to their plot to the grim death and spend most of the time telling everyone about how good it used to be. They are not going to give up without a struggle and it is better to try to persuade them to reduce their holding rather than push them out. Cutting back to 5 pole or even 2-3 pole that can be easily managed is a good idea but even then their pride is hurt. It's a no-win situation.
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I proposed at the quarterly open meeting on Wednesday that we offer 'half plots' to people who don't want or couldn't manage a full plot. I explained that this would mean that people who had a half plot would have less to manage and therefore may be more likely to keep it cultivated.
I expected a little bit of resistance, however not the absolout backlash and 'shooting-down-in-flames' that I got!
We have a rule that people cannot sublet their plot. That means that I cannot rent a plot and then let someone else cultivate it for me, which in normal circumstances is fair becuase this can lead to people getting a plot 'by the back door'.
My proposal was that when we have an available plot, that it is formally split into two, i.e. 1a and 1b instead of just number 1.
Comments were heard from the old timers like "if you can't manage a whole plot you shouldn't take one on at all!" "This is subletting which isn't allowed!" "What happens if you injur yourself on the other persons half of the plot?? who is responsible!!"
I was genuinely shocked at the narrow mindedness of thier comments and that they were all prepared to shout loudly about it without considering what was actually being proposed: To split plots in order to a) reduce the waiting list; b) to create more manageable plots and; c) to generate more income per plot (I would have suggested the rent be set at £10 a year for a half plot, with a full plot being £16 becuase the rent is only to cover the amount of water used, and a half plot holder would likely still use as much water as many established full plot holders who use water butts).
It was my own fault for believing that they had common sense and that democracy was the way to go!
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Oh Suzi, that is so frustrating >:(! I think your suggestion is very sensible.
I rent a half plot (5 poles) and so do lots of others on our site. In fact, the only full plots are cultivated by couples or retired folk.
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You can't count on everybody to have common sense unfortunately; I've been having an endless struggle with a couple of people like that at church. there are two ways to deal with it; confrontation (which I don't like), or you can let them carry on, and encourage more sensible people, until the old fogeys lose all credibility and get swept aside. Unfortunately, that takes time.
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My immediate neighbour lives next to his plot. Every year he plants some potatoes and some beans and then lets them get on with it with no further input. This year, his were one of the first to get blight buit he didn't seem to notice for two to three weeks. By then, the rest of us had caught it and were busy nipping off blighted leaves, cutting back haulms and digging up spuds. His bean rigs keep getting blown down and infrequently re-erected. The beans just get longer and longer. On the rest of the plot the weeds thrive and seeds blow around. What he seems to do most is use the plot to burn rubbish from his garden - I suspect this is the prime reason for him having the plot and the limited culitvation he does in done just so he can't be evicted. Whats worse is, I would really like his half plot because it is so close to mine and I could do with more space. >:(
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We could only get a half plot on the allotment site where we live so have to travel about 5 mile away to another allotment site where we can have a full one. What gets me mad is when a person takes on a plot and before they have cultivated that take on another. They then do the two halves and decide that the 2 halves they have neglected they don't want and these are then let to someone else. This has happened where we are and the halves that they don't want are full of bramble. Its worse when you could do with an extra bit of ground and see someone else wasting it. We have someone who just lets things grow and doesn't even bother picking the bluddy stuff, but you ask them if you can have a bit of their patch and it "Oh No I'm going to do this or that with it" I'm on a roll now so better stop eh!.
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The other problem with this is the fact that plots are allowed to get into an awful state. This means any new person has a horrendous task on their hands trying to get the plot into order. We have half a plot which isn't technically ours. It belongs to a friend and we cultivate about half of it. We have, in addition, taken on a full plot. This plot had been left to get into a terrible state. It has been a nightmare hacking through the brambles and actually attempting to find the paths. The whole plot is covered with bindweed. We have now got to a state where all of the brambles are hacked down and about 2/3 of the plot is covered up. Hopefully within the next couple of weeks we can get the bramble roots dug out so we can cover up the end of the plot. We can then start to work through the bindweed roots! I also think it is a good idea that during any period that the plot is not taken, it is covered up.
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What have you done with all the brambles you cut down? Do they eventually rot down if left (once cut)?
Lauren :(
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Use the brambles to make rugged harvesting baskets or beehive skeps. Nothing should be wasted.
If left in a pile, they will take a number of years to compost down and will be a nuisance and a constant source of pest troubles. Burn baby, burn.
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What have you done with all the brambles you cut down? Do they eventually rot down if left (once cut)?
You can use the brambles to cover & protect plug plants, newly sown seeds from birds, mice and other predators till they take a good hold. Cheaper than netting.
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Both plots on either side of us have been neglected. The one is also a newbie who got the plot a couple of days after us. But the guy on the other side seemed to be there all the time when we started, but we haven't seen him since April!
The newbies built a raised bed, planted salad, which all went to seed. They mattocked back some of the weeds and planted sweetcorn and a couple of marrow/pumpkin looking plants (they didn't even dig it over!) and that was that, the weeds were back up within a week and have continued to grow.
The guy on the other side planted parsnips, cabbage, beans, potatoes, brocoli etc. The potatoes were one of the first to get blight, and came and went (I thought at the time that it was sad, as he wouldn't know). Now his cabbages have been eaten by caterpillars, the beans are about a foot long, and his brocoli are looking lovely and ready to pick!
I am so tempted to complain about them both, but feel I have only been there 5 months, so don't have the right to complain, I am kind of hoping that the old guys on the other side of them will complain.
Last night when I went to my plot it was covered in white fluff from weeds that have blown from the 2 plots, I was very disappointed! I spend so much time weeding, hoping one day that I might get on top of it all (I know that I will never be weed free, but I am told that it does get easier after about 3 years!)
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the brambles are drying off ready to be burnt in a few weeks (no fires on the plot till the end of the month)
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When a commercial property is let to a new tenant, there is almost always a "rent free period" This can be from 3 months to a year, depending on the state of the office/shop/whatever, and is negotiated between leeor and lessee.
Out allotments sometimes operate like this(Hook/Chessington),or by giving the first year at half price. At £47.50 full annual rental, a reduced rental or zero rent period seems sensible and fair, particularly if there are brambles etc to dig out/drainage to put in, blah blah blah...
Reading various posts about how allotments are run around the UK I think I will stop moaning about ours, as although there are faults and some irritating problems, these seem minor in comparison to what I read happens elsewhere.
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If someone falls ill their nearest allotment holders/friends cover their plot too until they are better. Frail and old lottie holders are also helped in the same way. Usually this doesn't take too much effort because they have held their plots for a long time and they are in good nick.
Part of our allotment was reopened after 15 years and it has been hell getting anyone to take them because of the sheer hard labour to get them started.
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I can well understand that; I ended up with a pile of rubbish six feet high and twenty feet across, and that was only the stuff I couldn't burn. That first year I dug and piled the turf for ten months solid. But you get there in the end. I still haven't finished spreading the piles of soil from the turf.
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Personally I reckon plotholders who neglect plots should be shot and buried under the compost heap!!!!!
The bloke who had mine used it in the end as a dumping ground - he was a builder - and then every other so-and-so followed suit - it was in a right state when I took over!
There's no excuse for neglected plots to be left for years when sites have such long waiting lists (mine now has 80+).
Louise
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Halving a plot sounds a good idea for new people to make a start and they could stay on the list till the other half is available or another whole or half one.
Bit annoying to have to move to a whole one after all the work though.
A lot of people would do well on half the size if they are not there regular and would utilise every bit of space
I personally had great satisfaction in taking over a tip and transforming it.
we didn`t have to wait for first plot but now the list is long but a few older people have given up after letters from the boss.
Good luck
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In most cases I agree with you, though I'd tend to be very understanding when the guy's been there 20 years and just can't cope any more. Our trouble is that it takes so long for the Council to get rid of non-cultivating plotholders (we just got shot of one after several years) that by the time they do go, the plot's inevitably in a real mess.
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my society has a *must be cultivated order*many peeps come down in the new rental year and strim away,then dissapear for another year.
time for a change of commitee me thinks
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If you want to overthrow the regime, be prepared to run the new one!
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Tell me about it... our AGM on Wednesday, after a coup in the summer...
Something is going to hit the fan!
::)
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Sounds ominous SD!
Are you new regime or old?
Or just a spectator?
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Both... one of only two survivors of the old regime, Treasurer to boot!
:-\
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Oh wow, let us know how you get on. ;)
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Watch this space... :-X
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Having been responsible for the recent plot surveys and identification of our less than cultivated plots, shall I attend my first AGM as a committee member in full riot gear? :-\ 8)
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Deb P,
If it is anything like ours .. 1/3rd will accept your findings and set to work .. 1/3rd will complain vociferously but eventually do some work .. and 1/3rd will dig their heels in, spreading rumours such as he/she has it on good authority that you plan to kill the first born of all plot holders as part of their campaign against you. One guy has told our council that raised beds should be banned as part of his personal crusade.
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Deb P,
If it is anything like ours .. 1/3rd will accept your findings and set to work .. 1/3rd will complain vociferously but eventually do some work .. and 1/3rd will dig their heels in, spreading rumours such as he/she has it on good authority that you plan to kill the first born of all plot holders as part of their campaign against you. One guy has told our council that raised beds should be banned as part of his personal crusade.
I don't know what sort of site you come from, but killing the first born of all plotholders is not allowed on self-managed sites. I can't find the relevant section in the Allotments Act but let me assure you it's in there somewhere.
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Both plots on either side of us have been neglected. The one is also a newbie who got the plot a couple of days after us. But the guy on the other side seemed to be there all the time when we started, but we haven't seen him since April!
The newbies built a raised bed, planted salad, which all went to seed. They mattocked back some of the weeds and planted sweetcorn and a couple of marrow/pumpkin looking plants (they didn't even dig it over!) and that was that, the weeds were back up within a week and have continued to grow.
The guy on the other side planted parsnips, cabbage, beans, potatoes, brocoli etc. The potatoes were one of the first to get blight, and came and went (I thought at the time that it was sad, as he wouldn't know). Now his cabbages have been eaten by caterpillars, the beans are about a foot long, and his brocoli are looking lovely and ready to pick!
I am so tempted to complain about them both, but feel I have only been there 5 months, so don't have the right to complain, I am kind of hoping that the old guys on the other side of them will complain.
Last night when I went to my plot it was covered in white fluff from weeds that have blown from the 2 plots, I was very disappointed! I spend so much time weeding, hoping one day that I might get on top of it all (I know that I will never be weed free, but I am told that it does get easier after about 3 years!)
Argh, that must be so disheartening Sue! If they could both be persuaded to leave one of those plots would be mine! ;)
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Hi all
I too got an allotment last Feb. It had not been dug for the last 70 years, or so I was told by the local guy's. It is a smallish plot 70 feet long by 60 feet wide. It had only been used to keep hens and the like on it, as it was supposed to too wet to be used as a productive plot. It was over grown to say the least, (I took photo's when I got it and kept taking one every month or so) the reason being that I could look back to the beginning to maybe give me a bit of a boost when things were tough. Every spade dug had to be sieved to remove bits of plastic bags etc, Anyway I now have two thirds done and will, with a bit of luck finish it next year. However the guy's on both sides of me, do very little on their respective plots, hence I end up with their weed seeds etc blowing on to my plot which is a pain in the rear. I am in the same boat as you two with regard to complaining so my only hope is that just maybe one of the old allotment holders might take pity and complain on my behalf. I do have one benefit though, and that is I get as much farmyard manure as I need delivered free of charge, from the farmer that lives a quarter of a mile up the road. Anyway, best of luck with your plot and keep hoping some one will complain.
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welcome, bogbeast..nice to meet you, sounds like you've got a plan and are doing a great job..look forward to seeing some pics ;D
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Re AGM - spill the beans Saddad - was there a punch up? ;D
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Well as far as the proposal to monitor plots twice a year, letters to those failing to meet the standard of 2/3rds cultivated, tenancy terminated for those failing to respond to that (excluding those with mitigating circumstances such as illness etc.) went, it was accepted without a murmur!!! :o
I had braced myself for an onslaught and had my arguments all prepared, but it never happened! We had a good turn out too, more than twice the members that attended last year. I'll leave Saddad to tell you about the treasurers report though..... ;)
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I have just sent warning letter and intend to organise a bond for new tenants- £50.00 forfeit if not cultivated within a reasonable period. If taken back will use money to clear plot for reuse.If used but then leaves and in a reasonable state Parish will refund money. Probably must accept harsh face of reality that some people like the idea but not the responsibilty of an allotment. Our holders are also annoyed at state of some plots and support Parish with improvement plans for future. Good Luck and we now have a contract.
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Well it's like WW3 every 3 months at our open meetings where non-committee members are invited to attend to air their grievances.
At the last one, a few of the plotolders ganged up against the committee chairman but he wasn't there to defend himself which gave the agitator more guts to verbally attack him. It was cowardly and pathetic. >:( You might ask what their grievance was; he was enforcing some of the softer rules!!! If we actually enforced all of the rules which are currently flouted I think there would be a rebellion!
I really do like the ideas of having a bond to be used if a plot holder doesn't maintain their plot and is terminated, and of monitoring plots to make sure they are worked on. It's not fair that people on waiting lists can see plots that look vacant but can't take them and I will be proposing that both of these are incorporated into the site rules at the next AGM in February.
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I finally got around to not so much complaining as making a point about my neighbour.
He took his plot just before me, around last Easter. He weedkillered the whole thing but then only planted on about an 1/8th of it. This lead to the couch grass being replaced by thick weed all over, which then had its seed blown all over my plot. Somewhat annoying.
So I pointed out, to one of the committee, that I'd not seen the guy on the plot for ages, no work had been done, and that everytime I arrive I find his shed door wide open with all his tools on display. I keep propping stuff against the door to keep it closed but I suggested that the committee might have a word with him because anyone walking past the site can see the tools and they'd soon get nicked (last time I saw him he was complaining about have £100's worth of stuff nicked).
Thus, I wasn't actually complaining, I was doing him a favour by getting them to warn him about the possibility of the tools going walkies. Well, that's my story.... ;D
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hi i got my allotment in October after about a six month wait on the list and was a bit miffed that the only allotment left was a jungle and hadn't been used for 7 to 10 years and there where lots of others in that state!!! so why was i put on a list ??? as Ive been told by other plot holders that it had never been touched.
I cant understand the council letting plots get into such states as it puts off people taking on a plot !! and then when you ask for help off the council all they can offer is a rent free period wow ::) ::) it cost me £100 to get rid of the asbestos and i had to have a skip to remove the brick rubble at £50 so the free rent is naff and there are still plots not being used and we still have a waiting list our council is useless ............. oh dear you've got me started now i had better shut up but i do understand your point hope you get it sorted
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Problem is, weedy, that it's hard for association bods or for the council to kick folks off their allotments when there's no work being done so by the time the person has been chucked off and another person offered the plot a lot of weeds will have taken hold!!
WHen I took mine on it had just been cleared of weeds, (but no landfill items I see >:( ) but they all grew back within a few months, so by the time a new person gets a plot it is overrun again!
Hopefully as secretary for our association I should have some sway in how these things are handled in future so new plot holders don't have too big a job ahead of them and can manage the plots they have been offered.
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I had a third plot for two years simply because I didn't know where potatoes had been planted before when I inherited my two plots so wanted to keep them away for a couple of seasons. I cleared the plot pretty well and used it for two years before giving it up last September. By December it had been taken but wasn't worked. The new tenant was evicted by early Summer and the plot was re-let covered in 3 ft tall weeds and grass. It takes no time at all for nature to take over, so in the space of a year it's gone from being clear to jungle, that's the problem.
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Yes but 3' grass is easier to get out of a recently cultivated plot... 119 I took on as my second plot hadn't been cultivated for at least 20 years from the tree rings of the self set Damson trees that covered half the plot, that wasn't under 6' of brambles and couch grass...
:-X
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Problem is, weedy, that it's hard for association bods or for the council to kick folks off their allotments when there's no work being done so by the time the person has been chucked off and another person offered the plot a lot of weeds will have taken hold!!
When I took mine on it had just been cleared of weeds, (but no landfill items I see >:( ) but they all grew back within a few months, so by the time a new person gets a plot it is overrun again!
We have a good working relationship with the local Judicial / probationary system of the courts. During the spring and summer - individuals who are on community service are tasked to clear overrun allotments on our patch. Clear it - not cultivate it. This is fair as it makes the plot less daunting to newcomers. If it was cultivated for them , they would think working an allotment was a walk in the park. So I believe this balance is right. They also tidy up the paths, cut down brambles. Legal forms are signed by committee representatives for each individual who has completed their daily hours. Yes there is the odd one who is a little work shy, but most enjoy it.
Just an idea for you to propose at you next meeting. Community service at its best. Also saves the council doing it. (Do your homework with the local council first)
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Thanks KT I'll look into this!
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Just posted this thread today from a court hearing held 4 days ago.
http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,37592.msg373975/topicseen.html#new