Allotments 4 All
Produce => Edible Plants => Topic started by: kippers garden on August 22, 2007, 08:45:56
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I posted on here approx in June. I took on a 2nd allotment (very overgrown which they charged me full price for) and i had found a pile of asbestos at the back of my allotment under brambles (which the previous allotment holder knew about). I spoke to the allotment secretary who said her husband had the equipment, thru his work, to safely remove the asbestos.
Its August now and its still not been moved, though i keep cutting the brambles and weeds around it so it can be found again. I keep asking the secretary politely but she always explains that her hubby is busy. However, she now says he will only double bag it but not remove it.
I have since found another pile under some brambles!
I contacted our local council that rents the alloments out and they said that it is up to me to remove it safely without breaking it up. I explained to them that we only have a tiny car and some of the sheets are approx 6' by 3'. They told me i would then have to pay someone to remove it but to make sure that they were registered.
I rang round some companies and i was quoted between £200-£300 which i can not afford and i am not willing to pay. My husband then rang the secretary and told her that we are not prepared to pay this and she advised that her husband would be breaking the abestos up before double bagging it (exactly what the council told us not to do)as he has the equipment. My husband told her he would not have the bags in our car as there may still be asbestos fibers still on the bags after breaking it up and we have children in the car.
The secretary has said that if my husband helps to shift it after its been double bagged to another place then the allotment society will find another place for it but we must get the bags.
I know the secretary is trying to help, but I am at my wits end with this plot and i'm finding myself in tears over it time and time again. Where on earth can i get bags for asbestos and what type do i look for? I'm on the verge of giving this plot up (though it has wonderful plum trees where the asbestos is....pls pls can anyone give me some advice.
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oh, KG..I feel for you, I'm afraid I've no advice to offer but I'm sure there's someone on here who can help..don't give up and good luck :)
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I'd be fuming at this - essentially they've provided you with contaminated land. I'd say you have 2 choices - either become a real pain and contact environmental health, write letters to everyone you can think of, etc etc, or you could do what I would do which is to pick a rainy day (the heavier rain the better), break it up & put it into (double) bags & take it to landfill.
I realise that this second option is less responsible, but you just want it gone & there's no way I'd pay even a tenner for something that's not my fault.
When we were kids we used to break up the asbestos sheets on our local (illegal) tip & do disco dancing in the "smoke". Oh dear...
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MMM tricky, council as good as ever. I'd try yellow pages for local demolition companys if you get somebody understanding and local it wouln'nt be too much bother for them to dispose of. You deffinately don't want to be breaking it up. What would happen if you turned up with it at your local dump it site?
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I did ring local people inthe yellow pages and they were the ones that quoted between £200-£300 to remove. Also, i have rang the tip, they will take a small amount of it, approx 3 or 4 bags (though i think there will be about 20 bin liner sized bags there altogether).
Any advice on the sort of bags i should use?
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Just because the council say you are responsible doesn't mean it's true!
I think the primary responsibility for the control of asbestos lies with the property owner. Property owners should demonstrate they have procedures in place to prevent asbestos's dispersion into the environment.
Doesn't sound like the council is fulfilling its obligations in this respect. Suggest an off the record chat with the local environmental health officer or CAB. Off the record because it might give some clever clogs the excuse to move you off the site for safety purposes.
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As Barnowl has just said it is not your responsibility if the council own the site ask them to remove it, as landlord they have that duty of care. If an allotment association manage the site it will be their responsibility.
The only way in the world you could be responsible would be if it was you who had brought it onto the site which is not the case.
If the council or allotment association do not agree to remove it or attempt to charge you for removing it then make them aware you will contact the environment agency the local media etc... to let them know the allotments are being rented out whilst contaminated with hazardous waste.
As for the secretaries husband intending to break up the asbestos sheets before bagging them that is completely irresponsible & probably contravenes no end of regulations regarding the safe handling of asbestos. If that was going to happen on my plot I would make a point of mentioning it to the council & suggest they remove it before that happens or I would ensure there was a local news crew down there to film it happening guaranteeing loads of bad publicity for the council.
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We've had the same problem on our site Kippers.
ALLEGEDLY the Council are responsible for moving it but they told us we'd have to get at least a skip-full to make it worth their while collecting it. Also, they wouldn't collect it from individual allotments, we would have had to pile it up in one spot ourselves.
Worth making a few more phone calls I reckon. Good luck :)
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Any advice on the sort of bags i should use?
Our Council asbestos department use polythene tube 500g or 1000g.
The beauty of tube is you make the bag long enough to suit the contents you are putting in it, this saves breaking up the pieces. Once in the bag it is tied with a wire twist tie at either end.
I agree with the other comment about contacting your environment agency, plus the council should have ensured that the plot was suitable for its purpose before letting it out to you.
So I would say the removal responsibility is theirs!!
As a last resort (only if you feel up to it) you could make a compromise and suggest if they supply the bagging material for you to fill and you position the filled bags at a convenient place for picking up.
Sorry I can't be of any more assistance than that.
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Have you tried contacting your local councilor ?
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Maybe that is the next step, but i don't want any bad feeling at the allotment as i spend so much time there.
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Although I have been a member of the Forum for a while, I have not posted yet, as I wanted to make sure I knew my stuff before pontificating. But this is something I have had a bit of experience with.
I would say, under no circumstances whatever, touch or move the asbestos. Don't let anyone else remove it either; whether well meaning committee members or otherwise. If anything goes wrong - such as a bag splitting - you will be held responsible. Also, if the Council are aware of it, they can come back in a few months and ask you what happened to it. All you'll be able to say is "I don't know", or "A nasty man came and stoled it!!".
Years ago, I used to transport asbestos in custom made skips, and the regulations we had to comply with were mind boggling. Now - several years later - you can guarantee the list will be a great deal longer and more complicated. I wouldn't go near the bloomin' stuff if I were you.
The plot owners have taken money from you for something that is not only unfit for its purpose, but is a serious health hazard. Please, please, please - get Environmental Health on the case straight away.
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Enviromental health refered me back to the council and said it is the councils responcibility. Can i go back to the EH agency and insist they take this up on my behalf?
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Although I have been a member of the Forum for a while, I have not posted yet, as I wanted to make sure I knew my stuff before pontificating. But this is something I have had a bit of experience with.
I would say, under no circumstances whatever, touch or move the asbestos. Don't let anyone else remove it either; whether well meaning committee members or otherwise. If anything goes wrong - such as a bag splitting - you will be held responsible. Also, if the Council are aware of it, they can come back in a few months and ask you what happened to it. All you'll be able to say is "I don't know", or "A nasty man came and stoled it!!".
Years ago, I used to transport asbestos in custom made skips, and the regulations we had to comply with were mind boggling. Now - several years later - you can guarantee the list will be a great deal longer and more complicated. I wouldn't go near the bloomin' stuff if I were you.
The plot owners have taken money from you for something that is not only unfit for its purpose, but is a serious health hazard. Please, please, please - get Environmental Health on the case straight away.
Asbestos is'nt very good for you - yes - but i think you maybe being a tad over cautious..
If you are worried i'd say just dont break it up, move it in whole pieces.
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Your reply confuses me even more...why am i being told under no circumstances should i break this up or move it by the environment agency then?
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Because there's the "advice" side of things - which is maximum caution etc., and then there's the "what I'd do if it was me" side of things.
Nobody's going to officially tell you to do anything which could potentially expose you to danger. Any internet search advises maximum caution - they have to! But in reality, I reckon a lot of people (including me) would say "sod it, I need this to move & nobody else is going to do it".
Very annoying for you!
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I've assumed that your talking about asbestos cement sheeting (used on sheds and barn roofs) which is'nt as dangerous as other forms of asbestos..just dont break it up, read this,
http://www.eden.gov.uk/main.asp?page=3331
If its not sheet roofing but its ceiling tiles etc.. - then deffinatly be extremely careful.
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Enviromental health refered me back to the council and said it is the councils responcibility. Can i go back to the EH agency and insist they take this up on my behalf?
It is most emphatically the Council's responsibility to remove the asbestos, BUT the Environment Agency has the responsibility to enforce it. If the Environment Agency are aware that the Council have told you to move it yourself, I would say that they would go ballistic.
It the job of Environmental Health to protect you from this kind of bad advice, and I would advise you to go back to them and tell them exactly what the Council have told you.
To keef: Yip, I know asbestos is bad for you, that is why there are so many safety regulations that apply to the handling and removal of it. Just as a throw away line: My father-in-law recently died of asbestosis, and was not a pleasant way to die.
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I couldn't agree more.
The HSE website gives a definition of who's responsiblity it is -
http://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/campaign/duty.htm
- and give them a ring to check. They don't take kindly to people misusing asbestos.
It only takes one fibre to kill you as a friend is currently finding out.....
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The following is advice I found in the Bradford Waste Management Section. I feel sure similar advice would apply throughout the country.
QUOTE:
Environment
You are in :
Environment > Waste Management > Asbestos Advice
Asbestos Advice
Welcome to the Asbestos Advice section of the Waste Management website.
This section will provide you with advice and guidance on the removal and disposal of bonded asbestos cement products.
Asbestos cement is a well bonded, sheet building material, commonly used for roofing and outbuildings such as garages. Care must be taken not to confuse it with asbestos insulation board which is similar in appearance, but much more hazardous since it is softer. The following advice applies to asbestos cement only; other types of asbestos are usually more hazardous and require more stringent precautions, and specialised handling and disposal.
Breathing asbestos dust is dangerous. Any work on asbestos cement may generate asbestos dust and we advise that the following precautions are taken to minimise the risk:
• Avoid creating dust from asbestos cement.
• Never sand down or wire-brush asbestos cement.
• Do not use power tools on asbestos cement.
• Avoid breaking asbestos cement.
• When working with asbestos cement it is advisable to wear disposable overalls and face mask. Check that they are suitable for use with asbestos. You can get advice from safety equipment centres. After use. these should be disposed of as asbestos waste.
• When-removing asbestos cement thoroughly wet it first, particularly around any fixings. Use an ordinary hosepipe or watering can for this, not a high-powered water jet. Add detergent to the water if possible.
• If fixings are difficult to undo, try to cut them off rather than break the asbestos.
• Asbestos cement waste must be wrapped in a double layer of strong polythene e.g., building grade Visqueen (500 gauge, minimum), and sealed with parcel tape or similar.
Failure to wrap or deal asbestos properly will result in a refusal of the site facilities.
• Private householders should take their asbestos waste to the Household Waste Recycling Centre You must telephone the site beforehand. UNQUOTE
I suggest you phone your local waste recycling site first to see what their disposal facilities are and if you can take large pieces.
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Hi Kipper
If the council & EH keep bouncing you from one to the other get in touch with the HSE as they inform the landlords they have a duty of care under the health and safety at work act and also COSHH (CONTROL OF SUBSTANCES HAZARDOUS TO HEALTH) which I'm am sure asbestos comes under. I hope this helps you.
Gordon
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Enough of the elfin safety agencies already! The more you talk to them, the more delight they'll take in making your life difficult. That's what they do. ;D
Whereabouts are you, kippers garden? If it's not far away we'll gladly come over with 4x4 and trailer and help you bag it up, and take it away.
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If you're renting from the Council, it's the Council's responsibility to deal with the asbestos. When some was found on my site, they dealt with it with no problems at all. Have you thought of contacting a local Councillor?
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Melbourne, Keef, etc, am I glad for your posts. I know what I've said is "wrong", but everything's relative. I was rather expecting to be shot down & it's good to be reminded what a friendly & practical corner of the internet this is.
Pumper & Covcarrot - personal experience always makes it harder; my dad is busy dieing slowly from cancer & I really do know how painful it is to watch someone you love die. But that doesn't make me an expert on kidney cancer; although it does make me more emphatic, it doesn't make me more scientific. If either of your close/loved ones ended up with aspestosis from a one-off low exposure, then they're astonishingly unlucky.
I'm sorry, but emotions don't help with objectivity. The original post was looking for practical advice, and I believe the different options have been described.
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Our local recycling centre has a dedicated skip for asbestos. Possibly they all should?
I inherited a shed, originally made of wood, but clad later with both asbestos & corrugated iron. We demolished it, hired a lorry from someone we knew and took it to the dump. (Together with half a Morrison shelter and a fair bit of other stuff besides!)
But, if I understand right, asbestos isn't dangerous until it's broken up. So if it's just sitting there it's not a danger, even though it may be unsightly. And there are two sorts of asbestos, aren't there? One is fairly OK, but the other's a bit more lethal. Can't remember the details - knew them once; Senior Moment setting in - but I'm sure someone can confirm.
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Advice here, www.hse.gov.uk
Type asbestos in the search box.
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If the asbestos is whole and not fraying then I would leave well alone. I would then do on eof two three things, contact your local counciloor (epecially if its an opposition one) and let them make a fuss. Two-sheet it over and work the rest of the plot or three, give up the plot and make it perfectly clear why and at the same time contact the Environment Agency and advise them of contaminated land.
On no account would I try to move it or allow any non-expert to do so. You do not want any fibres lurking in your soil, on leaves which you will disturb or blowing in the wind.
No allotment is worth risking your health for.
Be well
Steve
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Most asbestos can be safely removed, but it's not for Kipper to deal with a problem which isn't his.
Government advice seems pretty clear on this: The responsibility lies with the land-owner, not the tenant.
Renting property shouldn't mean renting someone elses problem. If the land belongs to the council then they have a legal duty to deal with the problem.
Make sure a complaint to them is in writing with a copy to the local press and MP. (Let each of them know the others have been contacted). Attend your local Parish Council to voice your concern, that way what you say is mentioned in the minutes of the meeting and dated.
Invite your local newspaper photographer...they'll take the whole problem off your hands. They love nothing better than 'attacking' the big boys.
Go for it, Kip.
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Most asbestos can be safely removed, but it's not for Kipper to deal with a problem which isn't his.
Government advice seems pretty clear on this: The responsibility lies with the land-owner, not the tenant.
Renting property shouldn't mean renting someone elses problem. If the land belongs to the council then they have a legal duty to deal with the problem.
Make sure a complaint to them is in writing with a copy to the local press and MP. (Let each of them know the others have been contacted). Attend your local Parish Council to voice your concern, that way what you say is mentioned in the minutes of the meeting and dated.
Invite your local newspaper photographer...they'll take the whole problem off your hands. They love nothing better than 'attacking' the big boys.
Go for it, Kip.
If the asbestos is whole and not fraying then I would leave well alone. I would then do on eof two three things, contact your local counciloor (epecially if its an opposition one) and let them make a fuss. Two-sheet it over and work the rest of the plot or three, give up the plot and make it perfectly clear why and at the same time contact the Environment Agency and advise them of contaminated land.
On no account would I try to move it or allow any non-expert to do so. You do not want any fibres lurking in your soil, on leaves which you will disturb or blowing in the wind.
No allotment is worth risking your health for.
Be well
Steve
For f-in sake - roofing asbestos its not that bad, I'd just put it all in a bin liner and take it to the dump - job done. If you'd been a roofer all your life working with asbestos id worry - but a couple of sheets on the lottie that need moving..
Thoushands of sheds are covered in it, and so are hundreds of barns and warehouses - the risk is minimal.. driving to the allotment to pick it up is statistically probably much more risky.
And people wonder why were becoming a nanny state..
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Quote from Keef
For f-in sake - roofing asbestos its not that bad, I'd just put it all in a bin liner and take it to the dump - job done. If you'd been a roofer all your life working with asbestos id worry - but a couple of sheets on the lottie that need moving..
Thoushands of sheds are covered in it, and so are hundreds of barns and warehouses - the risk is minimal.. driving to the allotment to pick it up is statistically probably much more risky.
And people wonder why were becoming a nanny state..
I agree, roofing asbestos is not that bad but if you read the original post you will see that the car is not big enough to take the sheets whole. If you read the HSE and other sites they refer to firmly bonded sheets not requiring licences but needing careful removal and not being broken, breaking sheets can release fibres. If you search the medical literature for asbestosis you find that if you are very unlucky the exposure required is very small.
Therefore I am not being a nanny, just very cautious, and I don't believe in taking an avoidable unnecessary risk.
All the best
Steve
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This happened to me last week. The builders doing the extension on a friends house found aspestos sheets on the ceiling and their boss took them off site for safety reasons and called in some aspestos removers to assess the type of aspestos and the risks.
The aspestos removers said it was a mix of brown and white, (without even testing it) sealed off the area and said they would remove it in 3 weeks time and it would cost £4,000 and take 4 days. They also said it was illegal to remove it himself.
I looked up our local council regulations and the government regulations on the internet and found out that we could legally remove it and as long as it was double wrapped, we could take it to the recycling centre providing we obtained a certificate of disposal. Which they issued to us.
So equipped with masks and disposable overalls and a hose pipe with a fine mist setting on the hose gun we took it down. Wrapped it in builders polythene sheeting and gaffer tape packed it on the back of my truck and took it to the centre. Time taken two men X 3hours.
At the centre they weighed us and told us which skip to put it in which we did along with anything that was likely to be contaminated. It was an open skip half full of aspestos (not even wrapped). They weighed us on the way out and charged us £32 as it was over 60 kilos.
The builders boss got a firm to do a reading at the building site which showed the area was a long way below the permitted contamination levels and the builders came back on site.
Cost= £20 for masks and overalls, he gave me £250 for my trouble, £32 at the tip. I do not know what the firm cost to test the area but I bet it isn't nowhere near £4,000.
These removal people try and scare you into giving them big money.
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Like Pumper and Cov Carrot I know how difficult it is when you know someone who has had asbestosis FIL died of it ( as did virtually all the York BREL teams who had to drill holes through cladding in confined spaces in the 50's and 60's).
It's the dust that is dangerous, hence avoid breaking and keep damp, wear masks and so on... our council have been collecting asbestos sheet from our site for ten years as we have brought more and more back from the wilds..
Get it shifted... and get your peace of mind back..
:-X
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Just wanted to say thank you for all your replies. We are goingto buy the bags and the secretaries' husband is going to double bag it up (though he is going to break it up to do it). My husband is going to help him move the bags to a different plot and then i'm hoping the secretary is going to arrange for different people to take a bag or two to the tip (not us though in our car).
At least then it will be off my plot and not my problem anymore.....if it happens (i've been waiting since June already).....i'll let you all know.
Once again thank you for all your replies