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Produce => Edible Plants => Topic started by: Moggle on May 03, 2004, 16:27:07
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I have browny-black spots on the lower leaves of my tomatoes. They are outside on the sheltered balcony. Will attach photos.
Is it terminal? Will they pull through? Is there anything I can do with them at this point, or should i chuck them and start again :'( :'( :'(
(http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0RQD2AtsSXXepbUUlZyLiz0ryzk9tpR*wM8zRt1qn0ZYRkBSSEC75E4w!uYEoJGWoE6RbRxnNtp8FIHUDX8Q7ePaRIznVHV*jboa70eM2cyM/IMG_0005.JPG?dc=4675470660027721401)
(http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0RQCNAtwSmXepbUUlZyLiz!vHoZwISB8ClHcQnuTO2VlDJmkV4NVVq5uWva2cRJjRWOmQokqj1ocReRb5s9pZjCVhzLUAVDR1UPIAZCLlBFU/IMG_0006.JPG?dc=4675470660062515408)
Haven't used any fleece or cover, cause I thought they would be sheltered enough.
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Haven't a clue - but, because the rest looks so healthy, I would nip off the offending leaves & see what the future brings. = Tim
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Just looked in dr hessayon's expert book - purplish brown mould patches appear on underside of the foliage & the upper surface bears yellowish patches - is tomato leaf mould and starts on the lower leaves first - just remove the affected leaves (and according to the book, spray with carbendazim). Says ventilate the greenhouse for prevention.... Brown patches on upper surface could be the dreaded blight.
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Moggle - as I said, don't know - but, with respect, would have thought it a bit premature to spray??
= Tim
PS Sorry about the writing - my pen is terminal!! If you can't read it, I'll e-mail it to you?
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Many Thanks Tim and Multiveg.
The spots are more purple brown than brown, but not a different colour on the top. :-\
Thanks for the extract Tim, I can make out most of it :)
And it is on the lower leaves only at present. I would think that the balcony is pretty well ventillated, being open on one side, so I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to prevent any further damage.
So will remove affected leaves, and pray for the best. All leaves on some lower stems seem to be affected. Should I remove those stems altogether?
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I would! = Tim
If you missed something on the extract, I'll PM it.
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It may be a completely different sort of black dot of course, but I had this on four plants, in separate areas of the house - dots turned to purple bits, other parts of the leaf turned yellow, and mosaic virus looking, edges of the leaves have curled and dried - so I binned them. One of the trays of basil next to the toms also caught the black spot - almost like a pitting on the leaf surface, I've quarantined these to see what happens - hasn't got worse yet.
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I would just take off any dead leaves and see how you get on,it`s probably just that they are not happy to be out so early.
Stephan.
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hoo-ray!! = Tim
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If they were mine, I would cut off all but the top few leaves and bury the stem almost to the top leaves in an upright growbag or as deep as you can, almost to the bottom of the bag (make some holes in the bags about 5 cm above the bottom). Your plants are a bit leggy anyway and the stem in the soil will grow nice new roots.
I sowed my tomatoes a bit early, the ones for the lottie I planted in the soil of the greenhouse last weekend. The ones for the balcony at home I wanted to wait with putting outside in growbags till the weather warmed a bit. Lo and behold, the last ones are starting to bloom on the window sill so I better get them into the growbags and out on the balcony.
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Not exactly in context - but how do folk get toms to bloom before planting out? This is what the books say.
And WHY, this year, are all of my plants leggy, & some a pale 10" tall?? 6-8", & strong green, yes - but not these wispy things.
Oh, well - they are going out now, anyway. = Tim
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No idea Tim, I always wondered about that too until I saw the blooms yesterday morning. Probably have to sow them real early and wait long before planting out, eventually they will bloom I guess but what's the use?
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Ok thanks Ina, I'll plant as deeply as I can. Might not be able to manage the half-growbag, but I'll do my best.
You couldn't post a photo of your flowering toms could you? I don't think I've ever seen tomatoes growing before now, and definitely not in flower, and I feel a bit stupid for not even knowing where the flowers form. :-\
Operation 'Leaf Removal' will start tonight, and I'll post again to update on my progress.
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Here's a picture (thanks to google), they grow where the leaves join the stem when the plant is mature, with intervals of three leaves (I think).
(http://img55.photobucket.com/albums/v168/fergina/van%20alles/tomflow.jpg)
Ps: Thinking about it, now I'm not sure if they do grow where the leaves join the stem or above it. Somebody will surely know but I just can't remember.
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They grow in between the leaves, Ina. What grows where the leaves join the stem are the side shoots. Just as a point of information for the new gardeners: the shoot that grows in the leaf joint immediately below the trusses is fed by the same vascular 'threads' as feed the trusses. Experiment has shown that if these shoots are not removed (although the others are) production is decreased by 50%, due to nutrient competition.
Moogle, your plants are very drawn (etiolated) and pale. I would suspect that you have grown them 'soft', being too warm initially, and that your ventilating them outside in too cold air has caused cell death (it is only showing up now though). Also, can you get some nitrogen into them to darken them up?
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So the flowers grow from the main stem between the leaves?
John, I expect that your analysis is fairly right. The spare room that I grew them in was very warm, and I started putting them outside a couple of weeks ago during our warm weather, which has since turned a bit chilly. :(
To avoid this in future, do I try to keep them cooler as seedlings? Should they have had more time to harden off?
As to nitrogen, I have miracle grow, which is something like 15:30:10, would that do, or do I really need to go out and buy something else? I'd rather not get anything else unless its essential.
Thanks Ina for the pic. I transplanted 2 de-leafed plants last night in to half grow bags, then got too cold outside, so I'll try to do the others tonight.
...later
I've just had a thought, would it be pointless at this stage to bring a couple back inside? There is one plant that doesn't seem to be affected at all by the spots. I have a couple of larger pots that they could go in to. The only reason I put them outside so early is because they were getting so big, and I didn't have loads of bigger pots. (I really am clueless aren't I?)
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Yes, keep them cooler if you can and they should have had longer to harden off. The problem is that with every year being different there is no fixed rules or guidelines as to when or for how long.
Your Miracle-gro is very high in phosphorous (P). P is needed in high quantities when plants are young (it is mostly used in new tissue formation- as the plant matures and enlarges it is able to access sufficent without heavy additions from you). At the very least you need to switch to a fertiliser high in potassium when you plant outside. Well fertilised ground may be able to supply enough nitrogen, when supplemented by a product such as Tomorite, that you should be able to avoid buying more fertilisers.
Now that they have hardened off I would leave them where they are. Bringing some back inside may well precipitate similar problems taking them back out- especially given the vagaries of the U.K. climate!
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Left - how it should be done.
Right - too rushed to re-soak the soil, & the hole wouldn't stay deep.
Patience!! = Tim
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Oh Tim, that looks fan-tas-tic!!!!
Can't wait for the season to get on and get pictures with the tomatoes on.
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Err Tim, just wondering, what on earth do you do with ALL the tomatoes you get??!! DP
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Ask Emma - she has 57!!
And, anyway, 8 of them are peppers, 8 aubergines, 8 cus,and some chillies. Is that better? = Tim
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If you cant find a use for a tomato your not trying hard enough hahaha chutney, pasta sauce, soup (freeze gallons of it), think :)
Although I am wondering. I had 10 plants last year, and 4 of them I only got green fruit going (late ones) - this year I have avout 30 (4 varieties) - think I've overshot?
How much fruit does 1 plant give?
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"8lb indoors (cold)- 1/2 that outside" = Tim
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The size of my freezer and cupboard storage seriously limits what I can keep kingkano! :'( And Tim, how wonderful all those peppers, aubs etc! ratatouille all round! ;D
I have space for 4 toms in the greenhouse, 3 aubergines, (might try and squeeze another in) and a couple of peppers, and a cue :(, but on the plus side I am growing Ferline toms as recommended by Ina, so may actually get a crop from outside! DP
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Yes - just used the last Ratatouille last w/e with 15 to lunch!!
Now for the aphid attack?? = Tim
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Tim Oh yes, had forgotten about that! I am going to try and use nettle spray to see if it works! Last year I didn't get a single pepper, all looked beautiful from the front, but had been hollowed out from behind by big FAT green caterpillars, I suppose if we had eaten them they would have tasted of red peppers! Will try again tho.
Do you grow your cues, aubs and peppers the same way as your toms in the tall bags?
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Thanks again everyone for the tips. Now for my update:
2 toms went in to 1/2 growbags, they look about half way between Tim's two rows, not as low as the ones on the left, but I did my best.
2 were planted deeply in normal grow bags, with an 8" ring of plastic to raise the soil level a lot.
I already had 2 planted out like this.
One has gone in to a big 14" square pot, and one in to a 6" pot, in case one of the other ones really is terminal and goes to the big allotment in the sky.
Still a bit more of the spots, and some are now yellow. I'll try to post some more pics soon.
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Doris - this year, yes. Previously 'on the flat'. = Tim
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Tim, will be interested to hear if you get a better crop this year! Let us know please ;D
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The leggiest of them all hahaha.
My other tomatoes were planted in the greenhouse before they got leggy but these two had to stay on the window sill because it was too cold to put them out on the balcony, so they got very leggy.
After plucking them, I gave them a chimney to grow roots in.
(http://img55.photobucket.com/albums/v168/fergina/volkstuin/DSC00002_resize.jpg)
(http://img55.photobucket.com/albums/v168/fergina/volkstuin/DSC00013_resize.jpg)
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WOT - no clogs?? = Tim
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Ina, they make mine look good :D
How long after that stage would you expect them to flower?
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Moggle - worried about your spots!!
Can't get this to you privately, so here goes = Tim
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I will check these against what I've got this afternoon, and see Tim, but neither of these really matches up with what I've got I don't think.
It may be time to post another photo and get a decent close up of a leaf.
Thanks for the info.
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- upside & downside = Tim
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OK I finally got some photos with leaves mostly in focus.
(http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0QQAFAwUSlC2pbUUlZyLiz8KaEjJtuUXS4bcOQg9vu3jEPypIfRFl4cjO4407SkC3VtvfPJTrha4mH1j*J8jjYrBGFvNIyxYmO07JznmbDNA/IMG_0025.JPG?dc=4675472443291393239)
On the plus side however, they seem to be enjoying being in bigger pots, the tops are still healthy, and most of them look like they are going to flower (as far as I can tell that is).
Does this shed any more light on the problem?
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OK - & on the underneath??
Looks like scorch - but that's not possible. If you can't get an answer, are you a member of HDRA? I could send them the photos? = Tim
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Tim, the underside of the leaves doesn't look noticeably different from the tops.
I'm not a member of the HDRA.
Thanks
Moggle
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Can but try - see my mail. = Tim
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If it looks like scorch, feels like scorch (papery, crumbles when touched), then it is scorch. Seen this too many times for it to be anything else. Given Moggles ambitious hardening off regimen, Tim, it can be easily be scorch.
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Thanks Tim, will try and reply.
John I assume the scorch would be from cold? As you say, I wasn't exactly gentle with the hardening off, so that could well be it. I'll have another look at the leaves in a bit and examine for paperyness.
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To be botanically accurate, Moggle, the close atomsphere in your flat will have got the plant into a state of not transpiring very much moisture. Once you put them outside the increased air movement will have increased the moisture loss. The cold will have slowed the rate of flow of moisture from the roots to the stomata (the breathing apertures in the leaf) so moisture will have been pulled from the surrounding leaf cells causing them to dry out and die.
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Not before time, John!! Where have you been??
When I said 'couldn't be' I meant, of course, from the glorious English sun - at the time it first happened. Fascinating about your type of scorch.
btw - why do toms transpire so frantically? Is it a good thing? This, in itself, could cause tip burn in hot sunshine?? = Tim
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Every plant transpires, Tim. I don't know if tomatoes are frenetic about it, it is just their adaptation, neither good nor bad.
I'm trying to recall if I have seen tip-burn on tomatoes in hot sun. I've seen tip burn caused by cells drowning (mostly happens on tomatoes in greenhouses but I have seen lettuce affected outside) and sun scald on fruit outside. Too many years here, where I guess it isn't significant enough for me to recall, and too many years away from the U.K.?
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It's just that I sometimes mutter something to myself when I get soaked walking down the rows!! Cus as well. = Tim
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The damaged bits of the leaves are indeed papery and crumbly.
Assuming that it's scorch, dare I hope that the worst has passed. Also, I've removed loads of leaves but have left a few on the plant. Should these be removed or left?
Once again, thanks a load!
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The worst has passed (barring a frost of course!). Leave any remaining leaves on the plant until they are obviously dying (which happens naturally with tomatoes- only the leaves 1.3m from the growing point are actively contributing to the plant while the plant will cause senescence of the rest).
Tim- if you are getting soaked walking down the rows then that is the cause of your tip burn, not the sun. If the atomsphere in your greenhouse becomes saturated overnight then transpirational losses from the plant cannot evaporate into the air. This moisture accumulates on the leaf, especially along the leaf margins. If this moisture then sits on the leaf for prolonged periods (which it will- hours during the spring and autumn) the marginal cells drown and die. They will presently turn brown- tip burn.
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I always thought it was the lens effect. Live & learn! = Tim