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General => News => Topic started by: Merry Tiller on December 11, 2006, 20:45:40

Title: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: Merry Tiller on December 11, 2006, 20:45:40

/www.thisislondon.co.uk (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23377625-details/Flowerdew%2C%20the%20organic%20gardening%20guru%2C%20buys%20an%20artificial%20tree%20for%20Christmas/article.do)

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: Mrs Ava on December 11, 2006, 22:18:58

Oooo, does that make me an evil non green person because we have a plassy tree?  I have to add however, ours is a recycled tree that my sis was taking to the dump - so we took it off her hands.  Phew...does that mean I am 50% okay now???? :D

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on December 11, 2006, 22:51:40

We've got a plastic tree we've had for about ten years. We used to have real ones when i was a kid, had needles permanently embedded in the carpet, and I can imagine the fuss this lot would make at that!

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: Merry Tiller on December 11, 2006, 22:52:07

Personally I would prefer a plastic one, I hate the mess a real one makes but every year I'm outvoted. What I'm getting at is Mr. Organic personified rattling on about being cruel to trees by killing them and bringing them indoors, what about all the carrots he's eaten over the years? Is it not equally cruel to bite a lettuce leaf in half? Mashing potatoes must be up there with kicking puppies  :'(

 >:( THINK ABOUT PLANTS AND VEGETABLES, THEY HAVE RIGHTS TOO  >:(

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: beejay on December 12, 2006, 08:30:34

Surely christmas trees are just a crop like any other such as cut flowers (albeit a bit bigger). Providing they are re-cycled & the "crop" replaced I don't see the problem.

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: Curryandchips on December 12, 2006, 08:49:26

Ah well, this is giving me a good laugh ...  :D

Never again will I go around kicking potatoes ...

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: caroline7758 on December 12, 2006, 08:51:10

Must say I'm surprised at Bob on this one- I'd have thought he would buy one with roots and plant it in the garden after Christmas- I know he likes a challenge!

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: Palustris on December 12, 2006, 09:23:01

Of course if we were all members of that religious sect which does not celebrate Christmas at all, then the whole of this plastic versus real would be irrelevant anyway, would it not? ::)

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: saddad on December 12, 2006, 12:14:57

I celebrate Christmas, at Church as well! Wouldn't give it houseroom as it has no place in the Bible story but OH outvotes me every time. It is sat out on the patio now...
 ::)

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on December 12, 2006, 13:04:16

Given that Matthew and Luke wrote completely contradictory accounts of Jesus' birth, placing it at least ten years apart, it looks as though the early Christian community either didn't know the story themselves, or weren't interested in it. But later generations obviously felt different. If they're going to celebrate his birth, they have to pick a day somewhere, and the old Midwinter Festival is probably as good as any other date. It's the way it's all hijacked by commercial interests that gets me.

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: norfolklass on December 12, 2006, 13:06:02

we buy a real tree every year from our local nursery (Mousehold if you're ever in Norwich, it's great!) and for every cut tree you buy you get a free babby tree with roots to plant up. we've declined the rooted one for the past few years but the first rooted one we got is still going strong in its pot in the garden. eventually we'll be able to bring him in and decorate him instead of buying another cut tree!

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: triffid on December 12, 2006, 13:58:19

I'm with the traditionalists on this one, for lots of reasons: some logical, others pure sentiment  :)... 

I love breathing the foresty smell of a real tree!

I remember the pleasure I always had as a child walking past big bay windows with ceiling-scraper trees. So I promised myself that if I ever had a big window of my own, I'd do the same so other children could enjoy it. (We don't have lights on the outside of the house, just the tree in the window.)

And, speaking as the CEO of vacuuming activities, I find the Nordmann non-drops are as good as gold (so long as we keep the huge tub of water in which our nine-footer stands well topped up.)

The tree gets recycled here. I snip off all the branches and bung em in a bin-bag down on the lottie.
The trunks end up being big supports for ends of runner-bean frames etc.
Then, when the needles finally drop off the branches, they get used as a mulch for my blueberries, and the branches themselves become supports for next year's peas.

And since it's grown in the UK and bought from the greengrocer on my high street (and delivered on foot by the greengrocer's lad!), I'm putting a bit of cash back into two small UK businesses.

Everyone should make their own decisions about stuff like this: it's not as cut-and-dried(!) as Mr Flowerdew appears to be saying.

 

 

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: Trixiebelle on December 12, 2006, 14:11:39

<<If they're going to celebrate his birth, they have to pick a day somewhere, and the old Midwinter Festival is probably as good as any other date. It's the way it's all hijacked by commercial interests that gets me>>

I have to disagree on that one! The 'old midwinter festival' (Winter Solstice/Yule) has been NICKED from the Pagan calendar .. as has Easter (Oestara)

Don't want to start a religious debate here though and I absolutely agree with the commercial aspect of your argument.

And Xmas trees? Well as long as they're from sustainable forests/plantations and get suitably recycled then I don't see the problem. It's only the same as having a vase of cut flowers isn't it?

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: Merry Tiller on December 12, 2006, 14:47:03

Quote

Of course if we were all members of that religious sect which does not celebrate Christmas at all, then the whole of this plastic versus real would be irrelevant anyway, would it not?

What's Christmas got to do with religion?  ???

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on December 12, 2006, 17:33:28

These days, nothing. I wish they'd rename it and drop the commercial pop carols, so the church could get on with its own festival in peace.

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: cornykev on December 12, 2006, 18:12:09

Oh is Christmas coming up then, never realised.   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D.
I'm artificial less mess. ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: muddy boots on December 12, 2006, 19:33:36

Well, okay, can see many points of view.  Prince Albert introduced Queen Victoria to the joys of having a Christmas tree and delighted her.

Some of us have adopted it and good for them.  Those who choose to have a manmade reproduction gain the benefit of dust but no needles, which is fine by me and loads of other peeps.

However, I still like the real thing although, I have to admit that this year, it is not indoors but sitting in all its glory on top of the shed and awaiting its lights, which will be introduced this weekend!  :D

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: moonbells on December 13, 2006, 09:09:14

I'd have thought that the manufacturing process (plastics, metals etc) would be far worse for the environment than anything else.

I have a tree which lives in a huge pot all year, outside, and comes in for a couple of weeks each Christmas. However, with that sort of thing you have to watch out for spruce aphid, which can defoliate the tree in days (not to mention getting sticky goo all over the carpet or furniture). I am lucky in that we have a conservatory which is kept at a lower temperature than the house, and which is separated by a double-glazed patio door. It means the tree never gets roasted and so survives the season.

moonbells

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: Froglegs on December 13, 2006, 11:05:08

 ;D

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: Froglegs on December 13, 2006, 11:24:46

>:(If it was up to me xmas would be like the Olympics every 4 bloody years,don't you just get fed up with this yearly gift voucher exchanging ceremony........but it's for the kids i hear you say, well when i was a sprog it was a family thing nowdays £50 for a tree real or not...ps2 games that they compleat by boxing day.................I've got me coat

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: Squashfan on December 13, 2006, 12:07:58

We have a small tree in a pot that we have dragged inside and decorated for the past couple of years. Much easier than a) assembling a tree or b) buying a new cut one every year. But it is kinda small. The other issue is keeping the cats from sitting on the dirt and then tracking that everywhere. 
As for keeping with the original Biblical story, if we all did that, we'd decorate the Christmas palm tree!  ;D And I have no access to myrrh or frankincense.  :P

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: Merry Tiller on December 13, 2006, 16:46:21

£50 for a tree Froglegs ???

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: saddad on December 13, 2006, 17:39:09

The Polytheistic Romans pasted their gods over the pagan celebrations that they found in conquered lands... and Saturnalia was a good midwinter festival. Once Christian they found that they couldn't get rid of the older festivals so the Christian church pasted Christmas and Easter over exisiting festivals of Mid winter and spring / fertility. Christmas Trees and Easter eggs are hangovers from this. I am with you Rob that the whole thing is now an excuse for commercialism!

The date of Christ's birth is largely irrelevant to the early church as the whole thing is based on Easter, the death and Resurrection. If you look at the internal evidence like the Annunciation Jesus was probably born in Late July/ early August.
 :-\

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: Froglegs on December 14, 2006, 02:00:34

I kid you not £50 ish.........ok £49.99......including balls......and lights....still £49.99 for a bloody xmas tree!!! ;D

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: Froglegs on December 14, 2006, 02:03:05

ya could grow one for less than that ::)

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: Garden Manager on December 14, 2006, 09:51:10

On the subject of 'growing your own', does anyone keep theirs outside even at christmas? (ie and outdoor christmas tree). If so how do you decorate it to make it look christmassy outdoors? Lights? What other decorations could you put on an outdoor tree?

I am just thinking it would be nice to have a tree on the patio out back to make the garden look a bit seasonal (seeing as we dont get snow for christmas these days, and the garden just looks a bit dull in midwinter).

Thanks

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: froglets on December 14, 2006, 10:42:08

Hi GC,

Have mine outside the kitchen window - it's pot grown & on a pot trolley as it gets moved about when I put out washings.  I don't do outdoor lights, but it's got tinsel on it held on by wash line pegs.  I may invest in some cheap plastic baubels for it but I suspect the chav sparrows or the fat mouse will attempt something nefarious.

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: Garden Manager on December 14, 2006, 16:49:34

Quote from: froglets on December 14, 2006, 10:42:08

.....but I suspect the chav sparrows or the fat mouse will attempt something nefarious.

Chav Sparrows? New one on me. I wouldnt exactly call my spadgies 'Chavs', More like 'Scarlet Pimpernels' at the moment. Elusive and ungratefull little blighters. Now the magpies, they definetly ARE chavs! Thanks for reply. :-)


By the way in case anyone hasnt seen my own thread on this subject, i thought i ;'agreed with Mr Flowerdew (for once). But now i am not so sure.....(?)

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: redimp on December 15, 2006, 23:36:09

Quote from: Robert_Brenchley on December 12, 2006, 13:04:16

...If they're going to celebrate his birth, they have to pick a day somewhere, and the old Midwinter Festival is probably as good as any other date. It's the way it's all hijacked by commercial interests that gets me.

Ah, but Robert, the fact that they hijacked the Winter Solstice was a purely commercial decision too - they did it to sell Christianity to the pagans.


PS - just seen that saddad has made a similar point :-[

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on December 16, 2006, 09:27:58

That could well be true in the case of Christmas; as far as I know, nobody ever wrote down their reasons for supporting it, or if they did, it wasn't preserved.

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: moonbells on December 21, 2006, 08:31:33

Yes, but though the name Easter is pagan, the actual date is still calculated pretty much to fall at the same time as Passover, which is when we know the events of Christ's crucifixion actually happened. Because we don't know exactly which year the crucifixion happened, we can't calculate back to the precise date, and we still follow the "first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox" rule.

Occasionally Passover and Easter differ, usually because of the definition of a full moon. Same way that the start dates of Ramadan can vary between Shia and Sunni, because with one (Shia I think) the new moon crescent actually has to be seen at a certain place before it starts. Must talk to my boss to remind myself.

The original oestre was celebrated on the vernal equinox.

moonbells

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on December 21, 2006, 09:37:21

Easter was originally a passover story, with Jesus apparently getting crucified on Passover Eve. Then as Judaism and the church evolved in different directions, the date of Easter was changed slightly. Where they found pagan festivals at about the right time of year they took them over and changed the dates.

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: Merry Tiller on December 21, 2006, 23:21:00

Amazing isn't it? You never know where a thread is going to end up :o

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: Trixiebelle on December 22, 2006, 16:17:51

Pagan festivals usually (always) surround what the moon is doing!

And 'what the moon is doing' is very significant when it comes to gardening/planting.

I think I've mentioned this before, but Dario (an 80yr old Italian plot-holder on our site) has been gardening for about 50yrs. He's an Italian Catholic but he plants by the moon. And his onions are always bigger than mine!

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: saddad on December 23, 2006, 18:55:02

Apparently, according to the radio Christmas was first celebrated by the church in AD440... at the midwinter festival.
 ::)

Title: Re: Flowerdew's really lost it this time
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on December 23, 2006, 22:27:40

The idea of celebrating December 25 as Jesus' birthday was put forward by Julius Africanus in 221; at the time, it was thought that March 25 was the date. The earliest mention of the celebration of Christmas comes from the Calendar of Filocalus in 354. By then, the Eastern Church was celebrating the birth on Jan 6th. Over time, the festival was introduced in one city after another, and eventually became accepted. It's probably no coincidence that Dec 25th was also the date of the Natalis Solis Invicti; the birthday of the Unconquerable Sun, who demonstrates his invincibility by regaining his strength every year. Constantine I, who fully legalised Christianity, was a sun worshipper who proclaimed Sol Invictus as his 'Companion' on his coinage for years after his supposed conversion to Christianity, and in the 5th Century, Pope Leo the Great complained vociferously about people doing devotions to the Sun on the steps of St. Peter's, before going into mass. It seems that at the time, the two beliefs were often combined.