Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => The Basics => Topic started by: Little Weed on September 26, 2006, 15:14:48
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We took over a small but long neglected (4 years uncultivated) plot last weekend and started by sorting the hedge out (a small wood!) We now need to let the hawthorn and ash dry out so we can have a bonfire. I'm just concerned that if we wait till Bonfire Night (which would make sense for the children) it might be too late in the year to rotivate afterwards - would it? (The earliest we'd be allowed to have a bonfire is nearly 3 weeks time anyway.) And after we've rotivated, do we dig it? Cover it? Just leave it till Spring and dig then? Manure it? Or what ??? All help appreciated.
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Hi, I would try not to rotivate it if I were you. Just dig it a bit at a time, if you can get there every day twenty minutes will cover the ground faster than you think, and try to get out as many weeds as possible. As you go along test it's Ph value here and there to see if it needs lime. If it does add it this Autumn. Don't cover it let the winter rain and frost get at it.
In the spring dig it again, once again removing as many weeds as possible and add manure to those areas where you are going to grow crops that need or like it. Hope that helps a bit :), but you will get lots of other views I'm sure. ;)
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Lots of posts about this,
I'd say clear as much weed off the top as you can, compost / burn that. Then dig it and dig in manure as you go.. pull out and burn or bin nasty stuff like bind weed and couch grass as you dig it. Quite a lot of work but you have far less weeds next year...
I start digging late November / December.
Rotorvating will just chop up the weeds and make it a pain to get rid of them, plus it does'nt actually turn the soil over - just sort of breaks it up and mixes it about.
Covering it is a good way to clear the weed growth to start with if your lazy, but it will mean all the weed seeds will go back into your soil, id still dig it once it cleared rather the rotorvating for the reason above.
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Hi little weed :)
If you click the wiki button fifth from the right you'll arrive at the A4a 'cyclopaedia - there's some good advice written by Forum members on 'clearing a new plot' to add to larkspur's and keef's.
To answer the title question - never, IMO! :o
I'm sure you'll get loads of advice, but the important thing is to cultivate in the way that suits YOU best so you get food and fun too :D
Welcome to the forum and happy gardening ;D ;D
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Hi Little Weed,
I tend to agree with Larkspur. From personal experience I'd say that if it's been uncultivated for 4 years, it's bound to be covered in couch grass and/or bindweed>:( >:( Rotivating it will chop the roots of these into a million bits, all of which will merrily re-grow!! Hand digging, although hard work, is the best way to get the roots out.
Cheers,
Rob ;)
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Nuts! Everyone else beat me to the posting button!
Cheers,
Rob ;)
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I think we all agree ;D
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Hello Little Weed
Have to agree with the others on this .. if you rotovate one weed can turn into 1000's :o So take it slow, little by little does it. ;D
You could alway try green manures for the over winter bit, that would smother most annuals and then just dig it all in - in the spirng ;)
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Rotovate if you have couch grass and like couch grass beer (think there was a posting about this weed beer in the drinks forum) :o
It will be a slow process- there are no easy answers.
Good luck.
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I sympathise, there's really nothing for it but to dig. You've got to get all those weed roots out, not cut them up and plant them back in again. The wife and I cleared our plot (5 rods) in about 30 hours over 2 months planting as we went.
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I sympathise, there's really nothing for it but to dig.
well, there IS a no-dig alternative - heavy mulch 8)
it's a matter of preference :)
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I like the digging method myself... must have been a Leveller in an earlier life! But SSprouts Mulch Mania can be quite successful!
8)
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If you rotorvate in the proper manor, using the correct technique it will save hours of back breaking digging but it is not a quick fix. Too many people try it once and are disapointed with the results thus perpetuating the myth that rotorvating makes a weed problem worse
PS. I've never seen an organic farmer digging fields with a spade ???
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If you rotorvate in the proper manor, using the correct technique it will save hours of back breaking digging but it is not a quick fix. Too many people try it once and are disapointed with the results thus perpetuating the myth that rotorvating makes a weed problem worse
PS. I've never seen an organic farmer digging fields with a spade ???
No they use a plough... ::)
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surely you should only need to rotivate if your soil in compacted!???
I have not dug any of mine. I have just hand pulled weeds out - yes even the waist high ones and the pullling up seems to loosen and airate the soil!
I'm a big fan of pulling up and raking over and then hoeing as and when!
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No they use a plough
Exactly ::)
I have just hand pulled weeds out Please feel free to come and pull couch out of my Bedford clay ;D
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Curious to know how many people who disapprove of using a rotorvator have actually used one or are their views based on what they were told by others?
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I wouldn't want to be without my little Tiller, although it is useless on hard ground, so digging is the only answer. :(
All I will do is dig enough to loosen the weeds pull and compost, cover in Farm Yard Manure then go over with the tiller mixing in the muck then cover with lots of cardboard held down with string all ready for spring. 8)
My Daughter came with me to the plotty last week to harvest and her first words were, "Why is your plot looking so full of crops and others look so empty?" I said "I blame it on my Muck and Tiller" ;D 8)
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My friend Jim down the plot has a rotovator. He has back problems so can't dig much. He made his plot into raised beds. He piles strawy horse manure onto the beds then rotovates in the spring to mix it in. He has amazing crops (if he can remember what he has put where!). I think he glycophosphated the weeds when he started 3-4 years ago. He does pull weeds up these days.
Rotovating isn't a good idea where there are lots of perennial weeds - it will make the problem perennially worse - horsetail/dandelion/dock can regrow from miniscule pieces of root.
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No they use a plough
Exactly ::)
Yes, a plough has quite a different effect than a rotorvator - turning the soil into the trench left by the ploughshare in front, bit like digging really.
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Curious to know how many people who disapprove of using a rotorvator have actually used one or are their views based on what they were told by others?
I think so :'(
Yes, a plough has quite a different effect than a rotorvator - turning the soil into the trench left by the ploughshare in front, bit like digging really.
Aha, Yes, almost exactly like digging, except weed roots are not removed
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Curious to know how many people who disapprove of using a rotorvator have actually used one or are their views based on what they were told by others?
My plot was unused for about 18months before I moved in. It was rotorvated for me - I didn't ask. It's caused me a few problems weed-wise which have been quite dishartening in my current carefully time-managed life causing me to seriously consider giving up my plot. I wouldn't recommend it to people in a simmilar position and will not have it done again.
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Exactly the wrong way to use a rotorvator once again, I'm not surprised you're disheartened
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Perhap someone who's taken over a new weed covered plot could rotorvate half and dig half - i bet a score that the dug half will have far less weeds popping up the next year...
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Exactly the wrong way to use a rotorvator once again, I'm not surprised you're disheartened
Well what is the right way to use a rotorvator ?
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In my own case I did rotorvated half and dig half (approximately) due to the rotorvator breaking down half way through the job. The following spring there were more weeds in the rotorvated area than the other, BUT, the soil was so loose from the rotorvating that the weeds + ROOTS came out just by hand pulling. The dug area had to be re-dug to remove the weeds and roots a much harder job. The plot is now dug/rotorvate completely so the question of propergating weeds is a thing of the past, I garden in raised beds so my veg growing area is not trod on, but I still rotorvate (new rotorvator) my beds, great tilth, the carrots, parsnips in fact any root veg love it. Great for mixing in manure, fertiliser etc. So to conclude a rotorvator may cause more weeds the FIRST year, but these are easily removed, after that a great labour saving device.
One point, what is the correct way to spell rotorvator? the choice I made is accepted by the internet but comes up as a spelling error on A4A spell check.
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Exactly the wrong way to use a rotorvator once again, I'm not surprised you're disheartened
Well what is the right way to use a rotorvator ?
See MT's expert advice at http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/joomla/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,91/topic,10528.0
some of us have long memories! :o ;D
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I normally dig late autum / early winter. In early spring i start going over it with my big cultivator (fork with the tines bent 90deg) this stops the soil becoming compacted, breaks up any remaining clods and helps gets it ready for planting, it also deters any weeds. I keep doing this on the unplanted areas every few weeks until its all planted..
I could use a rotorvator to do this, but i find it quicker and more accurate using a cultivator - probably is more hard work in the long run, but it helps keeps my beer gut in check.
To be honest i think were vearing away from the original question, which was basically how to clear a NEW plot - if you've had your allotment for years, and have got rid of most perenial weeds, then using a rotovator is OK (still does'nt actually turn over the soil though ;D). But for a new weed covered plot - i still say dig it first...
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To be honest i think were vearing away from the original question, which was basically how to clear a NEW plot
I'm fairly sure the original question was "When to rotorvate a new plot" ;)
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Good point ::) - but seeing as no one has exactly, specifically answered "when" to rotorvate a new plot - and most people have said simply dont rotorvate a new plot, dig it instead and given advice on when and how to do this. Perhaps you could actually try and answer a question and say exactly when YOU think you should rotorvate a new plot - as you presumably think thats the best way of clearing a new plot... ;D
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I could use a rotorvator to do this, but i find it quicker and more accurate using a cultivator
What is the difference between a "Rotovator" a "Cultivator" and a "Tiller" please? ???
Please don't say... a rotovator rotovates a cultivator cultivates and a tiller tills ::) ;D
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Well i would say - but undoubtably some will beg to differ.
a rotorvator (or rotary culivator ;D)
http://yabba.waffleson.com/media/31/img2t.jpg
a cultivator
http://horizonsltd.com/Merchant4/graphics/00000001/0-66-780a.jpg
a tiller
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d57/keef30/tiller.jpg
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How about the slow way using Mexican Marigold (Tagetes minuta)?
Per Sarah Raven's Cutting Garden
"Not a looker, but an extraordinary plant - its roots kill perennial weeds. Its cleared a whole bed of bindweed at Perch Hill. Give it a try."
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Thanks so much for the advice - I was hoping you wouldn't tell me I'd have give up thoughts of machinery and dig, but somehow I knew deep down that that's what the answer would be! You've all been so useful that I'm going to ask you another question now - see new post!
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Curious to know how many people who disapprove of using a rotorvator have actually used one or are their views based on what they were told by others?
I used one for ten years or so. I stopped using it when I became convinced of just how much its use damaged the soil structure.
Two years use of a rotavator does more damage to the soil than four years with a plough & harrow and five years with a spade, fork and hoe, resulting in the loss through oxidation of humus, and the reduction in the number of collloids in the soil, and a resultant loss of crumb formation.
The figures I have quoted were the results of six years of tests carried out at the Rothamstead Agricultural Research Station many years ago and were freely published at the time.
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That's interesting Kepouros, where did you find that information? if there is any evidence in that statement I wonder how the makers of these tools would respond?
Would love to hear from the makers of spades forks and hoes.
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Kepouros, what machine/which attachments were used and how often was the plot rotorvated in this 2 year experiment?
Perhaps you could actually try and answer a question and say exactly when YOU think you should rotorvate a new plot
Ooh you're lucky I'm in a good mood................ since you ask so nicely :-* May, June, June & July at 3 week intervals.
This is not in fact the best way to clear a plot,though it will do the job. The best way IMFFHO is to apply glyphosate at double strength mixed with a touch of washing up liquid twice and to do this around a month before tackling it with the rotorvator...........it works..........but I'm not recommending the method to anyone, understand?.........UNDERSTAND?
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Roy, The Report was published in the late 1950s or very early 1960s. It was discussed in one of the horticultural magazines of the day, and I sent my postal order to Rothamstead and obtained a summary. The findings were complete and unequivocal, and also explained to me why my own heavy clay was heavier and stickier than before I started using the machine. Unfortunately I lent it my copy to a nurseryman of my acquaintance several years later and never saw it again.
Merrytiller, I believe it was a Howard Gem with 6hp JAP engine - the same type that I and many market gardeners used at the time. If you read my posting more carefully you will see that I referred to 6 years of tests, not 2. The tests were carried out on more than one plot for each method, and the rotavator tests were repeated. The rotavation was done once deeply with a second shallow pass to produce a tilth similar to that obtained by the other 2 methods. As far as I am aware no attachments were used. Prior to commencement of the tests the soil in each plot was tested as to humus content and crumb structure and was tested again each year throughout the experiment.
It all, of course, happened before you were born.
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Perhaps you could actually try and answer a question and say exactly when YOU think you should rotorvate a new plot
Ooh you're lucky I'm in a good mood................ since you ask so nicely :-* May, June, June & July at 3 week intervals.
This is not in fact the best way to clear a plot,though it will do the job. The best way IMFFHO is to apply glyphosate at double strength mixed with a touch of washing up liquid twice and to do this around a month before tackling it with the rotorvator...........it works..........but I'm not recommending the method to anyone, understand?.........UNDERSTAND?
(http://www.websmileys.com/sm/fingers/fing05.gif) well done for answering my post - although May, June and July ?? and glyphosate at double strength and washing up liquid - i take it your not organic then ?
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How about the slow way using Mexican Marigold (Tagetes minuta)?
Per Sarah Raven's Cutting Garden
"Not a looker, but an extraordinary plant - its roots kill perennial weeds. Its cleared a whole bed of bindweed at Perch Hill. Give it a try."
Have you or anyone you know used this? I've looked at Sarah Raven's site and there's not much in the way of: how easy is it to grow, manage and get rid of? What are it's growing habits and can you plant/sow it between veg? Will it attract the good wildlife or the bad crop-munching variety etc?
:)
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I've found a bit more on it :
"Actually this information is in our printed catalogue on page 35 in the year 2000 version. Marigolds all produce toxic root secretions which help them to overcome competition from plants trying to grow in the same area. The most effective species is Tagetes minuta, with the common name of Mexican marigold. It grows very tall and in this way also adds shading out of its competitors to its arsenal of self defense. It has tiny flowers -hence the latin name "minuta" but these are only produced in very long season regions.
Most marigolds also have an unpleasant odour that also seems to be unpleasant to insect noses. They are therefore used to repel insects like mosquitoes.
The underground secretions are also toxic to nematodes and the plant is therefore used to reduce the populations of this pest in garden plots.
Weeds that have a hard time growing near Mexican marigold because of the root secretions and the shading, are such hard to eradicate weeds as ground elder, bindweed, couch grass and ground ivy. This effect spreads about 90 centimeters (3 feet) from the base of the plant."
http://www.richters.com/newdisplay.cgi?page=./QandA/Aromatic/20000302-1.html&cart_id=81.1496 (http://www.richters.com/newdisplay.cgi?page=./QandA/Aromatic/20000302-1.html&cart_id=81.1496)
If it only flowers late or not at all, it's hard to see how it would propagate itself well enough to be a weed.
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Keef, this will be my last posting on the matter
1. I in fact said "May, June, June and July at 3 week intervals", too difficult to understand?
2. The glyphosate trick was passed on to me by the council parks guys, I never said I used the method and I wouldn't recommend it, got that? well done
3. Whether or not I grow organically is irrelevant as far as I can see, firstly it has no bearing on the original question and secondly it's none of your business, although I doubt 2 peoples definition of organic allotmenteering would be the same anyhow, do you ever drive a car to the allotment/garden centre? Are all your seed packets made from recycled paper? blah, blah, blah
You are now joining my kill-file, you have a very rude & bullying way of expressing yourself, I would not tolerate it face to face and will not do so on this message board
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One last thing since it's all getting a bit fractious. :o
Start as soon as you can and, if you are going to dig / rotovate over the autumn and winter without planting, invest in some weed suppressing membrane / black polythene sheeting and bricks to hold it down with.
Then you can mulch and cover the bits you've dug and leave them until you have decided what to plant and when.
Good luck. We went through it when we got the allotment in March this year. Lot of effort to begin with but very exciting when you get your first harvest.
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opps' looks like i've upset someone.. soz. ;)
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"IMFFHO" says it all, IMHO. :-\
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Far from all surely
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Someone tell him i've sent im a PM, he's plonked me so i expect he wont get it.
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ABout a year ago (after I'd had my plot a year) I was so dispirited at the pace at which you can dig whilst removing couch and bindweed that I thought 'sod it' and hired a rotavator and did the half I'd not dug.
And was pretty liberal with the Roundup too.
Not one of my better moves! It looked OK for a few weeks but then the d**n Mares tail moved in to where the weaker nuisances had been.
Good luck whatever you choose - and hey, let's lighten up about this!
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Roy, The Report was published in the late 1950s or very early 1960s. It was discussed in one of the horticultural magazines of the day, and I sent my postal order to Rothamstead and obtained a summary. The findings were complete and unequivocal, and also explained to me why my own heavy clay was heavier and stickier than before I started using the machine. Unfortunately I lent it my copy to a nurseryman of my acquaintance several years later and never saw it again.
Well I think the report is poppycock, I can remember whey back in the 60's when I helped my Dad on his plot, he wasn't "Organic" in fact he used all the chemicals that are banned now and used a "Rotovator" as did nearly all the other lottie holders that new no better in those days and produced some good crops albeit contaminated with chemicals. ::)
I am "Rotovating/Tilling" the same land almost 50 years on and it is still producing healthy crops even tho without the chemicals. :P
So on that basis I don't think it makes an ounce of difference if you "Rotovate" or not. ::)
I also think you were a bit naughty going back to edit your post without pointing it out, >:( therefore making my reply look a bit naive. :(
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I don't know why this is turning into such a heated discussion. I wouldn't want one myself, but neighbours of mine use rotavators and get good results. Each to his own.
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It all, of course, happened before you were born.
???
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Can I add my take on this as a newbie? I think that for someone who has just taken over a new plot, faced with a jungle of weeds that would dishearten the most avid "digger", perhaps the best approach is to spray with glyphosate, probably twice, and when the weeds can be seen to have died down, then rotavate. This will bring the plot to a good starting point for cultivation. It will also have loosened the soil so that it can be dug if so chosen much more easily. I like to think of myself as an organic gardener, but when faced with problems like this, it sometimes pays to be pragmatic, and reach for the chemical.
Maybe it depends how keen the person is, I know if I was faced with this, digging would soon cause me to lose heart, and maybe be the end of my allotmenteering days. If you don't have a cast iron constitution, don't be afraid to take the easy way out!!
As for timing, I would suggest using glyphosate now, and again in about 3 weeks time, which should kill most of the weeds by about 6 weeks time, mid novemeberish. Any time after that should be fine to rotavate, bearing in mind that if you have heavy clay soil, the tines on your rotavator may become clogged, and next to useless, so try to get it done before the ground becomes too boggy.
Hope that made some sense :-\