Allotments 4 All
Produce => Edible Plants => Topic started by: caroline7758 on January 10, 2006, 19:24:24
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Following on from the "dig or no dig?" thread, would you recommend rotavating, and if so in what situations and at what time of year? If this is a repeat, maybe someone could give me a link to a previous thread.
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I'll probably get shot down in flames for this, however, if you've bags of spare time you could dig it a little at a time (weather permitting). Will likely take you all winter but is cheaper than gym fees. If ground is too wet you could damage the soil structure (if you're as tubby as me, that is).
Rotovators chop up the roots of perennial weeds and spread them all over the place. How about trying to remove the worst of the perennial weeds by hand (if you can spot 'em at this time of year), then send the rotovator in.
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There are a few threads, if you do a search. Most people will say no, don't do it, but mine was rotavated twice before I took over in late August and I am still grateful for it - while the rotavation chops up perennial roots, it also made the ground very easy to work. As I was taking things very slowly, first clearing some brambles in the part that wasn't rotavated, then digging over one bed at a time on the bit that had been, I found that it was worthwhile to make the work a bit less backbreaking. However, that was my particular experience on a particular plot at that time of year; if you have boundless energy and time I'd say do it the hard way, as I still have to dig out all the perennial roots now they've grown back!
On the upside, I sowed green manure (ryegrass) on the area that had been rotavated which I knew I wouldn't get to last year, and that seems to have kept down the rest of the weeds incredibly successfully, though I do get laughed at for having a small football pitch (it's all you can see from the main path).
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Rotovators chop up the roots of perennial weeds and spread them all over the place. How about trying to remove the worst of the perennial weeds by hand (if you can spot 'em at this time of year), then send the rotovator in.
I think this is one of the main reasons given NOT to rotovate. Also it damages the soil structure I think.
Someone told me last year they'd had a bit of their allotment rotovated that DID have some couch/bindweed, and afterwards they raked and raked and successfully got out most of the bits of root. Think this was only one bed though.
I think my head says 'don't rotovate' but with a new allotment to dig over, if anyone offered me the use of one right now I'd probably say yes.
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I find rotovators really difficult to use successfully and I hate the noise and the stench of petrol fumes. I think I'd rather just dig, sweat and listen to the birds. Sometimes start out with the pickaxe if the ground is particularly hard. I also have a tool like a sort of back-to-front spade called an azada which is incredibly good for breaking up soil. You swing above your head and then chop into the earth so none of the backache associated with digging. It also seems to be incredibly fast compared to digging.
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My neighbour has a big french tool (that's what he calls it!) which is shaped like an azada but is bigger and is pronged like a giant rake. It's astonishing watching how quickly he can clear part of his plot, going through embedded couch at a rate of 6 sq m in around half an hour without breaking sweat (the width of the plot). Then you use it to rake out all the roots into neat little piles. Really want to pinch it but he's taken it home to sharpen and doesn't come up to the site that often. If I had one of those or knew where in the UK to buy one I'd say never rotavate. However, if, like me, you're hopeless and are beginning your allotment career clutching nothing but a pair of your mother's elderly secateurs, get the nice man with the big machine. :)
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Well, I'm a fan of rotavators. We acquired an old but solid machine when we took over our plot last year. She's called Doris (the rotavator, not the plot).
BUT I wouldn't use her on ground that was full of weeds. We dug that over and removed the perennial weeds by hand. The machine is great for digging over a fairly clean bed after the crops have been removed, and superb at preparing beds for planting, so I think that rotavators have their place especially during the busy preparation and planting season.
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Hi bupster,
very desirable Azadas are here,
http://www.get-digging.co.uk/tools.htm
near cromer in norfolk.
Col
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For my part, on the advice of the Allotment Site, I had my plots rotavated by the council. I wish I hadn't now as it's damaged the soil structure. Parts of the plots have gone incredibly sticky and muddy in parts whilst the soil in other areas is an incredibly fine tilth. As the location of the site is incredibly exposed and windy, I have a horrible feeling that parts of my plots are going to dry out and blow away! :'(
Overall though, it's fantastic rich loamy soil, and having read the article in KG magazine by Bob Flowerdew, I'm going to let it go back to how it was and let me digging out the potatoes every 3 or 4 years on the rotation plan take care of it. If you can't manage to do it by hand and you are going to rotavate, then I would recommend only rotavating where you are going to grow veg and leave the rest of the plot alone and sow Green Manures there to cut down as compost or to use as a mulch.
Actually I can see my Allotment neighbours forming a Lynch Mob so I'd better get out of here... ;D
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Thanks, Col. The tool I'm thinking of is like a long draw fork but with a much bigger head. It scared the bejesus out of me until I saw it in action. :o
Caroline, you don't say what state your plot's in. Is it hideously overgrown?
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I got mine from get digging. I've got a medium azada and a right-angled fork. They're really good IMHO.
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I love my rotovator ;D-but the warnings are true-once made the mistake of not clearing perennial weeds-still paying for it in some parts
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It's quite easy to remove perennial weeds using a rotavator, you just need a little patience.
I use 2 different rotavators on my plots, the soil on both consists of stony clay, with the addition of organic matter the soil structure is one of the best on the whole site.
In autumn I plough the whole lot up using a ridging attachment, this allows the frost to do it's stuff, in the spring it breaks down beautifully when I go over it with the slasher tines.
Once you have learned the different techniques it really is the best way of cultivating your plot 8)
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I think the decision to rotavate is v dependant on your type of soil .I have a very light soil and it would get more dusty if I rotavated. This seems to be why I have problems with swedes sproutsetc etc.Obvoiously mine does not need breaking up.
Others on the plot do rotavate and do have very limited success with the above crops.
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It's all about how You use your rotavator...Keep your speed down and You wont finish up with dust...As with all machines once You get used to a rotavator and let the machine do the work It is a valuable aid on Your lotty ...Jim
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Thanks, Col. The tool I'm thinking of is like a long draw fork but with a much bigger head. It scared the bejesus out of me until I saw it in action. :o
Caroline, you don't say what state your plot's in. Is it hideously overgrown?
Like the Chiilington 6159C/4P as found at the very bottom of this (http://www.chillington.co.uk/northafrica.html) page?
Has anyone got any idea of where you can buy these?
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Like the Chiilington 6159C/4P as found at the very bottom of this (http://www.chillington.co.uk/northafrica.html) page?
Tools like this used to be known as Canterbury hoes. Googling might bring up some other sources. Couldn't you e-mail Chillingtons to find out who sells their tools?
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Like the Chiilington 6159C/4P as found at the very bottom of this (http://www.chillington.co.uk/northafrica.html) page?
Tools like this used to be known as Canterbury hoes. Googling might bring up some other sources. Couldn't you e-mail Chillingtons to find out who sells their tools?
Cheers.
I have emailed them, I have heard they sell them directly, but only in boxes of 12 heads--I shall have to wait for their reply to see if this is true.
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Amphib,
The big French tool, which I borrowed today (it is fantastic), has six huge prongs, and the prongs themselves are bent over at a right angle, like a giant lethal very sharp rake that's mated with a pitchfork. It clears couch grass like nothing else - the whole turves come up and you just use it to rake out the roots. I estimate I dug over about three times more than I'd normally do in the same time, and my back doesn't hurt nearly as much as usual. Neighbour said he bought it in France, has never seen one like it here.
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Amphib,
The big French tool, which I borrowed today (it is fantastic), has six huge prongs, and the prongs themselves are bent over at a right angle, like a giant lethal very sharp rake that's mated with a pitchfork. It clears couch grass like nothing else - the whole turves come up and you just use it to rake out the roots. I estimate I dug over about three times more than I'd normally do in the same time, and my back doesn't hurt nearly as much as usual. Neighbour said he bought it in France, has never seen one like it here.
???
I want one.
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I don't think you can beat a rotavator for doing large areas of heavy soil, the weed problems get overcome - eventually they just give up.
I now don't have to use it on many areas of my plot, but it has been invaluable.
I also have a long draw fork as shown on the link, didn't know what it was called as I got given it, but it's very useful indeed for breaking up small areas and heavy raking.
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I think this is one of the main reasons given NOT to rotovate. Also it damages the soil structure I think.
Yes it does,Moggle. Additionally, rotavating incorporates air into the soil (a rotovated bed is always higher than an untouched one) which will speed the decompsition of organic matter. This will release nutrients into the soil more quickly, potentially making them unavailable to crops and increasing groundwater pollution, and can reduce both good drainage, during wet periods, and the moisture retention capacity of the soil during dry periods.
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Not sure I follow the logic. Why is it detrimental to the soil to release nutrients more quickly and why will it increase groundwater pollution?
Depending on the soil type and the frequency of rotovating it may well impede drainage (rotovating to a set depth encourages a hardpan) and encourage erosion on lighter soils.
That said, with a large neglected area to be cultivated, rotovators are great.
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You may well get a lot of nutrients being released, then leached out of the soil, at a time when the crops don't need them. Then they're unavailable when they do. Additionally, the extra oxygen churned into the soil burns up humus, which doesn't help the soil structure.
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My father-in-law (who I share my lotties with) PROUDLY announced last that he'd bought a rotivator. We had to (just about) cut a red ribbon last week to 'launch' it.
Me ... I've had my eye on the spark-plug. How do you sabotage a spark-plug??? Any ideas welcome!
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Do you really want to be that nasty? Shame on you! That sort of sabotage should be reserved for enemies.
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I won't DESTROY the spark-plug ... just hide it somewhere! Is that better?
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My father-in-law (who I share my lotties with) PROUDLY announced last that he'd bought a rotivator. We had to (just about) cut a red ribbon last week to 'launch' it.
Me ... I've had my eye on the spark-plug. How do you sabotage a spark-plug??? Any ideas welcome!
From my misspent youth, I seem to remember that if you take a soft pencil, and draw a nice line on the ceramic insulator of the spark plug from top to bottom (ie from the metal bit at the top to the metal bit that screws into the hole), then the machine won't start.
Doesn't damage the plug, but puzzles mightily the poor chap who's trying to start the engine. ;D
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Like the Chiilington 6159C/4P as found at the very bottom of this (http://www.chillington.co.uk/northafrica.html) page?
Has anyone got any idea of where you can buy these?
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Sorry to be thick but where at the bottom of the p[age, I can't see anything ?
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Like the Chiilington 6159C/4P as found at the very bottom of this (http://www.chillington.co.uk/northafrica.html) page?
If you click on this which is blue it is a link to the Chillington website. Scroll down to the bottom of that page and you will find what is being talked about. :)
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Like the Chiilington 6159C/4P as found at the very bottom of this (http://www.chillington.co.uk/northafrica.html) page?
Has anyone got any idea of where you can buy these?
I'm not sure whether this helps much, but Chillington used to be the export arm of Elwell Tools, which was one of the great toolmakers of Victorian times. My late father-in-law worked for Elwell until they were bought out by Spear & Jackson (I think around the mid-70s). The Chillington name is still used on wheelbarrows sold by a separate company in the UK, but I suspect that Chillington Tools only sell outside the UK.
Edit: No, I'm wrong. See http://www.permaculture.co.uk/erc/erc25a.html
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Hey!! Thanks for doing the surfing. ;D ;D
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Like the Chiilington 6159C/4P as found at the very bottom of this (http://www.chillington.co.uk/northafrica.html) page?
Has anyone got any idea of where you can buy these?
I'm not sure whether this helps much, but Chillington used to be the export arm of Elwell Tools, which was one of the great toolmakers of Victorian times. My late father-in-law worked for Elwell until they were bought out by Spear & Jackson (I think around the mid-70s). The Chillington name is still used on wheelbarrows sold by a separate company in the UK, but I suspect that Chillington Tools only sell outside the UK.
Edit: No, I'm wrong. See http://www.permaculture.co.uk/erc/erc25a.html
If only they did the four pronged fork.
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As I said earlier, rotavating & cultivating the soil on my plots has done nothing but improve it's structure, don't forget, there is more than one kind of rotavator which can be fitted with more than one kind of tine and can be used by more than one kind of operator, if you know what you're doing it works superbly, just ask the huge worm population living on my plots
This will release nutrients into the soil more quickly, potentially making them unavailable to crops and increasing groundwater pollution, and can reduce both good drainage, during wet periods, and the moisture retention capacity of the soil during dry periods.
Sorry but doesn't this just contradict itself, it releases pollutants into the groundwater and yet it reduces drainage???????