Allotments 4 All
Produce => Edible Plants => Topic started by: adrianhumph on December 27, 2005, 09:04:37
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Hi all, :D
Having read Bob Flowerdews views on dig/no dig, in this months kitchen garden, I was wondering what stance/ideas you all had on the subject. He maintains that for veg growing no digging is the best way for a variety of reasons, what do you think ???
Adrian.
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Woohoo, this topic will run forever !!! I am an advocate of digging, because I believe my ground needs working, but I also respect the no-dig approach, as I know there are many advantages to that as well. Talk about sitting on the fence !!! I have this strange feeling that I may experiment with no dig on a small area, to try it out ... The only thing that worries me, is where will I get my exercise if it turns out the better method ...
Derekthefox
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I'm doing raised beds filled with a mixture of well-rotted horse poo & ordinary compost mixed together which I will then just plant.
I've got Mel Bartholomew's book on Square Foot Gardening & he also advocates the do-dig method.
Any method which reduces the amount of work needed to produce veg gets my vote.
CC
ps. my other argument is that mother nature doesn't dig & she always produces a bountiful harvest (tic)
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We had some big downpours of rain on my allotment site the year before last and my neighbour had lots of his fine well rotivated soil washed away. The soil on my own no-dig plot survived by having a good coating of compost or green manure on all the raised beds, and enough worm holes in the soil to soak up the rain without generating a run off problem.
I seem to get a lot more really interesting bugs and beasties in the no-dig plot than I did when used to turn it all over with a shovel in my first couple of years. Now I see lots more crickets, beetles, grass hoppers, ladybirds etc because I go a bit easier on their habitat, and I also have slow worms living under bits of corrugated iron and lizards under black plastic, so maybe its become a wildlife reserve as well as an allotment.
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No dig. Same reasons as I don't beat the wife.
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I have heard that raised beds give a better crop for a number of things (no idea what they are though!). However, I like the physical effort of digging, the smell of newly turned earth etc and the less hassle of not having to make raised beds {GG}. Also all that work means I can eat more and not worry about my waistline!
Iain
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I dislike digging and only do it when I need to, to lift roots or to remove weeds. I think mulching is far better, if I can just get sufficiently ahead of myself to get it done. I rend to get bogged down with weeding and digging and end up doing everything a couple of months too late, but it seems to be going better at the moment so hopefully I'll get it all done.
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No I don't deep dig but I can understand why the men of the lottie land enjoy it. But my life is to short for that I would have to lie down for a long while.
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I understand your comments Icy. I think there is some primitive satisfaction in the activity of digging, and raw physical effort. Like you, my waistline benefits. But I would not go so far as to advocate this to anyone else. I do agree with the argument that digging takes a lot of manhours, that could be spent better elsewhere if time is at a premium.
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No dig. Same reasons as I don't beat the wife.
She's bigger than you ;D
I don't dig -bad back, although there is a patch that wants digging to get the weeds out -but right at the moment I daren't, maybe in the next month or two
Jeremy
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Have to admit that there is something very satisfactory about digging!! But perhaps I wouldn't do it if it wasn't necessary!! ;)
My plot was very overgrown and rundown when I took it over, so digging out the bindweed is a MUST! Having done that for a couple of years and weakened the aggressors, I dare say that an annual dig will not be necessary.
Flowerdew in all probability has fabulous soil which does not need the extra attention, something that I shall still be striving to achieve ten years from now!! ;D
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I have had couchgrass growing through my beetroot Redclanger !
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but you would always dig a new and compacted plot, right?
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I think a lot depends on the type of soil you have. I am on heavy clay, and with very little natural topsoil, and subject to waterlogging. So, I dug out sitches, dug and rotovated a few times, but now for certain beds, where I've built up the height by adding things over the past 6 years, I don't deep dig at all, there is no point in bringing up clods of sticky clay.
For the beds that aren't so good, I am still in the process of llightly digging in organic matter to improve them and raise the height more.
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??? ??? ???
Erm..dug out sitches???????? What's a sitch Jenny?
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Oops, sorry, getting late here now, fingers slipping, meant to say ditch...
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I've never tried no-dig, but as I have a new and couch infested plot no-dig is not an option for me.
I have a bad back, so the digging is slow work, especially with so much couch to remove.
But despite my bad back, and the labourious process of rooting out the couch, I enjoy digging. I love taking a rest--in the cold sunlight--and watching my mate, the robin, picking over the earth.
Besides digging keeps you warm, making the outdoor hours far more enjoyable. I find half an hour in to digging I am in a t-shirt no matter what the weather (I keep a scarf on though).
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And difficult soils break down easier having been roughly dug and then left for the frost don't they?
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In his book Bob says that it is worth digging a new plot once or twice to get the perennial weeds out -but then stop. Generally the line seems to be use a bed system that way you don't walk on, and compact, your soil so you won't need to dig it. As to the frost thing -you wouldn't have those clods of earth if you hadn't dug them up -so you don't need the frost.
All good theory -just tell it to my bindweed.
Jeremy
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the fact that most farmers still dig ( plough) suggests it can´t be t wrong. after all they want to make a living on their plots and if there were better ways of cultivating the soil they might have found out by now.
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Yes, I find that argument almost impossible to argue with ...
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Sorry - but modern farming methods are completely unsustainable i.e. they destroy the structure and life within the soil upon which all our lives depend. I don't think emulating this insanity is anything to shout about...
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But we are talking about tilling the soil here, which has been done for hundreds, possibly thousands of years ...
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I agree with you both in many ways. Modern farming methods do in many ways destroy the soil structure but...depending on the maincrop old lessons are being learned and used from organic methods.
eg - massive reduction in pesticides and encouragement of beneficial insects (eg hoverfly and ladybird) into the crop and pests out of the crop by intelligent planting or leaving of wild flowers around the fields or in some cases strips through the fields. Slug control by letting grass grow long so it stays nice and moist for the slugs. Creation of composting sites with all compost returned to the fields - for exactly the reason you state TM. I accept however that my experience is limited to salad production so can't comment on fruit, or cereals.
Just a shame they have had to go round the loop again and the governmewnt continues to subsidise over production.
Iain
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@terracemax
if modern farming methods "destroyed the structure and life within the soil" - it surely would result in smaller crops....
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I think they artificially prop the yield up with artificial ferlisers....
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Being a farmers daughter, he doesn't farm organically, I do....well, plot organically, we have some rather colourful conversations, but they do hurl loads of fertilizer on.
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Pre-chemical farming was usually mixed, and dependent on large quantities of manure. I don't think ploughing itself does that much damage in our climate, though by churning oxygen into the soil it does speed up the rate at which humus is broken down, which can be disastrous in some circumstances. If you stop replacing lost humus you're just laying up problems for the future; as long ago as the 1920's there are cases of light soils being ruined by humus loss due to the over-use of inorganic fertilisers during the Great War.
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There's no counterpart to digging in nature.
Mulching,however, mimics (albeit at an accelerated rate) deposition of organic matter in the real world. That's been going on much longer than industrial farming which is just here today, gone tomorrow vandalism in my opinion.
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There is to some extent TM for that is in effect what worms and other insects do although accepted it is somewhat less dramatic!
A lot damage has been done by farmers through sticker plaster remedy in the form of lots of fertilisers but many are learning - if for no other reason than fertilisers are not cheap!
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There is to some extent TM for that is in effect what worms and other insects do although accepted it is somewhat less dramatic!
Take your point Icy - but look at the different outcomes :(
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It is certainly an interesting argument. I've said before and no doubt will again, that I started off just wanting to grow organic carrots as it has been proven that they take up chemicals and you then eat these... but gradually became fully organic.
I have also damaged my back permanently thanks to digging! I have got most movement back over the past 3 years but I will never again be able to touch my toes without being curled up. So I found myself moving towards no-dig, and have built several raised beds in which I'm now growing things. And it really does make life easier and I'm hoping that the soil structure will get better and better. Don't think that no-dig means you don't dig though - you have still got to shovel manure into wheelbarrows and then onto the plots!!! And then in order to keep control of weeds, you hoe and pull them continually, having to be more vigilant because you don't want perennials to take hold.
And if anyone with horrible clay soils wants encouragement, my Dad has a soil which I used to make little yellow pots from as a child... he has never been able to really dig it (and it looked horrible if he did) Since he retired, he's bunged all his old pots of compost, and that of all the planters and boxes on one bed as mulch. It's now fantastic and perfectly diggable. Good old worms have dug it for him. I can only imagine what the whole garden would have been if he'd done this 40 years ago when they bought the house!
moonbells
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@terracemax
if modern farming methods "destroyed the structure and life within the soil" - it surely would result in smaller crops....
Not initially, though eventually it will.
The roots of modern petro-chemical farming are to be found during WWII. It was understood even then that chemical based farming would damage the land, but was adopted as a necessary evil to produce larger crops during the ration years. Unfortunately after the war no-one returned to the older methods as the drive for profit took over.
The farmer is forced to use chemicals for several reasons; to keep costs down, as the supermarkets will always go for the cheapest crop as they have shareholders to look out for; many modern hybrids rely on chemical intervention, despite alledgedly being stronger or more resistant (it is worth noting that many of the commercial seed producers ultimately belong to the same agro-petrochemical companies that sell the fertilizers, herbicides and pesticides to the farmer); the commercial grower is forced to produce uniformity of colour, shape and ripening time, this is most easily achieved through chemicals; many farmers practice mono-culture, this is only possible with chemicals or else disease sets in without the crop rotation.
It is also worth asking, why if modern hybrids are more resistant to pests and disease than the older open-pollinating varieties, why do they rely so heavily on chemicals, their supposed bred-in resistance seems weak.
Modern farming is driven purely by profit (unfortunately the farmer himself sees little of this money and the PLCs are the ones raking it in), the land is being polluted and eroded and will not continue producing bumper yields forever. I have no idea how they'll manufacturer all these artificial fertilizers as oil becomes mre scares. Unfortunately the supermarkets cannot really change their behaviour as they are obliged by law to make as much profit as possible for the shareholder.
Personally I do not view digging (ploughing) as a problem, erosion occurs now because soil is used again and again, it is not left to settle nor to pasture and so blows and washes away. The problem is overuse rather than tilling itself.
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Chemical farming has roots further back than the 1940's; some years ago, I read the autobiography of one of the first organic farmers in the UK. They'd been forced to use chemical fertilisers by the government in WW1, and it had ruined their light soil. He ended up being unable to pay his rent on time because the farm was, basically, ruined by it, and had a long struggle to get it going again by keeping large numbers of pigs which manured as they went. I think the problem really got out of hand in the 1950's and 60's, after the war, when they went for maximum production at all costs. The CAP hasn't helped subsequently; I remember the case of a farmer in Cornwall who got a large grant to 'improve' land which was earmarked for a nature reserve, and which didn't even belong to him!
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Maybe if I was running a large field system for single crop agricultural production then quite a lot of factors would encourage me to look at ploughing and routine digging. But I don’t really want to be a farmer, I,m an urban person, with a 5 rod plot round the back of the bus garage, where I want to grow a whole range of crops with different harvesting times.
So when I was first casting round for ideas, farming driven by retailing didn’t seem like the model of food production which could offer too many useful practices. I wanted small amounts of stuff a few times a week, rather than a tractor full of ‘just in time’ beetroot when prices were at their highest.
As well as allotmenteering, I do quite a bit of walking in the highlands, where its been interesting to see some of the crofts destroyed at the time of the clearances. Those houses in the glens have long since been broken up and the building material used for sheep pens / new walls, but you can still see the way the raised beds were used before the people were driven off.
There must be lots of other cultures which have top tips for home growing and while it may have marginal appeal for the telly companies, I would really like to see a gardening programme looking at the way different cultures grow their home veg (if only as some light relief from the ‘24 hours to throw everything into a skip, paint a pergola and do some decking’ genre).
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I don't know how it works, but I've seen some really interesting pics of intensive vegetable cultivation in Mali (where my wife's family originated); insterad of raised beds, they use small sunken beds with raised paths, to keep the plants moist.
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I've seen vegetables grown similar to this in India. Earth up the soil as with potatoes and then plant in the dip. Watering is easier - just run it along the bottom of the trench.
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I feel my ability to contribute to this thread is now being challenged, there is so much knowledge put forward, particularly on the history and politics of farming. This is definitely a serious and interesting subject, and access to other cropping methods would be fascinating. I am absorbing the case for no-dig with genuine attention, I feel I should perhaps section off a small area of my plot for a no-dig experiment. Then I believe I will be able to contribute with confidence.
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......instead of raised beds, they use small sunken beds with raised paths, to keep the plants moist.
This works well - I've tried it last year in a small way, on lettuce, and just dug out a channel in one bed and planted in that. Offers a bit of wind protection too. I think it was something I read by Bob Flowerdew that prompted me.
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I'm doing no dig this year. (well it's past the solstice, so it's the new year for me!)
I dug my new four beds this year from scratch, but hope never to have to dig them again now. My soil is heavy clay so that took a lot of work and I don't want to have to repeat it. The soil will never be walked on (raised beds).
I've spread a layer of rotted manure and compost and covered that with cardboard on beds that are not used over the winter. The other beds will be mulched in the spring.
When I planted my garlic in the autumn, I mulched half the bed and dug an equal amout of compost into the other half to see if there is any difference.
I will however, plant my spuds in the normal way as I reckon the slugs will eat them all if I just cover them with plastic.
I enjoy digging, but will save that pleasure for turning the compost heap and digging new beds. And I really did enjoy searching for treasure last year when I dug them up.
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On the subject of intensive agriculture and the use of chemicals and pesticides, the move towards Integrated Crop Management including IPM (Integrated Pest Management) must be seen as a good thing. I don't see that we can expect the multinationals to change overnight, but for example, recent EU legislation on pesticide approvals has forced the issue, and almost all major growers in the UK have taken on board the practices of biological control, albeit with limited use of some pesticides.
For those interested in research and info on these issues there are a coupe of links:
http://www.defra.gov.uk/science/Project_Data/DocumentLibrary/CE0175/CE0175_1673_FRP.doc
http://www.defra.gov.uk/science/Project_Data/DocumentLibrary/AR0306/AR0306_1701_FRP.doc
http://www.ippc.orst.edu/cicp/index.htm
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I think the skills we learn - and pass on - as allotmenters will be pretty valuable in the peak oil age...
Without cheap fossil fuels (2010?) I can't see how large scale agriculture of any sort can work...
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I think the skills we learn - and pass on - as allotmenters will be pretty valuable ...
I think that getting onto the soil and physically growing food should be a mandatory part of the school curriculum.
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...and basic cooking, knitting and sewing, joinery and childcare too...
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ditto.
I did cooking at school (as an option) and also was taught cooking, sewing and knitting at home.
Wish someone had taught me carpentry too. I'd love to make stuff from wood, but don't know where to start. Grandad did a lot of carpentry, but he went to the big allotment in the sky before I got interested in it.
And there is nothing more vital on this earth than learning childcare. Most people (from what I've seen of "kids of today" ;)) haven't a clue!
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That feels a bit drastic to me, are you sure its fair for us to redesign the core curriculum according to our own personal hobbies and interests?
I don’t have any problem in giving people real choices in some of these things, but I could easily see how compulsory gardening could end up raising a generation of resentful shed burners
;)
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That feels a bit drastic to me, are you sure its fair for us to redesign the core curriculum according to our own personal hobbies and interests?
ooh that's a point - we should include horse riding too. Oh and maybe reading! ;)
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Most people (from what I've seen of "kids of today" ) haven't a clue!
I think poor parenting is almost inevitable if society rewards those who ditch their kids to 'work' and leaves those at-home carers undervalued and isolated... in these unnatural conditions quality child care is almost impossible IMHO
On the broader educational point, I guess we should just teach kids more how to provide themselves with food, clothes and shelter. These are anything but hobbies and interests. It'll never happen in a society which wants to sell these fundamental things as products, though...
Oh and maybe reading!
Schools don't teach reading, they teach synthetic phonics...
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Don't forget bricklaying, accounts, plumbing, catching your own fish, weaving for beginners, stone masonry, glass blowing, and pottery though :)
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It has just occurred to me, of all the adult and educational courses I have seen in my town - Coventry, I have never seen any courses on vegetable growing or general self sufficiency ... there must be a demand out there ... this site is proof of that !
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Don't forget bricklaying, accounts, plumbing, catching your own fish, weaving for beginners, stone masonry, glass blowing, and pottery though
...none of these are essential - especially accounts!!!
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Accounts not essential Max, are you absolutely sure? because that would drive a coach and horses through the very future of financial regulation as an essential component of outcome focussed performance management frameworks!
OK I’m being a bit silly there, but the real point, for me, is that we live in a 21st Century global economy, where specialisation gives me the time to go and grub about in the allotment one minute and surf the internet the next.
To be truthful, I’m not sure any of the things you or I mentioned are essential (or rather will be in 10 years time). I think I would settle for an education system that developed flexible enquiring minds, with the capacity to adapt, learn and make rational choices, plus the promotion of a value system which recognises worth in diversity and value as more than a price ticket.
Beyond that I think people probably need to pick their own path with the good counsel of as many knowledgeable mentors as they can lay their hands on.
I would like to make allotmenteering as appealing to young folk as possible, but I can see it would have as much appeal as compulsory sports lessons to some poor conscripts. And as we all know, plants won’t grow properly if there are unhappy people around.
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Take your point about conscription, John.
However, you say
we live in a 21st Century global economy,
Even supposing economic growth can be maintained as finite resources dwindle away...The global economy relies on huge amounts of cheap fuel: it's a sine qua non. This cheap fuel will no longer be available when my children grow up. Therefore it would appear sensible to prepare them for a world without the trappings of the global economy you allude to. To prepare them for a world which will no longer exist seems futile, at best...
Having experienced the primary education system recently - it struck me that developing enquiring minds was not a priority- to me the school system is mainly day care for kids so that parents can return to work and keep the wheels of the economy turning. Hence breakfast/ after-school clubs...
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I am :). Teachers are not a cause of the school system...
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Interesting discussion this one!
In my opinion -
We can contribute by teaching those that we come in contact with, and mulling around ideas like this to come up with solutions.
May seem like a small thing.
The real changes for the better can't take place without people in government who are able and willing to make informed decisions to regulate purely profit based organisations so that they are unable to waste or damage the earth's resources.
People who are courageous enough to propose and pass legislation to achieve this, are few and far between, and are voted into power by us and are part of the wider "us".
They won't get into power or stay in power whilst the majority of people don't know about or understand the effect of wasting or damaging resources. They can do some educating via our schools and media such as TV, internet, books and magazines.
But...again...we can contribute by teaching those that we come in contact with, and mulling around ideas like this to come up with solutions.
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May seem like a small thing.
Forget hopeless politics, it's the only (realistic) thing I reckon Jenny...
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I can see plenty of diversity of views here TM
The problem for me with simply making choices in the name of ‘the scarce resources of the planet’ is that it’s an argument that has been running for at least the last 30 years as far as I can remember. And while resources are clearly unevenly and unfairly distributed, you do run the risk of waiting an awful long time for the scarcity argument to be proven right - similar to the old Marxist economic determinists who predicted the inevitable downfall of capitalism, who will be proven right one day but its not very much compensation to all the generations hanging around in the meantime.
On the subject of breakfast and after school clubs, I think they are of really good ways of helping to deliver some life chances to excluded communities. I wouldn’t really like to go back to the sort of society of even ten years ago, when parents choices about their own lives, including the opportunity to work or study, were restricted simply by having no reasonable childcare options available to them.
As for the enquiring minds thing, I also reckon that the pre-conditions for enquiring minds are full stomachs, warm homes, and decent cloths. If breakfast and after school clubs help families just to achieve these things, by impacting on economic exclusion, then they seem a good thing in my book.
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you do run the risk of waiting an awful long time for the scarcity argument to be proven right
How about winter 2006? Gas prices are already predicted to be a REAL problem for householders and industry...Record oil prices this year...You don't have to be Mystic Meg to see the tide is turning...
On the subject of breakfast and after school clubs, I think they are of really good ways of helping to deliver some life chances to excluded communities.
What about the life chances of a 6 year old stuck in an institution from 8 am until 6 pm every day...
If breakfast and after school clubs help families just to achieve these things, by impacting on economic exclusion, then they seem a good thing in my book.
What if they don't?
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Well in the next few weeks i shall be taking some practical action on this front by getting my school growing club under way. I shall fill you in on whether this produces environmentally aware good citizens or I-hate-gardening cynics.
Session 1 is going to be devoted to sawing up planks and making raised bed frames, and sending some seeds and compost home..... session 2 is open to suggestions..... come on guys stop theorising and help me out here. What next.....
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Hmm, that feels like a successful problem found for every solution.
All prices are at their highest level ever- its what they call inflation.
Its not the first time there has been a shortage of fuel and there are plenty of other sources of energy.
After school clubs are not ‘institutions’ and if these things don’t impact on exclusion then clearly they couldn’t be described as good for doing so.
Still, its better to have tried and failed as they say……
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I have to say, I do begin to wonder why some people even bother having kids....I mean if you can shove them out the door at 6am and pick them up at 8, when do you spend any time with them? And isn't it showing them, that money and things are most imortant? Family and life come where?
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Well in the next few weeks i shall be taking some practical action on this front by getting my school growing club under way. I...2 is open to suggestions..... come on guys stop theorising and help me out here. What next.....
How about giving them a lesson on how plants grow, what they need for growth, how seeds germinate? Do some quick ones first like broad beans, so they can see the shoots. If you need any text, I've got some reasonably straightforward stuff from college. How old are these children by the way?
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Hmm, that feels like a successful problem found for every solution.
Solutions have to bear some relation to social and economic reality.
there are plenty of other sources of energy.
Can you name one which will replace cheap oil/gas? (please don't say hydrogen or renewables)
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How about giving them a lesson on how plants grow, what they need for growth, how seeds germinate? Do some quick ones first like broad beans, so they can see the shoots. If you need any text, I've got some reasonably straightforward stuff from college. How old are these children by the way?
HDRA have some really good info online for school gardening clubs...
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Kids are all boys aged 11 to 18. My daughters are convinced I will have no takers for a growing club but I am more optimistic. I have the belief that if I find something enjoyable it must be inherently enjoyable to anyone with the ability or willingness to give it a try... An egotistic view of the world I admit but one which is obviously true. Lol.
Keep those suggestions coming!
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Take some cut out pictures of some veg plants and the names of the veg - and get 'em to match them up. Breaks the ice and gets them talking about food...
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...Keep those suggestions coming!
Giant pumpkin competition? maybe not enough room, but some sort of competition?
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Tallest sunflower, longest marrow, heaviest onion, longest bean....
I started off asking the kids what they were interested in, some were the roses, flowers etc....lull them in with a false sense of security....craftily get them planting seeds for you....and when those liittle darlings see their babies germinating..you gottem!!
Have to say, I was so chuffed, cos one of the lads I had in the Gardening Club, left in September for High School, and blow me down, he's started a Gardenng Club there!! Nathan, if you just get one whose interested, then it's so worth while... Good luck!
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I like the idea of some friendly competition, in groups, so individuals don't feel pressured. Some may just enjoy being there though ...
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Teachers are not a cause of the school system...
I should think not; it drives a lot of us round the twist! If it was up to me, no class would have more than ten kids, that way we'd really get time to teach them. As it is, you get a class of 25-30, sometimes more, and out of an hour's lesson, you've got about two minutes for each one. Very often, most of the hour is spent dealing with minor disorder, and the better-behaved ones just have to be left to get on with it. That's not to mention the restrictions of an imposed, and often thoroughly boring, syllabus, and a load of other issues on tyop.
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I think the skills we learn - and pass on - as allotmenters will be pretty valuable in the peak oil age...
Without cheap fossil fuels (2010?) I can't see how large scale agriculture of any sort can work...
It is a worry. Though fertilisers can be manufactured from coal as readily as oil, though there seems to be no hurry to instigate such changes, nor would that solve the problem that exists in modern farming practice.
Sometimes it seems to me that the peak of human achievment was high farming, and everything else is mere ephemera, that has allowed the human race to reach levels of global unsustainability and generate problems for which we have no answer.
Consider the following:
- Oil -- it has nurtured progress and devlopment in industry, travel, communications, agriculture, health; but we are so reliant on it as a resourse, we have transformed marginal lands and revolutionised sterility (through plastics) but now where, when it is gone what can replace it.
- Modern medicine -- so good for so long, but now we have discovered that we have unwittingly bred a race of superbugs, resistant to the medicines we have. The modern world with its high movement is not equipped to deal with even the temporary breakdown of allopathies effectivness.
- Modern agriculture -- an illusion of progress, an insipid destruction of land and farmer and of genetic diversity, so reliant on the above two that when one or both fail what happens to all the marginal land on which the burgoning global population now rely. There is no fail safe mechanism, and yet failure is a certainty if we carry on like this.
Now all I need is a sandwich board with, "The end is nigh!" emblazoned on it ;)
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It's all very well giving parents the choice to go to work, but many of us do not have the choice my mum had, to stay at home and bring up our children.
We don't have any yet, simply because the main thing stopping us is the fact that we cannot survive on one salary. I do not see the point of having children only for someone else to look after them as I do not believe this is good for the child and I do not want them growing up learning values that I disagree with.
At the moment I do not see how we can afford to have children and bring them up in this way, though. (Especially as our current home is just a two-bed flat - we couldn't afford the mortgage on some place bigger and we do not buy extravagant things.
I'm sure we're not alone in this. The government just wants to keep as many of us as possible in the work force, so we are happy little consumers paying taxes so we might be able to retire at 86.
One day, we will find a way...
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Sproutings could be a good introduction to growing things at this time of year, a quick result from mung beans or alphalpha would help get some basic discussions going about how seeds work, the need for water and some warmth and the idea that different sized seeds need to be planted at different depths. You could even use some of the spoutings to experiment with transplanting things before you move on to soil based crops in a couple of months time.
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Reading through the variety of comments I realise that for me the issue is one of accountability.
For example here in Edinburgh the council has made so many changes to traffic and roads in the centre that even the police think they are unworkable and don't fine drivers contravening the constantly changing regulations.
These changes are costing millions. They have made traffic jams worse hence increasing pollution. There is no evidence of holistic planning whatever. Meantime the next article in the newspaper warns us of impending huge increases in council tax..... The council is not accountable since changing our councillors would not put a stop to the stupidity of these actions. They are not sacked, they are not fined, they are not made to fix what they have got wrong.
The same is true of schools and education. I started teaching in 1972 and since then there have been constant, unnecessary changes billed as innovation but often reverting to previous systems by another name and usually decreasing the amount of time I have available for what I do best : teach. I don't think the content of the curriculum matters too much provided that there is breadth and progression. e.g. I loathed Home Economics at school and opted to take my dental appointments then yet I'm a skilled and successful cook (or so my mates tell me ;)) and I've done everything from reupholstering chairs to crocheting bedspreads. Self taught when I wanted the skills because I knew how to learn.
The same is true of a series of governments going back over a century at least which have made it impossible for most young people to get qualifications, a job, a spouse, a house and a family without putting their children in the care of someone else for the greater part of their young lives.
Phew! Now I've got that off my chest ... ;D
We have slanted the school garden club towards ecology - preserving local plants and habitats as well as providing sensual gardens: up till now touchy, feelly plants and scented plants for the blind. The youngsters have really enjoyed researching this. Young people really care about ecological issues when they understand them. They sometimes need some help to know what they can do to make things better. The numbers attending vary - sometimes there are more staff helpers than young people! but there is a core of about 8-10 regular attenders.
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Yes, but lots of people who express frustration about the amount of traffic in urban centres are the same people who insist on driving all the way in and all the way out again every day. I wish I had a quid for every driver who told me they would take public transport if only it was better; studies show that the quality of provision only makes a very small impact on shifting motorists into other forms of transport. I think David Begg once observed that the greatest factor which inspired people to switch to public transport in urban centres was when traffic congestion got so bad that they simply couldn't move around by car (London is quite a good example of that).
The thing which really hacked me off most about what I saw concerning Edinburgh was the political party who spent lots of time being in favour of less road spending and more regulation at a national level but then opposed congestion charging locally. As for the council tax point, the only way any council will be more accountable is if more of the cost of services they provide is actually raised locally rather than through central taxation or unified business rates and somewhere along the line that means voting for more local revenue raising powers rather than less (but that’s another story).
I accept that it may not be the view of some others but I think we have made considerable advances over the last century in almost every sphere of life, this idea that things were better in the past is just simply wrong. Universal education, public health provision, descent homes and increased life expectancy are all testament to that. I don’t believe there was ever some kind of 19th century ideal, in fact for most people life was nasty, short, brutish and cruel. I cast my vote for the inspiring possibilities that a technological future can offer, combined with the active involvement of as many people as possible in shaping how it takes place.
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I accept that it may not be the view of some others but I think we have made considerable advances over the last century in almost every sphere of life, this idea that things were better in the past is just simply wrong. Universal education, public health provision, descent homes and increased life expectancy are all testament to that.
At one, superficial, level this is all true. Unfortunately every 'success' you list is limited to a privileged few in developed countries. Stand in a 'labour ward' in Mali, for example and tell me your values have been a success...You can't.
Moreover, all your successes have come at a terrible costs to 'others' (e.g. they were built on slavery or exploitation) and/or the environment.
If you weigh the successes of industrial society against the damage to our children's planet I'm afraid you wouldn't even break even. The corollary of blind material progress is always going to be environmental degradation. Until we unlock this conundrum we're behaving like a snake eating its own tail...
I would cast my vote for people who can see past the hype of greed and consumerism, or 'our way of life' as Blair calls it. In other words I stay at home on polling day and plant some seeds instead...
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Thanks Clanger. :)
IMHO politicians can't justifiably accuse anybody of anything. I just don't feel answerable to them in any sense, ethical or otherwise.
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Shouldn't that outfit be black? ;)
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Wardy I am with you and my answer is
To Dig
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I agree dig
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I was of the same mind Wardy, but I didn't dare pop my head up !!!
My decision? To dig (today anyway)
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Definitely not to dig.......she has a bread maker!! Use ya loaf... ;D
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Nice one Wardy that sorted it ....
Animadvertistine, ubicumque stes, fumum recta in faciem ferri? ..Jim
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Wardy. Have you seen Growmore's last post. Is that how they speak in Doncaster?? ;D ;D
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My solution is, dig when there's a real reason, but not just for the sake of digging.
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Animadvertistine, ubicumque stes, fumum recta in faciem ferri? ..Jim
Ever noticed how wherever you stand, the smoke goes right into your face?
;D ;D ;D
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Or as that old b.....er Voltaire put it : "Il faut cultiver son jardin" :P
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Wasn't it Diocletian who said it first? He faced a total crisis with an empire that was simply two big for one man to rule alone, split it up between himself and four other hyper-ambitious emperors, dominated the scene for 20 years, then retired and forced the other senior emperor to retire at the same time, handing over to the next generation. When it all fell apart and they begged him to come back, he refused, reputedly saying that he preferred to cultivate his cabbages.
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The stuff that gets posted on this website is awesome ...
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From what I have read "no-dig" is the home garden adaptation of the commercial "no-till" method of farming. No-till was introduced in the 1950's as a fast, consequently lower cost, alternative to ploughing. It's entire existence as a method is due to economics, viewing soil as a commodity to be utilised, ignoring better husbandry techniques in the pursuit of an industralised approach to food production. While no form of cultivation is perfect no-till is certainly more detrimental to sustainable food production than ploughing. It is viewed by organic certifying bodies over here to be so detrimental to sustainable production, which is now the goal of certified organic protocols, that is a prohibited, as opposed to approved or restricted, practice. No-dig/no-till methods actually encourage leaching of nutrients and subsequent ground water contamination in all but semi-arid or desert climates. This is due to the long term establishment of vertical channels in the soil that allow the unchecked flow of water downwards, taking any dissolved compounds with it.
The addition of a winter mulch, probably disingenuously to some, will make the problem worse as it will absorb excessive rainfall, rather than permit surface run-off into discreet channels, and allow these large quantities of water to penetrate the entire soil profile in amounts sufficent to promote more leaching. A more throrough analysis of this can be found at:
http://ewr.cee.vt.edu/environmental/teach/gwprimer/group06/impact.htm and at:
http://ewr.cee.vt.edu/environmental/teach/gwprimer/group06/corn.htm
Presently no-till is widely used throughout the "bread-basket", the great plains, of the U.S. to produce corn, soybeans (both are mostly used for animal feeds) and wheat. It's speed allows solo farmers to cultivate far larger acreages than even a farmer with one or two employees can manage using more traditional cultivation techniques. As has been noted it is very dependent upon petro-chemical compounds and, as has also been noted, large quantities are used. It is indicative of the unsustainability of this practice that the quantities of these compounds used in U.S. agriculture doubled every ten years between 1945, coinciding approxomaitely with the widespread adaption of petro chemicals into farming, and 1995, when genetically modified plants were introduced (and resulted in a reduction in agro-chemical use). However, during these four decades, yields per acre remained essentially the same, even with the introduction of F1hybrids, with their increased vigour and yield, in the 1950's.
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Err Tractor ! Anyone have a tractor i can borrow ?
Please with a plough on the back ?
That's Tratorrrrrrr Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Happy New Year to you all
Each to his own
Carl
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The immediately obvious difference between no-till and no-dig is that no-till uses large quantities of chemicals, no-dig doesn't. There may be other differences, I'm not sure. Anyone know more, or have any references I could chase up?
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.. It is viewed by organic certifying bodies over here to be so detrimental to sustainable production, which is now the goal of certified organic protocols, that is a prohibited, as opposed to approved or restricted, practice. No-dig/no-till methods actually encourage leaching of nutrients and subsequent ground water contamination in all but semi-arid or desert climates.....Presently no-till is widely used throughout the "bread-basket", the great plains, of the U.S.....
Very interesting info John. Maybe the no-till methods cause problems because of monoculture and the large bare areas (no hedges or permanent plants) involved too?
There is obviously a wide range of views on this, http://www.newfarm.org/depts/notill/index.shtml
No-till here is not used widely commercially, more often lighter cultivation is used, and they involve crop rotation. Mulches such as green manures or cover crops are used to hold soil nutrients over winter, and it has been established that nutrient leaching is vastly reduced. I understand that timing of incorporating green manures is vital in pest control though, there needs to be a gap before planting.
I seem to recall reading an article on US no-till where some work was done that showed that small amounts of tillage on no-till farms done around drainage pipes solved or at least reduced the problem, as did avoiding applying manures near the drain areas, and also closing off the drain channels for a couple of weeks after manure application. I am not confident that this would cure the problem longterm though, I prefer the more integrated approach of light tillage and green manures.
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Well in the next few weeks i shall be taking some practical action on this front by getting my school growing club under way. I shall fill you in on whether this produces environmentally aware good citizens or I-hate-gardening cynics.
Session 1 is going to be devoted to sawing up planks and making raised bed frames, and sending some seeds and compost home..... session 2 is open to suggestions..... come on guys stop theorising and help me out here. What next.....
A topic which was very popular indeed at my wife's school was chick hatching. http://www.livingeggs.co.uk/ are one of the providers.
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The immediately obvious difference between no-till and no-dig is that no-till uses large quantities of chemicals, no-dig doesn't. There may be other differences, I'm not sure. Anyone know more, or have any references I could chase up?
From my perspective the difference is one of scale, not of commodities or practice. If I remember correctly you personally, and many others here, are gardening organically. In exchanges I have had with some other "no-diggers" it was apparent there was no reluctance to use commodities in a hand sprayer similar to what commercial farmers, till or no-till, put into 300 gallon spray tanks! Regarding practice, whether a nitrate comes from organic matter or from a little white petro-chemical ball it is still highly water soluble and subject to leaching. The best way to reduce leaching is correct timing of applications. I would imagine that the flooding that you site suffered in October (?) resulted in a complete loss of nitrates available at that time, as it would anywhere, and rendered any spread mulch less nutritious.
Very interesting info John. Maybe the no-till methods cause problems because of monoculture and the large bare areas (no hedges or permanent plants) involved too?
Those conditions certainly don't help. Ultimately it all returns to economics. Since the North-east Dairy Compact, a price support system for dairy farmers here in the N.E. U.S., came into being there has been a widespread use among dairy farmers of winter rye as a cover crop. That they didn't use it prior to this increase in prices suggests to me, although I could well be wrong of course, that the expense of the seed was seen as an unaffordable luxury. I am convinced that, on the whole, farmers truly want to utilise good husbandry on their farms (I know I do and I'm only a tenant) but low prices, which had barely risen between 1950 and 1995, when the compact came into being, stymied these goals.
The link you provided is an illustration of another attempt to improve husbandry in no-till cultivation. Rodale, who could best be described as the U.S. equivalent of the HDRA, are not the first to try. Hopefully they can have more success overcoming drawbacks than their predecessors. In April of 2004 I drove a car back from California, including through the bread basket states of Kansas, Nebraska, Illinois and Ohio, and I have to regrettably report I didn't see one single field put down to a cover crop. I was in upstate New York last week though and I did see recently spread manure on top of snow, itself on top of frozen ground, though! Doh! When change comes I think it will come slowly.
No-till here is not used widely commercially, more often lighter cultivation is used, and they involve crop rotation.
I don't come back to the U.K. often, and for the past 25 years only in winter, but I don't ever recall having seen no-till cultivation in the U.K.. Perhaps I saw it but didn't realise it, being used to seeing no-till on a large scale. Do you know where is it used in the U.K.?
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the only short-term fertilisers I use are wood ash, pee and sometimes comfrey extract, in small quantities. Given the quantities I have, I'll probably have to use a lot next year just to get rid of some of it. Apart from the second (my pee barrel is full to the brim) these only go on when plants are growing actively, otherwise they're inevitably going to be wasted. When I got flooded most of the mulch I'd got down floated off and ended up at the bottom of the hedge. That hasn't happened for several years, since I improved the flood defences, but other plots still flood regularly, and I'd imagine a lot does wash out. I did have a flood the day of the tornado; it was the worst ever recorded in the UK, and only about three miles away, so I'm not complaining too much about the flood defences! We don't often get weather like that, though it is the second time in six years I've had the plot. I don't kknow how badly it was flooded, as I was ill and couldn't leave the house, but it can't have lasted long as it didn't seem to affect the plants at all. Previous floods killed or badly damaged most of my vegetables.
I think there's a great deal of difference between digging for a purpose and 'just digging'. If you've got all the perennial weeds out, what's the point in annual digging?
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...... Do you know where is it used in the U.K.?
Really only on very small farms John, usually those that only supply the immediate locality and farm completely organically.
Most of the effort in this subject is being made on introducing farmers to min-till, or reduced cultivation techniques, rather than zero cultivation - these studies show the level at which work is being done: http://www.smi.org.uk/casestudies/
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But once it's cleared, it's no digging for me... Until the ground tells me otherwise. Can someone please tell me this approach is OK, or not?
Dominique - Thats the approach I used. You've got to get the perennial weeds out. If you've got small beds then I think the no dig approach is ok. My beds are 24ft x 12ft and most are clear of perennials so they just get a fork over and are 'dug' when lifting the crops. the others have mares tail and nettles etc that comes through the fence from neighbours plot so have to be dug on a regular basis to keep them as clean as possible. Just remember it is a hobby and do what you are comfortable with.
Lynn
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Yes, as you so rightly said lynndan, it is a hobby ... we can never emulate the professional level of skill or accomplishment when tending on an occasional basis ... we can only do our best.
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Any one seen my tractor yet ???
Carl
Wow who'd have thought 2006 was going to start sooooo hot under the typing !!
*******NOTE*********
You knowjuts a thought to bare in mind is that if people in history hadn't done some thing different and tried different things we ALL might jjust be leading the same life !!!
Imagine !
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Wow, finally made it to the end of this thread and thought maybe this dumb blonde should reply.........
I dug my 2 plots when I first took them on as they were smothered in weeds - nettles, couch, brambles - the usual suspects. I dig where my spuds are going as I like to get in lots of organic matter in early spring - as some of you know, I have no access to mains water for watering in summer so have to provide my babies as much moisture retentitve matter as possible. Other than that, I fork and incorporate compost over areas as crops are cleared, but 75% of my plots are always in use - year round. Those on our site who use green manures never have waterlogging problems...those that rotavate rotavate rotavate always have puddles, stones and weeds! So, I am an initial digger, then more of a forker to be honest. ;D
One last little thing that kinda got my back up......parents that work, I work, okay, only when the kids are at school, but we have to make ends meet. No, I don't understand well off families where the kids are farmed out to clubs and have nannies etc, but are you suggesting that those people aren't entitled to have kids? Christ, the population of the planet would be a hell of a lot smaller. And what a bore if we were all the same...don't you think? I guess you could claim lots of benefits and not work and have lots of kids and be a stay at home mum or dad, but I don't. There are mums at my sprogs school who have to work, HAVE to work and they send their kids to the local after school club, and these aren't well off families, these are families who struggle, who don't have holidays, not even in the UK, who shop at Aldi's and Lidls, they HAVE to work....sorry, I am ranting, and I am obviously not as clever as you guys with your long words and political views............but this really really did iritate me......
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We live opposite our oldest's primary school. At 6:00 pm when we're sitting down to our meal, I can see all the little 'uns (some of them are still just babies really) coming out of the after school club. Being met by their parents - some of whom don't even make it for then. To me, it's like a scene from Stalin's Russia - children handed over to the state to look after...
I know most of the parents concerned. Nice people all of them. Most of them pretty affluent. Two of them are barristers and work every hour the Lord (Chancellor) sends. They are both school governors. (!)
I think these people have got the balance wrong - they have a choice and they have chosen their careers, two cars, two holidays etc. Normally I wouldn't care about their lifestyle choices - but the fact they are school governors and somehow in control of my children's education I find, at least, ironic.
If you don't have a choice and you have to work to keep the wolf from the door that's an entirely different matter.
I gave up work to look after my kids - not because I'm a saint. But because I could (just about) afford to when we moved to smaller house and grew a lot of our own food. (But not as much as you do EJ!). I couldn't really see an option.
I don't take any benefits myself, but resent the implication that parents that stay at home shouldn't. After all, they are providing the generations of the future who might just prop this crazy economy up...more so than any barrister ever will... For me, it's a question of true social worth.
I hope this clarifies what I meant EJ. I'm not going to say sorry and kiss your a*rse just because that would be easier. But I am sorry if I hacked you off... :-\ :)
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Happy to join in the debate, but perhaps not in the dig bit? Blimey, can't believe I said that!! But very quickly! I stayed at home for 11 years, worked at night, went to college at night, I work now, but I'm the one that takes the kids to school and picks them up....and I have to agree with Max, if you need to to keep the wolves from the door, that is different completely, if you need to to afford your 10th holiday skiiing, then that's where my problem lies....I too have no wish to hack anyone off, but feel strongly too..anyway, must dash cos I'm off digging! ;D
Oops forgot, I relocated to the watershed..... :-X
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The soil on my plot is heavy clay, the allotment site it is on was only started up last year. So due to this, I have done a fair bit of digging and incorperating organic material. I can't do any more digging at the moment because I'm recovering from a shoulder operation. Once fully fit, I will be doing more digging in of organic material.
Mark
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How deep do you get the spuds using that? I want to plant mine deeper since in that case there will be a bit more stem underground and hopefully a few more tubers as a result. I grow mine on the flat so there's no chance of burying stem later the way you do with earthing up.
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What an interesting thread, a real can of worms, and some strong opinions too and Wardy now you've got a posh planter to hang in your posh shed OOOOOOOOOooooo get you!!!!! ;)
and before I forget..........except for a couple of raised beds ........I dig, I actually quite like digging ::)
Strange person that I am ;D
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Personally it is what you are used to. If you enjoy digging and you are able to do that then great. If you do not like doing the digging then no dig is the way to go. I can see the benifits of the no dig to the bugs and animals. It is all to do with personal opinion. If you get good crops from your allotment it does not really matter what methord you use. The key is to enjoy what you are doing and where you possibly can respect the bugs and wildlife that live on your site or plot.
The_Snail
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I don’t dig because it feels like I’m spending time and effort on something which doesn’t seem to have that much impact except visually, and I also like to mix veg and wild flowers together in the raised beds to help attract the bugs and beasties. I reckon no-dig and plenty of compost also gives me a much bigger worm population and they do all the digging I need done.
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This might be an interesting article I found just on the internet as I was searching for some info on manure and spuds.
This link is about non digging and how it works :)
http://www.permaculture.co.uk/mag/Articles/Cardboard_Revolution.html
It is about non digging. (Well semi non dig)
http://www.permaculture.co.uk/mag/Articles/clover.html
The_Snail
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From what I have read "no-dig" is the home garden adaptation of the commercial "no-till" method of farming. No-till was introduced in the 1950's as a fast, consequently lower cost, alternative to ploughing. It's entire existence as a method is due to economics, viewing soil as a commodity to be utilised, ignoring better husbandry techniques in the pursuit of an industralised approach to food production. While no form of cultivation is perfect no-till is certainly more detrimental to sustainable food production than ploughing. It is viewed by organic certifying bodies over here to be so detrimental to sustainable production, which is now the goal of certified organic protocols, that is a prohibited, as opposed to approved or restricted, practice. No-dig/no-till methods actually encourage leaching of nutrients and subsequent ground water contamination in all but semi-arid or desert climates. This is due to the long term establishment of vertical channels in the soil that allow the unchecked flow of water downwards, taking any dissolved compounds with it.
The addition of a winter mulch, probably disingenuously to some, will make the problem worse as it will absorb excessive rainfall, rather than permit surface run-off into discreet channels, and allow these large quantities of water to penetrate the entire soil profile in amounts sufficent to promote more leaching. A more throrough analysis of this can be found at:
http://ewr.cee.vt.edu/environmental/teach/gwprimer/group06/impact.htm and at:
http://ewr.cee.vt.edu/environmental/teach/gwprimer/group06/corn.htm
Presently no-till is widely used throughout the "bread-basket", the great plains, of the U.S. to produce corn, soybeans (both are mostly used for animal feeds) and wheat. It's speed allows solo farmers to cultivate far larger acreages than even a farmer with one or two employees can manage using more traditional cultivation techniques. As has been noted it is very dependent upon petro-chemical compounds and, as has also been noted, large quantities are used. It is indicative of the unsustainability of this practice that the quantities of these compounds used in U.S. agriculture doubled every ten years between 1945, coinciding approxomaitely with the widespread adaption of petro chemicals into farming, and 1995, when genetically modified plants were introduced (and resulted in a reduction in agro-chemical use). However, during these four decades, yields per acre remained essentially the same, even with the introduction of F1hybrids, with their increased vigour and yield, in the 1950's.
Well that settles it for me then, dig it is.
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Are you sure?
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Ooooo Wards!! It's so shiney!!! ;D You're not going to get it dirty, are you.. Well, I did absolutely no diggin cos it peed down!! Spent the afternoon prowling round mum's house grrrring.....
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Having read the article in Kitchen Garden Magazine by Bob Flowerdew, and having followed the posts in this threads, I've decided to join the No Dig Crew. ;D
The fact that I was out on the cold windblown allotment yesterday, freezing my butt off, clearing the parts of the lottie that the rotavaters don't reach, is merely a coincidence, and any rumours about me be a lazy bleep, are just scurrilous slander! ;)
P.S. Wardy, Ta for the tip about Kitchen Garden, I'm gonna change over when my subscription to GYO runs out! Far too posh for me, now I've read KG... :P
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ok ok im sold im going to dig one half and not the other !!! but im chosing carefully what i put where mind !!!
Carl
Errr so about that Half of a tractor that some one may have ?
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I had a delivery of 15 bags of sand today to dig in my allotment to lighten the heavy soil. It has been a super day just like spring.
I have prepared what is to be my carrot plot by digging 3 bags of sand in and raking to a fine tilth. It is the second time I have dug this plot and was delighted to see the soil just break up so easy.
I will continue to dig, as I find it very satisfying.
Can't comment on the other subject on this thread about whether to look after your own kids or not as mine are fortunately grown up. ;D ;D
Rosemary
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I love the look of that long no-bend planter Wardy, where did you get that?
As for digging, my husband actually likes doing the digging, so I will do the planting.
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Wardy!!!! Dibs is back!! ;D ;D ;D!! Oh....i like digging...no I don't....ahem...I don't like digging..... ;D
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i hate digging just cant do it , when i get my lottie oh says he wants nothing to do with it , all he will do is the digging thank godness
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Not keen on digging cos either my sciatica sets in or I dig up the bulbs ??? (Hi ya Dibber, you have been missed lots)
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Where on earth have been while all this was going on. I must say I found all the debate fascinating and refreshing (my mother who is French always says that the British never debate or discuss politics, implying, i feel, that we have no opinions)!
That said, as a stay at home mum, I believe that I have learned a very important lesson concerning the work/no-work argument. Happy parents makes for happy kids. I can't wait to return to my career. I think it continues to make me a more fully rounded individual that will be able to bring outside ideas and influences to my son, in turn helping him to be less sheltered and more rounded too. However, if you are happy to stay at home then your children no doubt will be happier too.
And to relate back to the question in hand. If you like to dig, then dig, if not, then don't, cos happy people make for happy plants too!
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:-[
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Please don't all shout at an old woman (mother and grandmother too :-* ) but I just feel this thread is another where thread discipline should have been used - don't get me wrong I am saying that because I enjoyed the section on education/working parents but could have missed it under Dig or No Dig. I have my own opinions on these subjects but being conscious of sticking to the thread subject would not feel happy to add to the discussion under the Edible Plants board!! Love a lively discussion and exhange of opinions - even if I am just listening - but couldn't someone just say "What about moving this to The Shed?" and pick the discussion up there? See my Ghandi quote below ;)
By the way I am an advocate of digging (regular short periods at a time) and anyway we don't have access to manure, large amounts of compost, leaves etc.
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I agree with your sentiments Wicker, but I believe that this thread was one of those that sparked Dan's comments ... I may be wrong of course, but I think the timing was about right, hence the subject just expended itself here. There is nothing to stop anyone restarting the relevant topic in the Shed ... I expect that will happen with all subsequent diversions ... I like the quote by the way.
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I've been digging today tum-tee-tum, I've been digging today.. ;)
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..interestingly one half of the plot was froxen solid, but the other half felt like sweet loam.. :D :D
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Presumably the frozen half was in shadow? or gets wind protection?
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I think it's a mixture of low winter sun and whre the shade is. The non-frozen part gets full sun as long as it lasts (not long in Scotland at this time of year >:()
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Went down to the allotment too today, grawrc, but ground way too hard to dig (same area as you) - or so I convinced myself - a few other plotholders there too but all just tidying up. By the way, I know o no "no dig" plots on our site.
Thanks for the courteous reply, Derek - was only joking cos if anyone shouted at me I can shout louder - years of experience ::)
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I was just digging to get the parsnips out and then tidy up. It wasn't a problem. Then I tried to "reseat" some onions raised by the birds or the frost but they were frozen solidly in place.
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No problems with chilled ground here (Coventry), I spent a couple of hours digging out a bit more couch grass. But it was very damp and cold, so pulled some leeks for fresh soup at tea time ... :)
I am always courteous by the way Wicker ...
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Nothing was frozen here, though it was still cold enough for my hands to go numb while I was digging. We had some sleet yesterday, and a little wet snow, but it's long gone.
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Dig today??? I wish I could have done... but it was not frozen, just pouring with rain and the roads have HUGE areas of standing water, I won't call them puddles, more ponds! :'( I didn't even bother going to the lottie... Still it was an excuse to finally go and see Harry Potter... Umm perhaps I should try some magic on the weather we are getting ??? ::)
This year I will dig the whole plot, but hope to reduce this digging in future years by the use of beds... depends on how well I can keep on top of the bindweed...
mat