Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => The Basics => Topic started by: EmmaLou on October 07, 2005, 10:44:46
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Just writing to vent my annoyance at the restrictions on my allotment!
Today I got a letter thanking me for the rent payment I had made. On a compliment slip with it was the message 'Please remove the swing from your plot', no explanation with it.
When I first got my lottie I discovered that my daughter only had a short attention span when it came to digging and pulling up weeds (she is only 2 afterall) and she kept running off and trampling over other peoples veg (spent most of the time trying to catch her!), so I decided to put an old swing on the plot to keep her amused. I also had the plan to grow beans and peas up it.
I gave the Town Council a phone call to find out exactly why I wasn't allowed it. The reason they gave me was that it "spoils the natural beauty of the place". They also said that they wouldn't allow benches or chairs. When I commented that there already appeared to be people using benches, she said that they would also have received letters asking them to remove them (I don't consider a note on a compliment slip a letter!). I was told to find another way to restrain my daughter although not to bring anything that would be permanent. This in itself is difficult as I already have to carry all my gardening equipment with me as we are not allowed sheds, so there is no way I could also bring say a push along car! I asked if it would be possible to put a little fence around part of the plot - no this wasn't allowed either. I told her that I had the intention of growing stuff up the swing to disguise it. No not allowed - everyone would want to do it if I was allowed. She questioned me as to why my daughter wasn't in nursery! Flipping cheek! Had to explain that she didn't get a free place until next September (I'm on benefits and can't afford to send her now). How very frustrating! None of these restrictions are on the contract I signed! >:(
Finally I suggested that I could shorten the swing. I think she was now fed up with me disturbing her, so she told me I should put it in writing to her and she would consider allowing it for one year until I put my daughter into nursery, as long as I shorten it. I guess that was a slight achievement.
I wonder if the people with ugly plastic compost bins have been asked to remove them? Or the people that leave rusty tools around have been asked to take them home? The place isn't of particular natural beauty as half the plots are overgrown and don't appear to be used (although we get told there is a huge waiting list for a plot). Maybe people take on the allotments and end up having to abandon them because of the endless restrictions.
Personally I love seeing the other allotment sites with sheds, benches etc. I don't think they ruin the natural beauty of the place - they are a sign of community spirit and proof that humans do exist! I would love to have somewhere to put my tools, rest my back after digging, amuse my daughter, oh and a toilet would be nice! I am so jealous of some of you lot that have all these things! You never see anyone at my site sitting and having a flask of tea and a chat.
Please someone let me know I'm not the only one!
:'( losing faith.
Emma
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Sorry to hear of your problem.
Is your site classed as an allotment or an allotment & leisure garden?
Here in Halton , Cheshire we encourage families and children and I would approve of a fold down swing or slide sandpit etc.
Read through your tenancy agreement and see what restrictions there are and try to speak to the allotment officer involved. If again you have no joy see your local councilor for his support.
Best of look
Alan
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Emma that sounds awful - i know all about trying to keep little people entertained whilst gardening, not easy with a 13 month old!
By the sounds of it your council should object to bean supports, fruit cages or anything that supports your plants- have people been asked to remove their runners & sunflowers? Load of rubbish >:( >:( >:(
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OMG! Nerve of it!! And not even allowed a bench or a seat. Amazing! More like a concentration camp than an allotment! What a shame, and it would have looked fab with beans growing over it and your daughter swinging on it! What about a sand pit sunken into the ground with a cover that could go on it when you leave......I suppose they would consider that permanent, but you could always disguise the cover......
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I think that is absolutely atrocious. In my experience allotment sites are not areas of beauty although they do have their own quirky charm. That woman had no right questioning whether your daughter should be in Nursery - it's up to you where she is until she is school age. As already suggested read your tenancy agreement carefully - a swing aint permanent, & no seats or benches................................well.
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I am appalled by what you have said about the restrictions Emma. As Beejay has said allotments are not landscaped gardens and surely they would want to encourage the next generation onto the allotment site. Where are all the next gardeners going to come from otherwise?
It is a stuffy and pompous attitude. Are they afraid it will encourage vandals or think you will sue if your daughter falls off it? Just can't understand that attitude. I think Alan has given you some good advice. >:( busy_lizzie
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I'm just glad that its not like that on our site - two people have put sheds where they shouldn't really just makes it awkward to drive pass but its not a problem as i've only just got the site. The council should be incouraging children of all ages to see where our vegtables come from and not sticking them in a nursery before they have to go to school. Ask fellows members if the swing bothers them and if not don't worry about it as long as the rest of the plot is not overgrown next year the will not see it through beans etc
Are the council trying to upset people to sell the land???
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Hi Emma,
really sorry to hear this, what a cheek!
Hope you have some joy once you have put it in writing, maybe she is a major jobs worth and was not happy you went ahead without telling them. I emailed the councildept to get permission for our shed, even though we had already laid the slabs to put it on. But they do not appear to have noticed we had gone ahead anyway.
A compliment slip is def. not acceptable written notice for something like this as far as I am concerned either.
DM
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She questioned me as to why my daughter wasn't in nursery!
Did you ask her why she wasn't in a home for deranged bureaucrats?
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If there's nothing in the contract to forbid it, you could write to one of your councillors, or your MP, about it. If nothing else, they would then be forced to try to find a plausible explanation, and they might well back down if they couldn't thnk of one.
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Thanks guys for the support! Glad to know some people aren't so stuck up!
Here is the link to my allotment contract. See what you make of it!
http://www.tring.gov.uk/info/allots.htm
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Oh Emma! How sad that you don't have a community spirit on your site. Particularly when you have your little girl with you.
Perhaps it is bad management that breeds that kind of attitude and does not encourage friendship.
When I got my plot, 2 of my friends, Stan and Barbara got one as well, and we are now next to each other. Stans shed is like a tea room, we all gather round and have a break, and a cup of tea, usually provided by Stan. Quite often there are 5 or more of us together, having a laugh and exchanging ideas and plants. Oh what a lovely summer it has been!!
Rosemary
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Didn't see anything about a swing on there Emma. Think they are being downright officious. Do think you should pursue this with your local councillor or the allotments officer. Just hate to think of them getting away with this. busy_lizzie
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I thought that the powers that be have in recent years been trying to get rid of the 'old' concept of allotment gardens....retired old men in flat caps (sorry if I have offended)
By trying to be Politically Correct they are now generally referred to as "Allotment & LEISURE Gardens" ....surely this is aimed at young families therefore swings and the like would be an option ...after all they are portable
On the other hand could it be the Health & safety aspect they are concerned about? All swings now have to have a certain surface etc. beneath them.....liability and all that
Derek
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I did wonder if it was the health and safety aspect, but the only answer they gave me for removing it was the fact that it spoilt the natural beauty of the area.
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As Emma's mum I was appalled that they could say this. Her little girl is lovely but she's a typical 2 year old with a attention span to go with it. 5 minutes digging (or even making mud pies) is all she can take. I've been up there and it's not exactly a place of beauty but it has certain quirkiness and timelessness about it as all allotments do. They are supposed to be places of community. I can remember going to my Uncles allotment with him when I was small. I could be there with Uncle Donald now when I go to Emma's. The only difference is my Uncle used to chat with the other people there, exchange crops, gossip, share a cuppa. You don't see that here. And now we know why!
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Thats unbelievable! What is the woman on?! I'd get her to show you exactly where in the rules it tells you you can't attach a swing to your bean supports. I bet she can't because it won't be there. Be nicer than nice to her and make her feel ever so important and she'll probably back down anyways. She sounds like she's on some sort of power trip. Maybe you could take the swing off while you are not there? Lots of people have permanent bean supports. She is just being a pain in the @rse.
Our twenty month old has quite a few toys at the allotment, tractors, diggers, a tipper truck and some little tools (rake, spade). He likes to fill the tipper truck with soil and transport it to another part of the allotment. Another favourite game is "swap the labels" wich is dead useful when we try and identify plants. ::) We are going to make a sand pit. If anyone makes a fuss its "for carrots". We'd like to get a swing but need to find one at the right price.
I hope this gets resolved Emma (and granny! )
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If you get no joy from legal means, you could be sneaky and disguise the swing as a fruit cage and put fleece over it when you aren't there. ;D I know you shouldn't have to do that and it would be very satisfying to openly win this cause. All these petty useless rules are just not in the spirit of allotmenteering. busy_lizzie
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They've got nothing there to support a ban on swings, so if it was me I'd refuse to move it, and go to my MP or the press if they tried to insist. They can't enforce a nonexistent rule!
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I in now way support what the council are doing bt item 10 is very vague to cover anything.
I would suggest as others that you contact your local press and your local cllr.
Also I would give the National society a ring there legal guy is very good and may be able to put you straight.
Good Luck
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Sorry to hear your hassles EmmaLou. What planet is this person on? ???Allotments are not "natural" in the way that say a woodland is, they are manmade environments with a rustic charm all their own. A small swing for your 2 yr old should in no way upset anyone. I have a 1yr old and a 4yr old. The 4yr old can do an hour at the lottie maximum, the 1yr old looks on from her buggy and cries after 15mins. They need entertaining and this women should be proud you are trying to get the family involved in a good useful pursuit! And as for not allowing sheds, well that sounds like madness to me! >:(. I see yours is owned by a town council. Unlike districts or boroughs they are usually very small with maybe only one or two staff who do everything, rather than at a district where you may get an good dedicated allotment officer who understands and has good knowledge of the subject (mine is excellent by the way and highly supportive of newbies, cheers Chris!).
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I have just received a letter about joining the Tring Allotment Association, so I think I might sign up. Hopefully they can help put my views to the council.
I might give them a link to this thread so they can see where I'm coming from!
Emma
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i have checked the link you posted and have to say i didnt see anything about not being allowed sheds - it says 'no building shall be erected' but a shed is not a building by planning law.
unless i missed a specific shed section
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I bet a youngster swinging to and fro scares a lot more pigeons than a CD does.
Get some rustic poles and a bit of strong rope, make a frame, grow some beans and put a bird deterrent in between.
Were they never young
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Get some rustic poles and a bit of strong rope, make a frame, grow some beans and put a bird deterrent in between.
robontheallotment you made me giggle! I feel much better now - amazing how good a laugh can make you feel!
Very interesting what you have to say Svea - I hadn't looked at it in that way.
i have checked the link you posted and have to say i didnt see anything about not being allowed sheds - it says 'no building shall be erected' but a shed is not a building by planning law. unless i missed a specific shed section
I am definitely going to follow all this up, but it is very scary as I don't want to become an outcast at the allotments.
Oh and just an example of how it is there... the other day as leaving my lottie, I passed a man working on his plot. As he turned and glanced I said a cheery "Hello!" to him. He looked at me as though I had been realeased from the mental institute for the day! What is this world coming to if people can't say hello to each other! I am going to make even more effort to say hi to everyone I meet - maybe it will rub off and more people will start being friendly. (Or even more people will think I am mad...but I don't care at least I am happy!) :)
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Good for you EmmaLou. Keep at it & don't stop being nice to the crochety lot.
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Keep it up Emma. You have right on your side, and just think when you win through how good you will feel. You will be striking a blow for other mothers in your position. As far as this strange man at the allotments is concerned, you just keep smiling and being friendly, his attitude is his problem. All the best to you. :) busy_lizzie
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Oh and just an example of how it is there... the other day as leaving my lottie, I passed a man working on his plot. As he turned and glanced I said a cheery "Hello!" to him. He looked at me as though I had been realeased from the mental institute for the day! What is this world coming to if people can't say hello to each other! I am going to make even more effort to say hi to everyone I meet - maybe it will rub off and more people will start being friendly. (Or even more people will think I am mad...but I don't care at least I am happy!) :)
it's not just on your site courtesy seems to have disappeared
the other day i held a door for a 'lady'
whose response was there's no need to do that
i replied
"I held the door because i am a gentleman not because you are a lady"
the look on her face was a picture.
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sympathisesay that there are no such restrictions on our allotments :( however i do sympathsise with you. i think that sheds and benches do no such thing and if you get a nice ruRustie looking bench then it adds to the beauty not takes it away from it. i cant believe that they make you carry your tools all the way! I'I'mlucky because the gate is about 3 metres from my house so i ddon'thave very far to carry them. :P
lorz
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p.s do not give up hope!!
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Good luck Emma we are all with you
Let us know the address if you want letters or emails in support
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"I held the door because i am a gentleman not because you are a lady"
Very good reply! timf
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Tim, Great reply. I for one am old fashioned and believe it is good manners to hold doors open for people etc... I am impressed if a man allows me to go first through a door still as good manners are so rare these days.
There is a real mixed bunch on our lottie too - most people totally blank you, others lecture about their personal problems for 1/2 hr at a time and stop me getting anythig done! Cannot win.
Unfortunately, it is mainly the other young people who are the rudest, I do try to say hello to people as Emma does, but they look straight through you.
Good Luck with it Emma! (and hello Emma's mum) :)
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You can bet your bottom dollar that one of the old codgers complained about the swing. What he was really complaining about was you having a child on the allotments. It's bad enough women being there ( to some of the dig for victory brigade ) without children too.
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I took my toddler to the lottie with me yesterday and he was sooooo good. He sat in his buggy and chattered away to me whilst i was working. The two old chaps who were also there were very taken with him, played with him, read his book and seemed really pleased to see him. Hopefully as he gets older he'll be more involved, growing sunflowers, cherry toms, radishes etc. I can't wait. Have yet to see if any other lottie holders object to his cheerful chatter :D
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the men on my plot are great. I take my 2 1/2 year old nephew sometimes, they give him juice and biscuits, one of them also gave me a plastic paddling pool for him in the summer. He has a great time when he is there.
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Hi Emmalou
I've just read throught the conditions. Condition 10 is the only one that they could catch you on, but only if they gave you notice either when you signed up or subsequently by pinning up notices on the site saying that there was a special condition that swings were not allowed. If you were not given notice then they don't have a leg to stand on. Nothing in those conditions saying that you have to preserve the allotment site in a state of beauty. You could always tell them that you have consulted a lawyer about this ( I'm a solicitor so it is true in a way!!)
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Yes I agree that the contract is a bit open ended when it comes to condition 10, but I would have thought that if they had any additional rules that had come up in the past they would pass them onto any new plot holders.
It would have been polite if they had given me an official letter and an explanation, but all I got was a compliment slip with the message on.
I went to the allotment today and put the swing back up (initially I had laid it on the floor after getting the note). My daughter had great fun on it. I think I might put the adult seat back on it so I can enjoy it too!
I am going to write a letter to them explaining why I am leaving it up and see where we go from there.
Thank you everyone for your views and advice - I will keep you updated.
Emma
x
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I asked if it would be possible to put a little fence around part of the plot - no this wasn't allowed either.
I have had an idea for getting around the above! I could grow cordon apples around my plot! I noticed that someone else at the allotment had done this. ;D
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Ace idea, you could grow cordon goosegobs, red & white currants & all your cane fruits as well. You could surruond yourself!
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HA! We're not even allowed a shed.........unless you've hidden it well and have had your plot for 20+years...ah well. :-\
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Ace idea, you could grow cordon goosegobs, red & white currants & all your cane fruits as well. You could surruond yourself!
And a huge wall of Jersualem Artichokes.
I take my 3 year old daughter to my allotment, and all my neighbours have been friendly and supportive towards this.
I have a swing for her, and intend to put in a sandpit, fortunatley our allotment clerk at teh council is lovely, and waives rather than enfrorces the daft rules.
I discovered some distinct advantages to allotment ownership recently; I was looking around a house that I was intending to rent, and I could tell the landlord was trying to disuade me. She clearly thought me a scummy hippy reprobate, this was until I mentioned having an allotment, suddenly her demeanour changed, and she revealed she had one also. From that point on we talked vegetables and soil and everything went rosily, we are moving in in a week, and it is much closer my allotment.
Something I particulary enjoy about allotments is standing around with my neighbours and talking: old timers, hippies, immigrants, wealthy, poor all talking; people that would often not, in normal life, interact. It's a pity that not everyone on your allotment is on mine.
I wish you luck, and stand firm..
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EmmaLou , firstly , keep on fighting the good fight !
Secondly , a possible solution to a couple of your problems could be to build a large chest type storage box in which to keep your tools, a couple of folding chairs, some toys for the lilttle 'un (a raspberry blower for the neighbours ?) etc.
Also, you could build a raised bed at bum-sitting height and put a plank of wood along one edge, voila ! a bench, and lill'un would have a junior level little lottie to potter about in in bliss {:¬)#
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Wondering when a vertical storage area becomes a shed ....hmmmm
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wardy, was just playing with the idea, would call it an enclosed, lockable tool rack if I had somebody like that to deal with on my Council. {:¬)#
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Can't believe that woman Emma - how dare she ask why your daughter's not in nursery! (blooming cheek) and ditto what everyone else says about kids on allotments - I often go with my 3 year old nephew, the older he gets the more into it he is, he got upset yesterday when we only had an hour, he "want to do some more work!" next year we're going to make him his own raised bed and he's already said that he wants to grow "blue carrots" (hmm not sure if dobies do them?) - all the other allotment people are very friendly and make a fuss of him, everyone has said how nice it is to see young people up there and I love it that there's such a good mix of generations.
anyway, your council will have a formal complaints procedure that you can go through, it maybe that this woman is just in the wrong job and her boss will put her straight, how can anyone in their right minds object. and getting on the allotment association is also a good idea, bet you're not the only one who wants to make it a more sociable place.
good luck!
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not even been aloud a shed, i wouldnt be able to continue with my lottie without mine. It was the first thing i put up there, came out my back garden (now have gapeing hole) in it i keep, ALL bob the builder trucks, large digger, folding slide, small unfoldable chairs, childs plastic wheelbarrow & tools, very large tunnel & tent, all donated by friends.
oh yer and a spade!
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People who are not allowed sheds sink hole etc and put a door on a call it a shed.
That sounds like a good idea! Not sure I fancy digging a big hole! :o
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yoou could always remain silent about its purpose when someone asks you. just wiggle with your eyebrows and look ominous
;D
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Not really sure how they knew about the swing - maybe they do a check of the whole site just before the rents are due in. I do know that the town warden has a plot there... maybe it was the guy who didn't say hello to me? Who knows? - I'm not really about to blame anyone. All I know is I obviously can't get away with stuff without the big bosses finding out. I just wish I knew for definite what things I can't do at my allotment. It would make life for everyone easier!
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I can't believe how ridiculous the whole shed swing thing is - how else are you to encourage children to enjoy gardening and being in the open. My kids are often down at the plot with me, and have their own beds (Which they have apparently just started digging!), and as long as they stick to the big paths around the site they are welcomed - You should copy all of the comments in the forum and send them to her!!
good luck in your battle
Emma K
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Have new shed plan with lottie neighbour...we have a large crab apple tree (huge thing surrounding residents demand it stays - hurrah) and we shall hide our shed within it...plans afoot to install gradually under cover of darkness and 'quiet' frost ridden months.... Never knew having an allotment would be so filled with derring do and illicit shenanigans...
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I was rather taken aback the other day to find that we have a similar problem. The very pleasant couple on the plot next to ours put up a small shed a couple of months ago. I rather liked the look of it, since although it was quite tiny, it had an extended roof just big enough for two people to sit and have a mug of tea during a rain shower.
I thought I might do something similar.
But in the last couple of weeks the shed has been torn down. I haven’t seen our neighbouring lottie holders, but one of the “old brigade” gave me the story. Apparently a bad-tempered gent in one of the houses opposite the allotments constantly writes letters of complaint to the council. He’s not an allotment holder himself, of course, and is just a whinger. He had complained about the shed until eventually the council asked for it to be removed.
Even worse, one of the allotment holders had been told to remove a cold frame that he’d made out of old windows! The same guy had complained and complained about its unsightliness until the council got fed up with him and gave in.
I think I might have a little word, and maybe tell a bit of a porkie. I think that I’ll be very sympathetic, and say that although I enjoy my allotment, I support the council’s decision to change the usage of the land. After all, it’s very wrong that gypsies have nowhere to live, and they deserve a nice site like this. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Like it ;D
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I assume the allotment was there before his house?! most have been around for years and years haven't they?
why buy a house next to an allotment and then whinge about there being an allotment next door!! DOH!!
Ours has a house over looking it. I can see right into their kitchen and their back door is about 1m from the fence. I cannot decide whether I should attempt to be friendly, they have always totally blanked me.
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Colleen
When you say you'll hide the shed within, are you talking about a tree house shed? That would drive the local council mad.
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I support the council’s decision to change the usage of the land. After all, it’s very wrong that gypsies have nowhere to live, and they deserve a nice site like this. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Lol ;D
One of the houses opposite our allotments has a really scruffy garden - really brings down to the tone of the place. Think I might go and complain to the council until they sort it out! (Did I sound convincing? ;D lol)
After mentioning your problem Melbourne12, I now think that maybe that is why the council basically say my swing is ugly - they've probably had loads of complaints from the houses opposite. Hmm?
I wonder how they would feel if the Council sold the land and allowed a load of garish overpriced modern flats to be put opposite their houses, which seems to be the thing happening around here at the moment? We already lost another allotment site to a housing estate.
I would love to live opposite the allotments and I wouldn't care what was on them - I think it is fantastic how people manage to recycle the most strangest things to use on their lotties. At least the stuff isn't going into land fills.
I'm sure these people are jealous of our beautiful plots!
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The residents near our plots campaigned and got a no fires during daylight rule but they can and do have fires whenever they want.
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If local residents are making trouble like that the answer is to beeven more obstreperous than they are. Contact the local rag, councillors, your MP, anyone you can think of. If you can cause enough embarassment, they'll back off.
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Update
Hi guys!
Had a great time at the allotment yesterday. Firstly I managed to complete digging another bed - think I got most of the couch grass out. (funny - just reminded me of the dream I had last night...didn't matter how deep I dug, the couch grass roots were still there! ???)
Secondly - the man who looked at me funny when I said hello other week, came over to me whilst I was working. Me being paranoid thought I was going to get moaned at, but was nicely surprised when he offered me a load of strawberry runners! Maybe I caught him off guard last time we met? Anyway he was a very nice man.
Thirdly - another man at the allotment started chatting to me...I was trying to dig up some rhubarb at the time and he told me a story of why most of the plots have the rhubarb growing in the same place. Apparently the Rothschild's who gave the field to the poor people, only let them have the plots on the condition that they grew rhubarb as it was very nutritional - hence we still have loads of it! Also I never realised that rhubarb had such long tap roots! He said some of them are 2ft! He also kindly gave me some horse radish and jerusalem artichokes.
I am so glad I spoke to him - turns out he works at the Council office and is on the allotment committee. He updated me on what was going on, which included the news that we are hopefully going to get a toilet installed at the site! :) He also explained to me that there was a law set by the County Council saying that we couldn't have anything on the allotments over, now I think he said 30cm or 30inches? That was one of the reasons for me not being allowed the swing. But he also said not to worry too much about the swing as he wants to encourage children at the site. They have also appointed a lady onto the committee who has children. That is great news! He gave me loads of other advice and info! I have told him about this forum, so hopefully we will be welcoming him to it in the near future.
Maybe they should have welcoming meetings for new plot holders, so that they can pass on any information like the above. I have found that I can go weeks without actually seeing anyone at the allotment, so miss out on any info like this. Also I didn't get a newsletter until the yearly rent was due, meaning it took nearly 4 months for any info whatsoever! Maybe I will put this to the committee?
Anyway - I now feel a lot more confident that things will improve at our site!
Thank you everyone for your wise words and support!
Emma
:-*
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WooHoo ! GREAT news Emma, long live perseverance ! {:¬)#
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For the last 7 years that I have had an allotment in Elton I have been told I wasn't allowed a shed due to Shell having pipes running underground across the site. Bare in mind that this is from the couple who 'run' the allotment and have the only key to the 'communal' shed (despite numerous requests for a key from every other lottie owner)
A few weeks ago I took the matter into my own hands and eventually, via many people, got to talk to 'THE GUY' who oversees all underground fuel pipes. He came and looked at the site and showed me the lie of the pipe, which took up a thousandth of the field and said as long as we don't put a shed directly over the pipe we can have whatever we like!
Haven't managed to tell anyone else yet but I can't believe that all along we could have had a shed.
One 89 year old pushes his wheelbarrow half a mile with all his tools in it including a rotavat or to get to his lottie.
All I need now is a cheap shed ;D
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*Punches the air * LOTTIES UNITE ! {:¬)#
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It sounds as though you need to get together with people from other sites, and try to get that silly rule reversed. If you can't have anything over 30 whatsits, then presumably you can't have beanpoles either! Talk about stupid.
Ani, you're not the only one who's come across idiots running allotment sites for a power trip. Do you have an Association? If so, I assume they control it. Os there any way of getting them voted off the committee? We got rid of a major troublemaker when someone stood up at the AGM and insisted on standing against her. She'd been there for twenty-odd years, there had never been a contested election, but she sank without trace as soon as people had the choice.
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Great news Emma ;D
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That's great Emma. All this positive news is due to your persitence. Well done! :D busy_lizzie
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At the risk of putting my head above the parapet and getting shot down.... I have to say that I totally agree with the local council albeit I do not agree with the way in which it was handled.
My plot is on an insecure site ie it has a public footpath through the centre of the plot and therefore is open to anyone. We are fortunate and do not have many problems relating to this. We are overlooked on 3 sides by houses.
I have a young family just 2 plots away from me and those children are allowed to roam exactly where they like when they like. I am sick and tired of asking the parents to keep the children under control. If families were allowed to install swings on their sites where would it stop? Whilst I can understand the problem being discussed relates to one particular plot, the council has to look at sites as a whole. If every family wanted something similar it would turn into a playground. Allotments are not safe places for children to play. What would happen if the child fell off the swing? It could potentially leave the local council open to litigation.
I am afraid I come from the old school that does not believe that children should be on an allotment unless they are interested in gardening. Where I am there are several families who have children as young as two who quite happily dig and plant. They pose no problems whatsoever. I personally go to my allotment for peace and quiet I do not want hoards of children playing. My site is for purest allotmenteers and I would suggest that if children want to play they are taken to a proper playground.
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Great news Emma - am really pleased for you ;D
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I am afraid I come from the old school that does not believe that children should be on an allotment unless they are interested in gardening. Where I am there are several families who have children as young as two who quite happily dig and plant. They pose no problems whatsoever. I personally go to my allotment for peace and quiet I do not want hoards of children playing. My site is for purest allotmenteers and I would suggest that if children want to play they are taken to a proper playground.
So are you saying that people that have young children are not allowed the luxury of an allotment, purely for the fact that their children are not yet interested in gardening? Unfortunately I do not have the funds to give the responsibility of bringing up my child to someone else - and I would not wish to either! So she will always be with me when I visit my plot and will hopefully grow to love gardening as much as I do. I want her to know where her food comes from and not be like a lot of children these days who think that food magically appears on a shop shelf!
The problem family at your site is most definitely a minority as I am sure most conscientious people would do their best to amuse their children by putting up a swing for example. Maybe you could offer to show these children the stuff growing on your plot and point out the safety issues to them in a polite way? As a child I was allowed to roam where I liked at my granddads small holding, but I was always made aware of the dangers. I never got hurt...except the time a chicken pecked me! lol
I do hope that you will come to accept that people from all walks of life should be just as welcome on the allotments. I do believe we all have something to offer.
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We have a couple of people with young kids, and they roam all round the site without ever being a nuisance to anyone. As far as I'm concerned, we should be encouraging kids, and if there's a problem with an odd family, that should be treated as a family problem not a child problem. I just wish I could get my kids down on the plot!
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BB I am sorry you feel that children should be segregated from allotments. Where do you think that the gardeners/allomenteers of the future will come from if you don't encourage them to find out about growing things? This applies especially with veggies, as nowadays with prepackaged stuff, children sometimes have no idea where things come from. I agree children should not be allowed to run riot but that is a different thing altogether.
Allotments aren't private clubs but should be open for all to experience, especially families, in my opinion. I have no axe to grind my children are all grown up now, but I am always pleased to see the littleuns on the site. I met a new plot holder last week who brought her two boys 8 and 10 to the Site, and they were given a little square each from her plot to cultivate vegetables on. I think this is great and the way to go. busy_lizzie
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When we took on our allotment one of the first things I asked was if children were allowed.Not only are they allowed ,they are positively welcomed on our site.My little ones are 8 and 10 and already know the rules of 'no running' and 'keep to the paths'.Last week they were having a great time weeding with us and they had a little picnic in between the showers.My children behave well at the allotment and I'm sure most children will if they are enjoying themselves and well occupied.They are looking forward to the site barbecue and bonfire on the 5th November.
Lets not forget, we were all children once!
Best Wishes Sue
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That's very good news EmmaLou. I must say that I was a bit surprised when you thought the other allotment holders were stand-offish. We've got very few who won't stop for a chat, and I suspect that's because they're shy rather than hostile.
And there are certainly quite a few families with children who have plots on our site. The kids are all well-behaved, and those of an age to do so seem to love to help with planting and even weeding and digging.
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As I suspected, I am the only one with the opposite point of view. As a child I was always encouraged to grow plants and show an interest in the natural world. I was allowed to roam, but I was taught to respect other people's property. However, as a general rule, children today are not. Now I am not suggesting for one minute that your child is allowed to roam wild. However, with a swing on your plot if other children were to roam and injure themselves, especially while you are not there, both the Council and you would be liable. This is why council's tend to rule out such equipment.
I do not wish to ban children from allotments, exactly the opposite, I think they should be encouraged to grow their own food. I thought the programme by Jamie Oliver where children could not identify a stick of rhubarb was absolutely shocking and a very sad reflection on today's children.
However, due to the very society we live it is not how your own children behave but very much how other's do. Council's cannot take the risk unfortunately. Is there anyway of finding some sort of equipment you could take home with you each time?
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Bath_Bun...I agree that children shouldn't be allowed to "roam wild" and shouldn't go onto other plots without being invited. It is the responsibility of the guardians/parents to ensure the child's safety when they bring them to the allotments. If my child wondered onto someone else's plot and injured herself, it would be my fault for allowing her wonder off.
I am sure in time I will not need the swing to amuse her, but at the moment it is all I can do. I do also bring other things to amuse her, but unfortunately at the age of 2 she has an attention span of about 5 minutes. Finding equipment that I could take home each time would be near impossible as it is a struggle getting my daughter and all my tools to my plot as it is!
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My four year old is still telling everybody how she helped Daddy dig potatoes - and she wants to know if every potato she eats is one of hers. She is now four and still has a short attention span - luckily, usually when I am up there, there is someone at home or with me who can take her home when she gets bored. Not everyone has that luxury and I for one would not like to exclude anybody who doesn't. Especially as people with children should be encouraged to grow them fresh veg. An allotment is not just a place for older, (now) childless people to potter around on growing more than they need and letting most of it rot. If it is, when they die, lottying will die with them.
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Just going back to an earlier post on this thread - why on earth would people find allotments unsightly? I don't think our site is particularly unusual - you can watch the seasons change, the wildlife go about its business and enjoy the greenery and the quirky constructions. The average street in my area is nowhere near as attractive, given the general litter, graffiti and built-upedness (sorry, not a word, I know ;D). I would love to look out of my window onto an allotment (preferably my own, of course ;D)
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Hi Bath Bun
I think the basis of your position, that most 'kids today' are disrespectful and ignorant almost automatically defeats any point in responding. I'd simply suggest that this comes across as an attitude based on fear rather than experience.
I also strongly believe that the upsurge in interest in allotmenting by young parents (and their children) is a hugely optimistic trend.
Perhaps in a moral sense they don't have to justify their presence on the allotments to you, but vice versa?
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Amen
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Certainly a hot topic. Emma Lou, would you be able to install a sand pit? we have a cheap wooden one from B&Q on our plot and junior loves it. it has a rain proof cover so we can keep small toys in there permanently. As for your littl'un, i know you have to have eyes in the back of your head, but on taking on a second plot this month, i took junior by the hand, showed him the boundaries, explained how important it was not to go outside the boundaries without permission. showed him the gooseberry bushes, told him what they were and what we do with the fruit, but also explained that they are very spikey, showed him the thorns, and told him to be careful whilst playing around them. i basically spent an hour spelling out the 'rules of the plot'. he seemed to understand, and has certainly stuck to the rules. sometimes its easy to forget that toddlers need every detail explaining to them (repeatedly, cos they do forget). and when he is naughty, we have a naughty chair! the other plot holders love him being around, and ask about him when he's not there. i don't think he has upset anyone, including the allotment neighbour he asked if he was a scarecrow!!!
hope this helps!
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I would keep the swing on your allottment. Plant some nice things around it to make it look 'attractive'.
Contact you local Town Councillor if you are still getting hastle from the Town Clerk and ask them for their viewpoint.
There may be a reasonable planning ground on which such structures are banned, a complaint may have been recieved from another plot holder or the Town Clerk was just being over zealous.
Hopefully your local Councillor can ensure that reasonable discretion is followed in this issue.
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Certainly a hot topic. Emma Lou, would you be able to install a sand pit? we have a cheap wooden one from B&Q on our plot and junior loves it. it has a rain proof cover so we can keep small toys in there permanently. As for your littl'un, i know you have to have eyes in the back of your head, but on taking on a second plot this month, i took junior by the hand, showed him the boundaries, explained how important it was not to go outside the boundaries without permission. showed him the gooseberry bushes, told him what they were and what we do with the fruit, but also explained that they are very spikey, showed him the thorns, and told him to be careful whilst playing around them. i basically spent an hour spelling out the 'rules of the plot'. he seemed to understand, and has certainly stuck to the rules. sometimes its easy to forget that toddlers need every detail explaining to them (repeatedly, cos they do forget). and when he is naughty, we have a naughty chair! the other plot holders love him being around, and ask about him when he's not there. i don't think he has upset anyone, including the allotment neighbour he asked if he was a scarecrow!!!
hope this helps!
Sounds like an effective strategy fbgrifter. Toddlers like to know the rules, I think it helps them feel in control of what they are doing, and gives them confidence. They seem to love to help, and to be involved in the gardening. In the summer I overdid the praise when cameron was doing some weeding. The next thing I knew he had half the courgettes up! He was ever so proud, thought he had nabbed the biggest weeds on the plot. I tried to explain the difference between weeds and plants, but its a difficult concept for a (then) 18 month old to grasp. His hoeing has been supervised closely since then!
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i had the same prblem C&B, now all that can be heard on our plot is, " mummy, is this a weed? is this a weed? is this a weed? (cont. ad infinitum!)"
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My neighbouring lottie holder has his plot as an extention of his garden. There are high privet hedges dividing each plot so we are not troubled when his grandchildren are playing in the lottie/garden. All we can here is the laughter of children playing. Which, for me, is far better than them playing on the streets and getting up to mischief. I think children should be encouraged on allotments, but not allowed to roam around. For others it is a haven of peace and tranquility.
Lily
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Well done EmmaLou - sounds like your perseverance has paid off :)
I took my 14 month old to my lotty today and he helped me plant some tulip bulbs - i was sooooo thrilled. I dug the holes and after he saw me drop one or two bulbs into holes he soon got the idea and joined in with gusto ;D
He's still very young to understand a lot but i always tell him he's to wait for me before walking anywhere on site and that we only walk on paths, also that he must NEVER eat anything unless i give it to him. Hopefully starting as we mean to go on will mean he soon gets to grips with lotty life.
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No-one has to justify their existence on an allotment to me, but I am basing my views on experience both past and existing. If a child not on their own family's allotment falls onto a cold frame, greenhouse, swing, etc and injures themself the Council can be held responsible. They are responsible for ensuring safety in general. Likewise my view on children on allotments is based on experience. Most hate being there/have a short attention span and they wander around causing problems. Councils do not single out individuals in my experience they are protecting their position as a whole (rightly or wrongly). I have a family with children a couple of plots from my who clearly are bored and are allowed to roam around over other peoples plots. They show no respect for the hard work put in by other people. If Councils get complaints in this respect they will devise a set of rules to cover everyone. This I would imagine is what has happened in the original case. Unfortunately what are probably the minority ruin it for the majority as always. I have friends who work for the local Council and have told me of some crazy claims which have been submitted against the Council and have won. Likewise, if a child/person were to injure themselves on your swing they would be able to sue both you and the Council. Personally I believe that in this case if someone was on your allotment without permission and injured themselves it would be tough luck but unfortunately this is not the way the system works in this country these days.
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Tree house shed not a good idea....but could chain myself to it if they tried to destroy it.....no, just hidden....maybe troglodite? :P
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OKas long as the plot doesn't get waterlogged. Someone tried to put an Anderson shelter (partly underground) on my plot during the war, and it got hopelessly flooded. When I was doing the stream bank I found some rusty bits of incredibly thick corrugated iron which I was told were used to build the things.
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That's great news EmmaLou. Kids are the future of allotments and have to be encouraged.
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I think that children should be allowed to go on to allotments, its no good saying that the kids today do not want to learn anything like we used to do or help out like we used to do (or have to), and then stopping them coming on allotments they are ,are future and should be encouraged.