Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => The Basics => Topic started by: londonfarming on June 29, 2005, 13:24:57
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first time on this site.i would like to now first how many of you are : growing with out used of chemicals or tape water.
let it put it another way. who think would be able to get an soil assiossiation certificat. i pick this one just to make it easier.
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Hello londonfarming - welcome aboard A4A.
Have to confess to using Roundup to clear the lottie and running the tap for water when necessary.
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Hi Londonfarming and welcome to the Board. I have had an allotment for three years now and a kitchen garden long before that and have never used any chemicals of any sort on my crops and don't use artificial fertilisers but do use our own compost and cow manure which is not organic. Like we have said before on this site it is difficult to say you are totally organic because although I have two water butts we do use the water from the lottie taps too. Our plot is also at the bottom of a sloping aisle of plots so we probably get stuff draining into ours which I would prefer not to have, though can't avoid.
We have cleared the usual sort of pernicious weeds from our plot, like couch grass, thistles, bindweed, marestails and bramble bushes by good old fashioned digging. The marestails we just keep at bay by pulling out when we see it. As you see it is a bit of a complicated answer but we just do as much as we can to be green. Hope we see you here again on a4aand hope that answer was helpful. :) busy_lizzie
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Yep - we are organic and most around us are too. Do get water but this is through an underground natural water source. Clearing still in progress by digging and weeding and the only things that go on compost are organic too. ;D Wasn't really a concious choice but came very naturally really - once I started growing I realised I didn't want to put anything chemical down as it was eventually going to make it's way into us.
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Can't say I garden organically, but I try to be as natural as I can. Don't use weedkillers or chemical sprays, more through ignorance of their long term effects. However, am using bordeaux on my tomatos, otherwise the crop is a wipe out! Also do use slugpellets, which I loathe doing, but after loosing my kohl rabi plants 4 times, it was a last resort. I only use those in spring when plants are babies. Tap water, well our site doesn't have piped water so stream water or rain water most of the time, altho I do try hard not to water at all. However, our allotment neighbour kindly lets us use her hose on occassion to give our beds a good soaking and fill our waterbutts, if we didn't, this time of the year, nothing would germinate!
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same as others really. don't use sprays on anything at the lottie - tried some Roundup earlier in the year on uncultivated bit but not impressed with the results so probably won't bother again. I do use tap water (didn't realise this was not considered organic) though. I must admit that with regard to ornamentals in the garden at home that I will use mould spray if necessary and I am rapidly reaching the get the slug pellets stage as fed up of seedlings disappearing overnight and useless organic methods of deterring them!
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using as natural methods as poss, but i have used soap spray on aphids (HDRA approved).
i am trying companion planting as much as poss. i do use slug pellets, too.
watering mainly from a water butt, as rarely as poss, but have in the last two weeks resorted to water from tap as needed to drench the whole plot once or twice (huge abysses opening up in my clay :()
there you have it :)
svea
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..... am using bordeaux .....
EJ, the HDRA gives Bordeaux Qualified Aprroval - ie you can use if it is not part of your normal routine
LF,
Welcome aboard, I claim to be organic but I wouldn't see the use of tap water, when no other, is available as being non-organic
Phil
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I'm organic but I use tap water at the moment because I am in my first year and do not have a shed or water butts yet. However, I do not water much as I do believe that if plants have to search for water to a certain extent - it makes them stronger. Even when I do get a shed/water butts though I will still resort to the tap when they are empty and the plants really need it. Do not think this disqualifies me.
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Try to be organic as possible - and after only having lottie for a month, this means weeding by hand ::) marestail, dandelions etc! Have covered a lot of plot with weed suppressant to hopefully clear some of the weeds. We have onsite water from both taps and rainwater so we use both.
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Tap water on lettuce (don't trust the ditch water for that), slug pellets and manure. Soap water against aphids and milk water against mildew. Lots of sweat and elbow grease against weeds.
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3 years organic: 2005 vegan organic.
Welcome. It's very nice here unless you mention cats!
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;D Do you like Fishing? ;D
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I'm as organic as I can manage to be but I admit to using tapwater. Definitely no chemicals though.
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Again same as the rest - part of the enjoyment of the lottie is knowing that chemicals haven't been used (don't forget even organic farmers have access to some treatments!). I do use derris dust (blooming flea beetles) and slug pellets early season after losing all my carrots. Tap water generally used as the tap is right next to my plot with a hose fitting readily available.
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London, may i suggest a poll?
I cant say im very organic as i use slug pellets and lots of black plastic. Organic is a nice idea but very hard to acheive with the factors that affect growing nowadays. As with everything theres a happy medium which i am trying to strike
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Was Organic for 7 years, then the slug population increased on my plot 100 fold!! So for the first time ever I am using 1/2 chemical slug pellets when starting susceptible plants. :-[ :-[ :-[ it really go's against my principles, but we need to eat something off the plot this year!
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How about you London, are u organic?
Welcome to A4A :)
Personally I use Derris, and have recently sprayed the very overgrown plot next door with roundup to beat it back!
No sprays on my own plot though.
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How about you London, are u organic?
Welcome to A4A :)
im,i cannot waste,or kill.
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3 years organic: 2005 vegan organic.
A state I hope to be in one day!
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3 years organic: 2005 vegan organic.
Welcome. It's very nice here unless you mention cats!
Hah hah, this made me laugh! It's true though.
Can anyone answer Roy?
;D Do you like Fishing? ;D
I am seriously fed up, fed up I tell you with my Japanese wife with the naggady nag about me eating meat. I mean, come on. Since F+M disease, bse,vcjd et al I have reduced my red meat input by at least 99%. So I do like my chicken. I do. And a bit of pork. But I mean to say, this from the country that hunts the whale for "research" purposes. Hmmm, I dunno. Live and let live (though not the animals we eat, I acknowledge my twofacedness!)
London, may i suggest a poll?
There was a poll recently. I will edit it in the link later
regards,
Ciaran
The edited bit
http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/yabbse/index.php/topic,8167.0.html
In the Pests, Diseases and Disorders thread.
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Derris also has Qualified Acceptance from the HDRA.
Phil
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I am what I conider organic. I will use Bordeaux if necessary, otherwise it's soft soap or rhubarb tea. I also use Cornish calcified seaweed even though calcified seaweed is now a no-no. The difference is that whilst calcified seaweed normally destroys habitat, the cornish one is harvested ahead of the planned dredging which would destroy habitat anyway. People have their own reasons for gardening 'organically', from the basic of not wanting herbicides, fungicides and pesticides in their food, right through to concern for the global environment. When i attend meetings of our local organic society, it seems almost competitive - " Oh I'm even more organic than that!" etc. My main concern is the food I eat, so my decisions aren't based on the future of the land snail in Paraguay but rather more parochially. I therefore am happy to use Roundup on our car park but not on my allotment.
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almost organic.
I don't use any chemicals at all - use only organic plant feeds and hand weed and ignore most pests! I don't use peat. I collect the water from the tap that's cold when you're running the hot tap and use that on the garden and I have a waterbutt. That lasts until mid-spring, then I have to start using tap water (although I don't have a hose, so am very careful about how much I use!)
I try to get a balance with nature. I don't like killing things so left the wooly aphids on my apple tree and the black fly on my broadies. Ladybirds have eaten most of them now!
In fact since I started gardening (seriously three years ago, after about two or three years of pottering) I haven't used any chemicals. It's my philosophy that I live in balance with nature, so this extends beyond just the garden.
This year I've stopped using many harmful household products and everything is recycled or reused. And I don't have a car. Oh and I've been a veggie for 16 years. Next step - veganism. maybe.
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I have found trying to be totally organic on a lotty is not possible ..
We cant tell neighbours each side of us how to garden as in sprays etc...
I need horse muck etc on my plots I cant tell If the horses have recently been wormed prior to me getting my muck or if they have had any antibiotics etc...
I tried an experiment last year with 2 rows of sprouts .Spraying one and hand picking bugs off the other.Despite living only about 20 yards off my lotties and visiting every day the row I had not sprayed was eaten and in a right mess.
I think its going a bit far not using tap water < I would have hardly anything growing at all this year without it.
So I use roundup slug pellets and spray my brassicas once a season with bug clear ..
At least this way i usually have some sort of fresh veg and plenty of tatties and onions to see us through at least 9 months of the year..
The freezer sees to the other 3 months .
The alternative would be supermarket veggies and who knows how many times they have been sprayed and irradiated etc ..Despite how they look all uniform in size etc..
I ain't going to work 3 lotties and hope I gets some stuff on the table.
I am having a fighting chance of getting some.
In principal and in theory total organic sounds ideal but I have found it is different in practice..
But each to his own and for those of you that are trying it I hope you succeed...cheers Jim.
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Not really. We are to organic horticulture what people eating fish and chicken are vegetarianism.
Basically we use a bit of inorganic fertiliser (tomato feed / Growmore) and the odd slug pellet (they're not my choice!) but no herbicides, insecticides or fungicides. Reluctantly we may try Derris next year as flea beetle seems to be everywhere. Oh, and I've just remembered I sprayed with aspirin a couple of weeks ago...
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At the moment I haven't been using tap water because I don't have a hose- dont keep any tools or anything at the lottie because the shed I inheried has fallen over!
Just use what's in the butts on the plot but I do water seedlings with tap water at home before they go out - what is the argument against tap water? Is it to do with flouridation or heavy metal traces or something? haven't come across this debate before.
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what is the argument against tap water? Is it to do with flouridation or heavy metal traces or something? haven't come across this debate before.
its a moral issue for organic grower. we hope to have a debat on the subject,espesialy,on these time of drought.
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I have tried to be mostly organic. I've avoided peat composts, and pesticides. Have used nettle feed and have obtained some comfrey plants, but still bought some tomato feed for what is in pots/growbags at home. No herbicides, and up till today no pesticides, but gave in and brought some slug pellets today, cos all young seedlings keep getting munched >:(. Will try to be more organised next year with the organic slug deterrents/killers, but it has been heartbreaking to have everything munched so going for the easy option for now.
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its a moral issue for organic grower. we hope to have a debat on the subject,espesialy,on these time of drought.
So its more to do with water wastage and growing drought resistant plants?
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Ooo, so the bordeaux and derris I use shouldn't make me feel as guilty as it does! Hoorah ;D
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its a moral issue for organic grower. we hope to have a debat on the subject,espesialy,on these time of drought.
So its more to do with water wastage and growing drought resistant plants?
yes. can you explain why?
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Ooo, so the bordeaux and derris I use shouldn't make me feel as guilty as it does! Hoorah ;D
if it allowed with the soil assoiciation, its good enought for us ,we choice the soil assiociation,because we thought was the most know organic group in uk.if you know of any other group let me know.im just interested in founding a base for small organic grower like us. We are far more "extreme" than the soil assiociation Living in london we had to make some compromise
in order to obtain an organic certificat. its a long story. tape water ,was one of them,and right to be.
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.....we choice the soil assiociation,because we thought was the most know organic group in uk......
LF,
The SA is effectively a trade organisation which provides UK certification for commercial growers, it has a few thousand members
The Henry Doubleday Research Association (started with the assistance of a grant from the SA) is the organisation for amateur growers (over 30,000) - it also does work with assisting growers around the world, mainly subsistance farmers.
It publishes a set of guidelines, as it is for amateurs, as opposed to rules and regulatiuons which are necessary as "Organic" has a legal meaning when applied to prodcue for sale.
The HDRA has loads of information on its website (lots more if you're a member) at www.hdra.org.uk (http://www.hdra.org.uk) It also has local groups (not all of which are full of "I'm more organic than you" members), several in London - clck on "Local Groups" near the top left hand corner of their home page.
Phil
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.....we choice the soil assiociation,because we thought was the most know organic group in uk......
LF,
The SA is effectively a trade organisation which provides UK certification for commercial growers, it has a few thousand members
The Henry Doubleday Research Association (started with the assistance of a grant from the SA) is the organisation for amateur growers (over 30,000) - it also does work with assisting growers around the world, mainly subsistance farmers.
It publishes a set of guidelines, as it is for amateurs, as opposed to rules and regulatiuons which are necessary as "Organic" has a legal meaning when applied to prodcue for sale.
The HDRA has loads of information on its website (lots more if you're a member) at www.hdra.org.uk (http://www.hdra.org.uk) It also has local groups (not all of which are full of "I'm more organic than you" members), several in London - clck on "Local Groups" near the top left hand corner of their home page.
Phil
thank you, i choiced the soil assiociation because its seem to be well know from the public in general.i think a veg growth in london with an soil assiociation label,would go well.Ill have a look at your info thank you again
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The HDRA has loads of information on its website (lots more if you're a member) at www.hdra.org.uk (http://www.hdra.org.uk) It also has local groups (not all of which are full of "I'm more organic than you" members), several in London - clck on "Local Groups" near the top left hand corner of their home page
i try no luck so far,
im myself doing some research,about growing extrem organic, that why im interested in grower who dont use tape water.
Phil
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yes. can you explain why?
Ummmmmm..... is it about a totally natural way of growing food, working only with the natural resources availible? Or a stand against the wasteful use of water? I'm not sure, hence the questions, could you explain your position fully please? ;D Also, to what extent do you think air pollution in London affect the quality and purity of the rain water?
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Soil Association are NOT the best choice I would say and even more so for a small grower. The SA in my view are far more interested in politics and legalities than practicalities and encouraging organic growing. As a result a lot of people myself included kicked them out for alternative accreditation.
Londonfarmer, can I recommend that you try either Organic Farmers & Growers or the Organic Food Federation. Both wold be very willing to help and advise you.
Iain
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yes. can you explain why?
Ummmmmm..... is it about a totally natural way of growing food, working only with the natural resources availible? Or a stand against the wasteful use of water?
its both of them
;D Also, to what extent do you think air pollution in London affect the quality and purity of the rain water?
we dont have the choice, we have to eat what we growth where we are.
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Soil Association are NOT the best choice I would say and even more so for a small grower. ....
Iain
Although I am a member of the SA (and HDRA), I agree with you. The SA, as I said, is a trade association - so getting "their label" as you put it LF, is a non-trivial exercise which will cost lots of time and money and is only cost effective if you intend to make a living from your organic produce.
Phil
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Hmm interesting stuff. Its my 1st year with the plot and i intended being organic, keep chckens to use poo as fertiliser, don't use slug pellits, no weedkiller just digging and handballing them out and i was hoping no pest sprays. At the weekend 50+ cabbages were covered with cloudy aphid it was either treat with pest spray or chuck em. I decided to spray and feel a bit gutted but at least i'll be eating cabbage from the allotment. Next year i'll cover with fleece hoping to prevent it.
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Hi all,
I'm trying to be totally organic.I'm trying to attract beneficial insects and predators so I'm giving the slug pellets a miss.
I have to admit that slugs are about the biggest pest that I encounter on my allotment.
I think It was gavin that mentioned about "sacrificials".I'm trying to use this policy at the moment.So,the slugs can have some,so long as they leave some for me.
I'm also trying to grow varieties that the slugs aren't too keen on.
So far,my favourite slug resistant varieties are:-Lettuces-Marvel Of The Four Seasons,Lobjoits Green Cos,Lollo Rossa.
Potatoes-Sharpe's Express,Concorde,Red Duke Of York.
If anyone knows of any other relatively slug resistant vegetables,I would love to hear about them.
Although I'm trying to be organic,I think that It's up to each individual to do whatever suits them.
All The Best-Marky. :)
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Within the boundaries of permitted stuff of course, otherwise people would still be using DDT. After all, we do share the environment.
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Quite right Ina,
I think you should just follow your conscience.
All The Best-Marky :)
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...... At the weekend 50+ cabbages were covered with cloudy aphid it was either treat with pest spray or chuck em. I decided to spray and feel a bit gutted but at least i'll be eating cabbage from the allotment........
NL,
If you give the aphids a good hard spray of soap solution (not detergent - soap flakes, 2oz to 2galls of water), followed by another 30 mins later that will see em off and it doesn't get chemicals into the plant
Phil
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that will see em off and it doesn't get chemicals into the plant
...or your tap water...
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I think it all comes down to why you want to grow your own veg. If it is to make sure that there aren't any nasties on your food then go organic but if that was my reason I would not put anything at all on the crops, no bordeaux, derris or even soap - how many chemicals are in that?! I have been eating non organic foods for 34 years so full of chemicals anyway. The other reason may be to do with freshness and the ethics of not shipping food halfway round the world before it is eaten.
I think on balance it is the freshness, combined with the exercise it gives me closely followed by chemicals. Therefore if needs must I will spray (touch wood not needed to do anything yet) but I will certainly not stop using tap water!
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bordeaux, derris or even soap - how many chemicals are in that?!
I think they are allowable under organic standards, with discretion, because the chemicals they contain don't persist in the environment...
I think the benefits you mention of freshness in your crops & exercise are a bit meaningless if you don't have a safe, clean environment... Different ends of the same stick, so to speak...
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probably didn't make myself clear - I personally don't use any sprays on my food crops however not using chemicals is not everyones main reason for growing their own. (I think that double negative works! :))
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) but I will certainly not stop using tap water!
so what will happenned if the water bill goes up the roof?would you stop growing?or will you pay the bill.?
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Phil, the leaves were absolutely covered with aphids, on the outer leaves you could see more aphids then leaf. Would soap still have worked?
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Soap, rhubarb tea. anything which kills insects. They're quite vulnerable, and I've killed loads with detergent sprays, before I realised that the tits would get them without my assistance.
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Northener,
The soap solution does 2 things:
It loosens their grip on the plant - that's why 2 goes is recommended
It dissolves their skin, through which they breathe and so suffocates them
Phil
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Nice. Where do you buy soap flakes?
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The trouble is that (as Professor C.E.M.Joad used to say on The Brains Trust) "It all depends on what you mean by Organic". Literally, of course, this simply means using only materials derived from living organisms (or their corpses). The question of whether or not any inorganic chemicals you would like to use persist in the environment is neither here nor there - inorganic cannot be organic.
I mainly grow as organically as I reasonably can, which means that I use bone meal, dried blood, hoof & horn meal, animal and poultry manures, brews from various plants, etc. However, I have no idea what the animals or poultry whose manure I use were fed on or had injected into them, so in the true meaning of the word I do not grow organically. In addition (like many people on this site) I add shredded newspapers and cardboard to my compost heap and dig newspapers into my vegetable beds, and as both of these materials have inorganic chemicals of one sort or another added during their processing or printing this puts me even further beyond the pale.
Bordeau mixture is composed entirely of inorganic chemicals and some chemicals go into virtually all soaps, so (whatever the HDRA say) nobody using them is entitled to claim to be growing organically. Again, I use them, so that puts me even further still beyond the pale.
But then, on these considerations, I suspect that there are very few truly organic growers on this site.
It all depends on what you mean by organic
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[quote author=Kepouros
But then, on these considerations, I suspect that there are very few truly organic growers on this site.
It all depends on what you mean by organic
i was reffering to a soil assiociation standard certificat.
i myself far more extremist in my way of growing than them.but i think they are a good example to follow for a start. i think that living in the city ,we have to make more effort to help our environment than the grower who live in the countryside. use of tape water to growth radish, is not acceptable.
i think that they is a lots of organic grower on this site,or at least a lots of them who want to be more organic.This is why i ask to have a organic topic. on this site .i have been shut up.
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Been shut up?????????????????
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Been shut up?????????????????
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i felt like it.on sugestion to the site, to have an organic section.
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I think you'll find there's lots of discussion on Organic growing here, most of it in the appropriate place e.g. pesticides in the pests and diseases bit.
Can't say I'm terribly interested in the SA definition of organic when it comes to growing my own veg -for starters I don't know what was done on my plot or in my garden before I got to it, so I think would have had to 'fallow' it for a period of years before growing anything on them. Other points about compost, bordeaux, soap have been made above.
As to watering I use tap where appropriate -all there is at the allotment as I don't have a shed -even if there was you'd need a heck of a tank to store enough water to be of any use- and there's no ditch. Have to use cans as there's no taps -just troughs. The main thing is to only water when necessary, I'm establishing fruit trees and bushes this year so that means more than normal, but next year they should fend for themselves. Other than that most things (except squash) really only get water when they're wilting (i.e. too late). The greenhouse needs water, tap for the toms, water butt (when there's anything in them) for everything else. That said I want a big tank to catch water off the house roof (just g/house and garage at the mo), and may try and rig up a raincatcher at the allotment -save my back if nothing else..
Jeremy
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I think we've had a good debate, can't see where youv'e been shut. Like Derbex says organic ways are always discussed on here.
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I think that the term organic has just got over used and can mean different things to different people. Lets be honest a lot of people, myself included, have an allotment as a hobby and if every year all my crops got eaten by insects, destroyed by disease or I lost everything because of a drought then I probably would resort to use of appropriate 'non organic' methods. Otherwise it becomes less of an enjoyable pastime and more of a backbreaking chore and frankly I am not trying to save the world with my allotment - just to enjoy it. ;D
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I think we've had a good debate, can't see where youv'e been shut. Like Derbex says organic ways are always discussed on here.
iit was on the weeb site suggestion. i thought it would be a good idea to have an organic section. at the moment we talking via basic stuff. i mean they is a pumkins section, i thought to growt "organic" would diserve a little door. \so far around 300 people open this page, i still dont know who growth minimum SA.
i can see a lots are not organic, and some try, and want to do more..i think an organic section would help in filing info.
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[quote author=Dominique etc... However, I do use tap water - but what else could I do? :-[ ( I have 2 water butts on the allotment, both with only 1inch of rain water in them....)
Tonight I have spread the black fly on my beans with soapy water (pure soap flakes) - is that 'organic'? I feel quite lost now. ::)
D
dont panic, the tape water is ok everybody use it. i have an oppotunity for the last 8 years to farm 1 acre of land with no tape water.i trust the english weather,and the timing of my seeding.
one acre is a minimum i think to create a biodiversity who allowed the controle of pest,more efficeintly. the import of tape water,will change all of it.
. you sounded pretty organic yourself,
maby 10 of you would make an acre, then you can try,to reduce tape water. dont forget, "the rain tell you,when the snail are coming".
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Nice. Where do you buy soap flakes?
NL, Supermarkets have them (where the washing powders are)
This thread is going the way of many in mixed groups and detailed (nit picking) listings of what is and is not orgnaic is not helpful (in fact it becomes devisive)
The aim of organic gardening is to protect the environment and produce food that is as safe as possible to eat. The reason HDRA and SA allow what some might call "non organic" items to be used is that they meet those criteria and they are qualified by the circumstances in which they are "acceptable" - the term acknowledging that they are not ideal but then most of life isn't ideal.
I am against a separate strand for "organic" as:
a. you can't define the term (as is obvious from the previous discussion0
b. it separates out techniques - one of the strengths of the board is that questions very often produce multiple types of answer - the reader can then select the one he/she is most comfortable with.
So could I humbly suggest we stop trying to split hairs and return the norm of sharing our very wide range of experiences in a friendly and non-divisive manner?
Phil
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no bitching, just man to man talk.{sometime man to women}
i still dont know if any body think it could pass a SA test,
that all i want to know for the moment,espesialy for londonner,or city grower.
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I am against a separate strand for "organic" as:
a. you can't define the term (as is obvious from the previous discussion0
b. it separates out techniques - one of the strengths of the board is that questions very often produce multiple types of answer - the reader can then select the one he/she is most comfortable with.
Totally agree Phil. This site is open to all techniques and opinions, and a large majority (see poll) are organic anyway.
Personally I'm not - through necessity, as i'd never manage to grow anything, i've found. I only use minimum non-rganic intrusions I can get away with, and its got to be better than supermarket stuff anyway - certainly tastes it!!
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You're obviously asking us the same question quite a lot LF.
Mass PMs over the weekend, as well access to the poll that had already taken place on the site, which gives you the answer, and then the questions here again - I know it may be of personal interest (obviously) but are you doing some kind of 'official' research?
Don't ask for a particular reason - just interested (i.e. nosey!).
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From having 'accredited as organic' experience I think Phil Cooper hit the nail on the head in that organic does not mean pesticide free (which to the uninitiated refers to anything applied to control pests or weeds including natural substances such as garlic oil).
Instead it simply means that every effort has been made to protect the environment and the food from uneccessary contamination. So are we all organic -probably! Do we all use pesticides - probably! Does it matter - NO!
.....and interestingly even the Soil Association will allow use of pesticides!
So, please if you feel lost or uncertain Dominique don't be. If you are happy carry on as you are. If you decide you are are organic so be it and note that tap-water has little to do with it.
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Don't ask for a particular reason - just interested (i.e. nosey!).
i try to found oranic grower who could share the cost of SA certification. we have to be 5 miles radius of each other.
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I doubt I could go for certification, if only because of the proximity of other allotment holders who do spray. Personally I consider the Soil Association only as guidelines. If they can allow something one year and disapprove the next then it's hardly absolute. In the real world you do sometimes have to make a choice between having a crop and using something you'd prefer not to ( i.e bordeaux). As I've said earlier, people's motivations and principles extend from those who don't use pesticides unless they have to ( unlike conventional growers who may spray as a preventative ) right through to those who won't use bought in compost because of the transport issue. Organic principles extend right the way through to caring about the global environment but that's not what motivates most gardeners I suspect. Of course you've also got vegan organic gardeners who won't use manure.
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I think most people on the forum grow for personal consumption and enjoyment so being certified wouldn't really be an issue. Do you intend to sell produce labeled as organic Londonfarming?
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I would think it would be impossible as an allotment holder to isolate yourself totally from other non organic lottie holders; our plots are too closely intertwined. As I mentioned earlier, however good my intentions are, and I do what I can to be organic, being at the bottom of a sloping aisle of other allotments I am bound to get all sorts of stuff washing down when it rains. So that is totally out of my control, it is just the way the land runs. You would have to enforce it onto the whole plot and a lot of people at my Site would be very resistant unfortunately. busy_lizzie
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From what i understand, most sites don't allow growing for commercial purposes anyway - or am I mistaken?
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Absolutely right Dawn. Unless you are selling for the benefit of your allotment association or charity it is against the rules. busy_lizzie
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Do you intend to sell produce labeled as organic Londonfarming?
that the idea,
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Much good thinking there?
As amateurs, we like to feel that our produce can be chomped off the plant by our children without the need for washing or peeling.
Many small producers, however clean their produce, cannot afford to be certified.
How long has any land been everything free before it can honestly grow certified 'organic' produce?
If growers are encouraged to use less nasties, then that is a step in the right direction?
We use no chemical sprays but we do use some artificial fertilisers. because that's not going to shorten our lives?
etc
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Not sure if its rhetoric or not Tim but if I remember correctly the conversion time for accreditation is 3 years. East Anglia makes a mockery of even that though given that you can still find traces of DDT in the soil there!
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. Personally I consider the Soil Association only as guidelines.
same here,
but from the consumer point of view it represent something organic. so better.
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Posted by: londonfarming Posted on: Today at 22:32:52
Insert Quote
Quote from: djbrenton on Today at 09:14:49
. Personally I consider the Soil Association only as guidelines.
same here,
but from the consumer point of view it represent something organic. so better.
I have to disagree with that. A number of organic veg fail to sell for people like the idea but do not want to pay the extra. If they truly thought better it would sell. Specific examples: lettuce, cabbage, carrot, potato. All generally fail. Also organic veg market only growing at around 3% against an average of 12% for conventional. So I refer back to earlier comments on the validity of being precious about organic attainment.
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I try to be as organic as possible, but I don't bother with rules or certification, which is often irrational or unattainable. For instance, organic honey rules are supersensitive about possible contamination from outside the hive; you have to be at least six miles from anyone using sprays, making it impossible to produce organic honey in the UK. At the same time, you're allowed to use chemicals inside the hive which are so powerful they have a devastating effect on the bees as they accumulate in the wax. As far as I'm concerned that's a nonsense.
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no organic honey in uk?
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Here's one for the books?
Asked why the grower of organic tomatoes, offered at Farmers' Markets, didn't push the organic bit.
I quote - "We have been asked by environmental health/trading standards to over-wrap punnets or vines that are organic on the stall to isolate them from the non-organic tomatoes". Of course, he doesn't!!
With RED TAPE??
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::)
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I'm proud to say that I'm totally organic.
There have been times were I have thought about using weed killer, but I have stopped myselfusing it.
There have been times when I've thought about pesticides, especially when the caterpilars have been eating my cabbages and cauliflowers. but again I haven't.
...And it feels really good!!!
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since we are growing veg to protect our kids from the practices of intensive farming, we are not using chemicals on our plot. however,
we are unclear as to whether the seeds we buy have been modified and we have no say in whether our neighbours spray their crops and so contaminate ours.
our allotments back onto aindustrial estate and the new thames bridge is being built beside us so how organic we can be with that level of pollution is yet to be seen!
still, we do our best in a naive, newbie kind of way. we've built a frog pond to combat slugs, planted native wildflowers to encourage bees and will be asking you londonfarming for advice as we go along! ;D
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however,
we are unclear as to whether the seeds we buy have been modified
Try these, good stuff. ;D
http://www.realseeds.co.uk/
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I'm not at all clear on the comparative dangers of GM foods & Pesticides.
Is not the danger of GM that the foods can be weedkilled without harm to the crop - or somesuch??
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Tim, you're not quite right although that could be one use. The fear with GM is that you are adding genes to a plant that would not normally be found in the plant world. As a result there could be effects on us or the environment that until done cannot be identified or quantified and if long term that could take years or decades by which time it is to late.
eg you could take a toxin from a bacteria or insect and add that gene to a plant to make the plant toxic to pests. It could then be toxic to us as well. Or to take your example the plant through being resistant becomes a pest itself or toxic to beneficial insects - or, even worse passes the gene onto weeds through natural cross fertilisation!
This differentiaties GM from crossbreeding.
Iain
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WOW! THANKS MUBGRUB!! ;D
we've already chosen next years peppers and we're gonna choose some real olde worldy beans next (i want some where the beans inside are bright red like i remember) fab sight thanks for that! ;D ;D ;D
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Dave and Tara: The 'mystery mix' of summer squash is fun, I keep rushing up to the lottie to see if any of the fruit have set and I can tell what they are yet! ;D
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since we are growing veg to protect our kids from the practices of intensive farming, we are not using chemicals on our plot. however,
we are unclear as to whether the seeds we buy have been modified.,,,, its best to buy organic seed,available everywhere in london.or raise your own.
and we have no say in whether our neighbours spray their crops and so contaminate ours..... with time,you meet and you offer them a solution, meanwhile surrounder yourself with blackberries
our allotments back onto aindustrial estate and the new thames bridge is being built beside us so how organic we can be with that level of pollution is yet to be seen!.. we will see/test/
, we do our best in a naive, newbie kind of way. we've built a frog pond to combat slugs, planted native wildflowers to encourage bees and will be asking you londonfarming for advice as we go along! ;D
thank you, by the way how big is your plot?.soil?water? tree?
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Tim, you're not quite right although that could be one use. The fear with GM is that you are adding genes to a plant that would not normally be found in the plant world. As a result there could be effects on us or the environment that until done cannot be identified or quantified and if long term that could take years or decades by which time it is to late.
eg you could take a toxin from a bacteria or insect and add that gene to a plant to make the plant toxic to pests. It could then be toxic to us as well. Or to take your example the plant through being resistant becomes a pest itself or toxic to beneficial insects - or, even worse passes the gene onto weeds through natural cross fertilisation!
This differentiaties GM from crossbreeding.
Iain
thank you,its the first time that i can undestand what GM is really....
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I'm proud to say that I'm totally organic.
There have been times were I have thought about using weed killer, but I have stopped myselfusing it.
There have been times when I've thought about pesticides, especially when the caterpilars have been eating my cabbages and cauliflowers. but again I haven't.
...And it feels really good!!!
hip,hip,hip,hourra. you made me feel really good,thank you.[ do you use tape water? its just a curious question], the other one is,what do you do with the snail and slugs?.im looking for a duck farmer myself.
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In answer to the original post, no one is totally organic, in it's purest sense. If one single tool, seed or plant has been produced using electricity or transported in a vehicle which uses an internal combustion engine then the "organic" claim is not appropriate.
In fact define "organic" if you can, even the use of horse manure can be construed as unnatural.
For the record I try to grow my stuff without resorting to chemicals, sometimes I find it necessary to use a naturally derived chemical and in extreme cases I will use an inorganic chemical spray, hey, we all have to die some day.
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response to the last post;
the question wasnt what is organic?
but who is ,and who is working toward it.{SA as a guide line}
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hi londonfarming!
we are planting blackberries... to stop the vandals, nothing (legal) is as painful as a good bramble ;D
do they also help with contaminants then? ???
our little plot is 60 feet x 30 feet. we have no trees and the soil is very heavy clay. we are in abbey wood, an area of reclaimed marshland which is why we made a pond/bog before even planting anything. lucky for us there is tap water on site, actually, the tap is on our own plot. our neighbours don't speak english (none of them)but appear quite smiley ??? we hope to get a water butt, but they get tampered with. some have been poisened :o
we suspect that the different nationalities are fighting each other, fire bombing sheds etc and so far no-one has bothered us but till we're sure we'll keep using the tap ;D
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just read my last message, i made my little plot sound awful :'(
now i feel strangely disloyal. we love our plot, it's our two fingers up at intensive farming. i love the way my two year old keeps "planting" buttons, coins pen lids etc and one day, probably next spring, our plot will be breathtakingly beautiful and filled to capacity with crops ;D
feel better now ::)
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how big is the full aera.?
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well, ours is a half plot, full plots being 120x30 feet, and i would guess that there are around 60 ish full plots on the site. mind you, i'm pretty rubbish at this sort of thing :-[
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I think this thread is now becoming circular
There is a list of some 70 'organic' gardeners who discuss organic gardening issues - without 'deep and meaningful' discussions about what is and isn't organic or who is more organic than who (with never a mention of tape water)
It is not about commercial certification but is for the sort of gardeners on this list - if you want to know more send me a pm
Phil
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hey, we all have to die some day.
...but later, rather than sooner, preferably...
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well, ours is a half plot, full plots being 120x30 feet, and i would guess that there are around 60 ish full plots on the site. mind you, i'm pretty rubbish at this sort of thing :-[
would you said as big as a football pitch?
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dave tells me that the whole area (all the allotments put together) amounts to one and a half to two times the size of highbury. (and he should know being a lifelong arsenal supporter) ::)
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Dave tells me that the whole area (all the allotments put together) amounts to one and a half to two times the size of highbury. (and he should know being a lifelong arsenal supporter) ::)
good. the first step i did when i got my allotment was to asks for a map of the site. i then asked each plot older what king of gardening they where using. i then put a red spot on chemical,green on going into organic. i could see better where i was.
different way of being organic, mean that i had to use other color.
it worked well and could see where we were and how/who we could help.
1 acre made us eligible for a SA certificate. i thought it was a good news, especially in the city. the way we cultivate played
an important part.
it look like you plot could be 2 acre.
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...but later, rather than sooner, preferably...
For some people maybe ;)