Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => The Basics => Topic started by: lushy86 on July 14, 2009, 20:45:40
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I think I may have made a basic mistake.... We got a lovely load of manure from a local stables it was meant to be well rotted but I could see hay and hair in it. I used it on the bed for my runners and made a sort of hot bed for my courgettes with just the manure. Well the beans curled up and looked awful and the leaves on the courgettes are not flat but kind of half curled up though I am getting fruit - is this because the manure was too new?
I had planned to cover the whole plot in manure over winter and not grow anything in preparation for the spring as this is my first year and things have not been organised properly but now I wonder if this is wise, a neighbour said she wont use manure till it has sat in her heap for a couple of years - help!
Lushy x
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No, it's not because the manure was too fresh. It's because it was contaminated with aminopyralid.
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Can't help if the manure is contaminated, but as to covering the plot over winter with manure, I covered my plot with fresh manure and straw last winter (my first year).
I was told by some that I would have to "scrape it off" before I planted in spring. Anyway I just dug it in before planting and have had some really good stuff including carrots and parsnip.
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No, it's not because the manure was too fresh. It's because it was contaminated with aminopyralid.
Thats a rather broad statement Ceres!
Although I don't disagree with you I would have to add that there are a number of other things it could be as well.
For example;
Lushy says;
made a sort of hot bed
If the compost is still decomposing, particularly in the showery relatively warm weather we have had recently, the compost could be decidedly warm and the plant is turning its nose up at it (in this case its leaves)
the beans curled
As any one who has exhibited runner beans will know, you must never allow the bean tip to touch a leaf or stem or again it will turn its nose up, this could be the case here.
Like your answer these answers are opinions based on the information given and past experience so I hope I have not offended you by offering 'other possibilities'
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Agree with Ceres. It's the classic sign, leaves curling up. Sorry. Don't spread it over your plot. And it won't help if you compost it, because the aminopyralid doesn't break down with heat.
Can't do the clever stuff of referring you to previous posts, but do a search and you'll find masses of posts about a year ago when we were all researching this.
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Oh dear, I thought it was from a source I could trust, will do a search as suggested. TeeGee I don't understand the thing about the beans, they were very floppy and spindly and didn't want to be trained up the pole. The courgettes are growing and fruiting. I have them growing through black weed suppressant fabric to keep the moisture in, I wonder if I should take it off? Thank you for your replies, I thought they were being frazzled by fresh manure. :(
Lushy x
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I've read lots of posts and it looks like it could be the contamination, it seemed quite fresh so the nasty stuff is clearly still out there. I'm feeling really disheartened now and don't know what to do next. There is just too much I don't know :'(
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Lushy,
Next time the best thing is to stack it somewhere close by and ask the question before you do anything. Better to have asked and feel a fool than not and look one.
I too had trouble with horse manure a few years back and have only used cow manure previously. So the art of horse manure is a bit different than cow manure.
An error now will be remembered later and you can rectify this next time.
The best thing you can do now is hope that things turn around for you.
Look to next season and plan ahead. Good planning from here on will make sure that mistakes do not occur in the future.
I would cut my losses and start a fresh.
If you could lift and stack it then there is still plenty for you to sow and plant that will tide you over the coming months.
Good luck in this new venture.
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This problem is not a matter of horse manure v cow manure or any other animal. It is about the new herbicide used on the hay fields which is absorbed by the hay, fed to an animal (or yokel type person) and then excreted in urine or poo into the bedding material.
Now the weedkiller is not permitted on straw fields but there is lots of evidence that it is being used on these fields. Therefore. Any product or material that could possibly contain hay, straw, manure or any byproducts of these ingredients could be contaminated. This also includes commercial bagged composts.
The gardener must test all products before use. This problem has only just begun to appear and will get far much worse in years to come.
Several members of this forum, including myself will be creating websites devoted to the subject and will explain the problem in greater detail but websites tend to be winter pastimes.
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Muddylou.................I see your shed looks very much like mine did before it curled up and fell to pieces :'( The cladding was fixed in place using staples...........they rusted). The phenomenon cannot be blamed on contaminated manure..............I use seaweed :D
TeeGee. Nice to see you consider the alternative possibilites until it is proven the manure is contaminated. :)
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Thanks ceres for the PM I really appreciate it. I'll take some pictures of the courgettes and post, they are planted directly into the manure. I gave up on the beans and have planted some more somewhere else. They did have a nasty attack of blackfly too. My friend had the same manure so will also check with her how her stuff is doing. Thanks all for your input.
Lushy x
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Muddylou.................I see your shed looks very much like mine did before it curled up and fell to pieces :'( The cladding was fixed in place using staples...........they rusted). The phenomenon cannot be blamed on contaminated manure..............I use seaweed :D
Thanks bjerreby. You just reminded me why I seldom bother posting about aminopyralid any more.
You use seaweed, yeah, and don't we just know it.
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Lushy, if you need any more info feel free to contact me by PM.
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I have been having a little run in with manure. Does not seem to affect the courgettes and squashes at all. Beans looking very sad. But they are beginning to grow through the problem.
I read that this herbicide in question does break down in soil, so I mixed soil and water and sloshed it on the affected areas in the hope that it would penetrate, and have had some success. Some of my breeding stock of beans are producing good new growth, so only some leaves are affected, seems to affect the leaves which were about to grow when I did the mulching with affected manure.
I have been wondering whether the problem is also affected by the soil type since I have had no problems in areas where the manure was thoroughly covered.
If the problem can affect straw, presume there is a possibility it will affect the wheat. In the mean time I will have to resist eating the bedding. ;D ;D ;D
Having been more or less organic for 23 years I am rather neurotic about the prospect of being exposed to these chemicals even broken down in the soil.
By the way Ceres your inbox is full and you are unable to receive new PM.
Since we cannot trace where our contamination actually came from it is now in the system. Perhaps it will not be long before it is found in the seaweed.
Testing does not seem to be the total answer because the problems seems to be able to be very patching, so you could test some of a batch and get no problems but then find there was a pocket....
There are a lot of posts on USA forums about leaves curling, but they are putting it down to a virus that affects tomatoes and beans called Leaf Curl. They say you should burn the evidence as quickly as possible.
Mine is certainly not a virus, the older leaves and the newest leaves are unaffected.
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Muddylou.................I see your shed looks very much like mine did before it curled up and fell to pieces :'( The cladding was fixed in place using staples...........they rusted). The phenomenon cannot be blamed on contaminated manure..............I use seaweed :D
TeeGee. Nice to see you consider the alternative possibilites until it is proven the manure is contaminated. :)
right, you've got me worried now :o
Off to the lottie for me and check me shed for staples.... :) Oh dear....
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I have spoken to my friend who has used some of the manure but not as much as me and she seems to be ok. Our council is not delivering manure after all of theirs was contaminated last year apparently so many of the other plot holders have a chap who delivers a load for £20. This appears to come from the same stables and is fine - is there possibly another reason for my problem? I realise that many of you might be a bit fed up with newbies asking questions all the time but I need to make sure I don't make the same mistakes again ::)
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Yes there is another explanation, the manure is just too fresh so its too 'hot'.
You could try scraping the manure off then adding lime where it has caused a problem to try to nutralize its effects in ths short term :)
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oops! look like I have blotted my copy book sorry about that but I did say;
Although I don't disagree with you I would have to add that there are a number of other things it could be as well.
Then there is the other thing that happens quite regularly when people ask questions.
Sometimes they do not give the full story in their initial query and when people like you(Ceres) and me answer the query based on our own experience we sometimes get it wrong or be at cross purposes.
Then low and behold later; as the opinions expand,and more explicit information comes to light we find that this often puts things in a different light.
I think this article is one such article i.e. more information has come to light i.e. the courgettes are not IN the compost( as I thought) they are under sheeting, the beans are not twisting around the canes and therefore will be quite spindly, so it is not the actual beans it it the bean plant that is the problem.
So you see how easy it is to get it quite wrong!!
Sorry if I was a bit blunt with my statement but I am always wary of adamant statements before all the facts come to light hence my bluntness.
As I said before I didn't disagree with you! and never would until armed with all the facts!
In light of the new info I am inclined to go along with you.
Finally; I hope their is no ill feeling between us, in fact if the truth be known I have been quite interested in the articles you have written on the 'dodgy manure'
We don't seem to be troubled with it up here in my neck of the woods hence my complacency and difference of opinion on the matter, and because of this I think it is quite understandable that I didn't put 'dodgy manure' down as the probem, certainly not before looking at other potential reasons.
I hope that clarifies my intent/meaning on the whole matter!...TG
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Just to be clear on this as I don't want to cause any trouble -
I put sheeting down over a strimmed patch of couch, laid the manure on it, planted courgette plants I grew at home directly into the manure then covered them with sheeting and cut holes out for them. I thought this would work as my neighbour grows them straight in manure and they are going mad!
For the beans I dug a small patch, forked in the manure then planted the bean plants I gew at home. They looked fine although possibly a bit leggy.
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it's not easy trying to find out for definite whether manure is contaminated or not i'm still not sure about the pile i've got, it seemed to badly affect my broad beans but they have now recovered and look normal, i had some courgettes planted in it and they were completely normal, i've now grown some more beans in some manure to test it and they are not looking good :(
i've now got to decide what to do with a 8 ton pile of it, i was advised to spread it on the beds and keep digging it over but i'm not sure i like the idea of that and i can't dispose of it there is to much.
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OK. I give up. No one wants to listen yet you are only suffering from a mere trial. The real problems start next spring then you will all be amazed, and make excuse after excuse... But will you listen? Nah.
I'll be all right because I now fully understand the beast, its strengths and weaknesses.
A local Council refused to deploy it because it was contaminated so plonkers pay privately to have it delivered anyway. If I may quote Victor Meldrew:
"I do not believe it".
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Eristic if you are referring to my post about the council I do not know where they sourced their manure and I doubt if it is from the same place as those who are buying are getting it from. I went to the stables and got a trailer load for free!
Staris there is a thread about aminopyralid I just read in pests and diseases, it seems the supplier of the chemical is going to offer testing kits and if positive will remove the manure for you - check it out
Lushy x
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We were lucky enough to get 4 year old FYM this year & had enough to do all the beds except roots of course. We won't be as lucky again so had a chat & will not bother. We can't generate enough home made compost. What are the alternatives, & what are others going to do?
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I have two plots - which when I hear how big some of yours are are probably only just one full plot!
I can generate more compost than I need by using stuff around me! I am given donations of cut grass etc I collect compost from where I work, coffee from a coffee shop and the rest is chicken housing/shredded paper and bedding stuff and long grass weeds etc - all mixed in!
I have 4 very large composters and generate enough compost for my plots. I do have the advantage of occasional sea weed - but it is only occasional as it is not on the beach all the year. I did have manure from the local stables which did not contain straw or hay - and I still have access to this - but from all the scare stories that I am hearing - I am not bothering with this.
I think you need to be a bit more inventive and look further from your immediate vicinity to fully take advantage of various compost materials that are available and are currently just being sent to landfill.
Old Bird
You can make more compost of your own if you ask your neighbours/friends/family for all their leftovers
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we make compost, gather leaves in autumn, chicken bedding etc and green manures as the beds become empty ;D
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I have a seemingly reliable source of stable manure from a pile that is years old. In fact the pile is so big you can see it on google maps! I have used loads of it to date but will still take care in future. I do compost everything I can at home and on the plot but I can't make enough to condition my London clay.
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I here what you are saying Old bird. We have a half plot, 18'x50' which is infested with horsetail & bindweed so weeding is difficult & time consuming. I do put the annual weeds in a separate container so they can be composted, I also collect the coffee grains from our local sandwich shop. The neighbours are veg growers so compost there own peeling etc. My friend has moved to Portugal & she used to drop all her bits off to me, another friend brings me bin bags of shredded paper from her office. We put feed & weed on the lawns at home so can't use the grass cuttings ATM, 2 more cuts to go. We have 2 3'x3' composters at the plot & a huge hexaganol one at home. The home one is nearly full & one of them at the plot is 1/3 full. We had to take the potato haulms to the tip as they had blight. I am changing my pet bedding so I can put it all in the composter. The local shop gives me fruit & veg they can't sell, so all in all I think I am doing my best, & I have 5 comfrey plants thanks to Tony, which will be cut down when they have flowered & composted.
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I have a small pile of manure in a corner, but I have decided against using it yet, I have my neighbour saving his garden waste for me and together with mine and bags of shredded paper I have 6 daleks on the go and a palleted heap where all the two year stuff goes in. Also I collect leaves which the council sweep up and put in bags which somehow find there way on to my plot, I have about twenty piled up behind my shed ;) The council now tip us compost which I am using and will proberly cover my plot with it in the winter. ;D ;D ;D