Allotments 4 All
Produce => Edible Plants => Topic started by: Beer_Belly on September 11, 2003, 22:44:59
-
I've read a lot on this subject and think I understand most of it, I'm going to go for the 4 or 5 year rotation but there is one thing that puzzles me. If I have one bed with potatoes in it and after I pull the potatoes I plant leeks, the next year do I have to avoid both potatoes and leeks ?
puzzled,
BB ???
-
Sort of. There is no real need, but it would be better to go for a brassica or salad or say fennel crop, then you could go back to a root crop like swede/turnip/beetroot. The whole point of rotation is to avoid the build up of pathogens in the soil and to avoid using up the particular trace elements which each kind of plant needs. BUT it all depends on the size of your plot,in a tiny space then it is more difficult. In that case all you need to do is to add the trace elements in whatever way you prefer. Eric.
-
Hiya BB again, I am going for a 3 year rotation as advised in Hessayon's book The Vegetable and Herb Expert. Next time you are in the UK, or perhaps kin/friends in the UK, could get a copy of this book from any "shed" eg B&Q, Focus, Garden Centre, because it really is a mine of information.
Basically, the rotation is BRASSICAS, ROOTS, OTHERS. However, I've prepared a raised bed for carrots where I've mixed two sacks of silver sand into the soil. So, apart from fertilising with growmore or similar, there will be no crop rotation for the carrots.
I understand it is essential tro rotate peas and beans because of the nitrogen left in the soil by the roots. Having said that my friend has been planting beans in the same small plot at home, year in year out, without mishap.
-
Oh no!!! I don't believe it!! Just when I thought I was safe from the advice of the Good Doctor... ;D :o ....
I'm a little puzzled here.I'd believed that the perceived current wisdom was to plant beans in the same trench as the N actually improved the site? Certainly my beans just get better and better and since I read this I've stopped feeling, guiltily, that I've 'got away with it' yet again.. - 'Lishka
-
I thought it was David THERE;"FOR.A:MO; ....
Me beans are always in the same place and this year better than ever before :D
-
You are correct Alishka. By growing legumes in one particular spot you are initially inoculating the soil with high levels of the Rhizobacter involved in N fixation and then subsequently maintaining a high population of these Rhizobacter. Luckily runner beans are not susceptible to diseases in the UK (not being natives) but rotation may be neccessary for peas if they start showing infection of soil persistent pathogens.
-
Colin, that's where I'm puzzled, take the 3 year rotation Brassicas, roots, others - It's understandable if I do the following - Year 1 spuds, Year 2 leeks, Year 3 caulis. BUT I'm doing Year 1 spuds and then leeks, ie both in the same year so what goes in next, brassicas ? but then year 3 I go back to spuds - but that's too quick - see what my problem is ? - Oh and I've got the book thanks - it's great but I can't find the answer to this in it. - BB
-
I'm glad its not just me - its difficult to define a 'year' in gardening terms - if I put autumn onion sets in, and then spring sets in the same bed, they are all out by autumn so is that OK - all the books show three or four nice beds, but so many of the groups of plants now seem to have such a variety of veg that can go in from spring to autumn there can be almost continual sowing, cropping and overwintering so there isn't a nice cut off date between groups. I do think though that I may be making it more complicated than it really is because I don't have a couple of cropping years under my belt.
-
HELLO JOHN!!! ;D ;D ;D
I'm so very pleased that you've followed the trail here...
Back to runner bean trenches...for the first year in many, many, I've moved my construction of 28 canes (14 each side + 'cross-bars half-way-up) and wondered how they would fare? And yes! they've cropped well...S.E's +PLs & Raaker french beans (thanks Ina)...but I'm thinking of leaving the canes in over-winter for next year's crop????
I've never done this before...what might be the pitfalls to this lazy solution, please?? And how would I improve the trench without undermining the canes - topdressing, perhaps, with a layer of well-rotted late October??
I always start off my bean seeds in peat-pots in cold frames & reckon to plant them out in March/April.
A friend, who lives in the South of England, experienced Halo Blight in his runners this year...it sent me to a search engine to read about it..is this common, does anyone know?? - Lishka
-
BB, Lishka, having read John Miller's comments, I must admit confusion. I can't find where I got the information to rotate peas and beans, but I will continue searching. Knowing John's reputation, I shall reverse my decision to rotate my peas and beans, except within the five beds allocated. Thank you John for correcting the information I got from somewhere.
BB, when I laid out my lottie last year, I put in three 8m x 2m plots to allow for 3 year rotation. So I got too many spuds which took up two plots, too many onions which took up the third plot, and no brassicas. So all the clever planning went to pot. Ah well !!!
-
That's not ower John is it - he of the strap on night light and blue sky gazing ....... Oh not it isn't, Oh yes it is!!!!!
Is it ?? (with slightly altered nom de plume?)
If it is (and not another John) then Hullo :) If you're not ower John then completely disregard this babble!
-
Hello Suze!
I'm not into yet another late night :-/ ....well, OK, but I'm not, really NOT - and bang goes another Good Resolution, but John Miller (a modest man!!) currently lives in N. America, and what he doesn't know abt 'P' and 'N' and all letters of the alphabet, just ain't worth knowing...
To Colin...Ower John knows his stuff, really he does. The Good Doctor is a wee bit out of date, I'd think? Full of Good Intentions, sure, but............
;) Lishka
-
Ohmigod Lishka! The poor chap must think I am completely barking - I assumed it was the other John with a slightly different moniker :-[
Please reassure him I am quite sane :-/ and know a lot of bean recipes!!!
-
I'm not sure if this will help - I hope I'm not over-complicating crop rotation. Demystification - by thick fog!
Step 1 - far and away THE most important
Back when I was just starting, I was VERY fortunate to hear Bob Fowerdew on GQT say something along the lines of "JUST DO IT! Make sure you don't grow the same thing in the same place two years in a row!" Sound advice - KISS, just rotate!
Step 2 - Ah, but I wanted to do it right
I think there are three sets of things to think about -
1. Rotate by families (so brassica are a bit complicated - including turnips, swedes, radishes and rocket!).
2. Think about how susceptible your crop families are to soil-borne disease, bugs and pests - either as sufferers, or potential hosts!
2a) Some crops "must have" rotation - ie those very susceptible - potatoes and brassicas;
2b) Some crops "are quite keen on" a rotation - the onion family (unless you have white rot); and the carrot family. Leeks are probably the least susceptible of all the onions, so they are quite flexible - and can fit in a number of places (mine go in after early potatoes);
2c) Some crops "are generally not that choosy - but it's worth humouring them" - peas and beans;
2d) And some, bless their cotton socks, are just "eager to please (me, not themselves!)", and can go anywhere - beetroot, spinach, lettuce, squash-type veg.
3. And then some crops may benefit the next crop to come
3a) Beans and peas fix nitrogen - so let nitorgen-hungry brassica follow them.
3b) Potatoes don't like lime, so follow them with liming, and crops that like lime most (brassica, or beans/peas).
3c) Roots dig deep and break up the soil - so follow them with potatoes.
3d) Brassica like a firm soil, so perhaps best to go for potatoes followed by beans/peas, followed by brassicas; the onion family are generally happy in the firm soil left by the brassica.
Work out all the permutations and you get (a lottery win? - sorry, no can do!)
- Beans/peas,
- followed by Brassica,
- followed by Onion family,
- followed by carrots/parsnips,
- followed by potatoes, (add lime in winter)
- and back to the beginning
Now - what are you NOT going to grow/eat!!!!!
- knock out any families you DON'T want to grow;
- merge families when you don't want that much - I merge onions and carrots/parsnips - which fits what we eat (and the fact I can't grow succesful carrots!);
- and then slip in the "user-friendly" veg - most of mine go in the Beans/peas plot, except for leeks which follow the early potatoes.
Oh s..t, I do hope I haven't made it all even more complicated!
All best wishes - Gavin
-
RIGHT, I've found out where I got the advice to rotate peas and beans - and its Dr Hessayon. Ummm.
I think I would rather believe our good sage John Miller. Thank you very much for your advice. However, I've been thinking, although I don't have to rotate peas and beans, there is no reason why I shouldn't, is there John?
Gavin, your dissertation on Rotation is superb and I shall save it to disk to refer to later. Hessayon can go onto the top shelf for now.
-
Alishka:- One and the same. Like Clement Attlee , a modest (little, at 5' 6", too) man with a lot to be modest about.
Colin:- My very first gardening book, a gardening compendium received as a Christmas present back in the '70's, was advising not rotating beans to take advantage of the increased levels of Rhizobacter from a previous crop. I'm not sure when the good doctor came along but his books were after my time in the UK so his books may have been out of date before they were published! My source was advising dedicating an area, preferably on the North side of your plot due to shading concerns, to growing runner beans.
That being said there is no reason why you shouldn't place beans in a rotation. Properly prepared soil (i.e. trenched or at least double dug) from a runner crop should be followed by a crop that benefits from high N. - brassicas come immediately to mind. If you do rotate it will be advisable to remember that beans may harbour the same diseases that affect peas so even though they are symptomless they may perpetuate pea pathogens into a succeeding pea crop. I would follow Gavin's rotation (if only to save yourself a lot of work!) but I would try to incorporate a fourth year where an area is left to grow a cover crop which can be dug in. If you are planning a rotation remember that tomatoes and potatoes are not 'cousins' of strawberries (as I recently read on the Beeb boards). They are not even in the same family (tomatoes are in Solanaceae-nightshades, strawberries are in Rosaceae, the rose family) so can quite happily be successional.
Alishka again:- Halo blight is caused by a bacteria. It is seed borne initially but spreads through splashing water, either from rain or watering. Obviously rain is not something you can do anything about but if watering aim the stream at the ground and avoid splashing the leaves.
-
Thank you once again John, I'm so glad you joined this Board to keep us all on the right lines.
-
I just have to say hello! John - and to add that my belief has always been to keep the same plot for beans. But, as Lishka asks, how best to keep improving the soil?
Needless to say, I find I can't stick to a formal rotation - rather, things go in where there's space and when it's been possible to dig it. But I do try to move things around as much as possible. One just doesn't have neat little squares of garden - each crop is of a quite different size - things overlap, and things stay in the ground, sometimes, way beyond the ideal time for re-using that area.
We survive! - Tim
-
I've put a "reply" to this thread to bring it forward and to make it easier for Jock to read - it's all good stuff.
As for myself, I plead insanity.
-
i'm a newbie who's gone for a full lottie. 'cos the lottie can grow more than i can eat (being just me) i've decided to split my lottie into three. one third is going under plastic/tarpaulin to keep the weeds down, one third is having mustard sown for green manure and the final third is what i'll cultivate. the plan is to move everything around over a three year plan, this i'm hoping will keep the nutrients balanced. it'll also give a better idea of what will grow best where.
here's hoping.
-
ooh and if you rotate the crops within the growing area as well you could have a 9 or 12year rotation! fantastic!
-
Now I am totally confused. Sorry!
I thoght i had this rotation lark sorted out, now i am reading so many different things, I am not so sure any more.
As some of you may know i grow my veg in raised beds, currently 4 plus 2 'flat' beds which i hope to convert soon into raised ones. in one i grow strawberries, another one has annual flowers for cutting (including sweet peas), another bed is slightly more shaded than the rest so I m more restricted here in what i can grow.
Since constructing the beds I have tried to rotate properly, however with the introduction of the strawberry bed, and the cut flower bed, it has become more complicated and harder to execute a proper rotation.
It is even more complicated by the crops that I grow. These have always included Runner beans, potatoes, salad crops (beetroot and lettuce) and corgettes. Recently i have started to grow peas and cabbages, and whilst the last named has introduced brassicas into the equation, ther is still a heavy weighting of leguminous crops, which tends to complicate things further.
I have always felt it best to rotate the beans, because of the supposed nitrogen build up, which can then benefit the suceeding crop. Having read the benefits of keeping Runners inthe same place, I am curious and wouldnt mind trying just once to see. I think it would have to be the same crop exactly not just another legume, as I found myself this year trying to grow peas where the beans had been immediately before. The peas failed, maybe for a different reason, but it seems no coincidence to me that it was legume following legume.
Of course the only drawbck to growing beans in the same plce from my point of veiw, is that it would restrict the rotation of the other crops (particularly those that need it) still further.
I think on the whole I subscribe to Bob Flowerdew's theory, as long as no crop (except perhaps R beans!) is grown in the same place two years running , then it doesnt matter, just do what suits you and the plot best.
This said i plan to have a change round over the next two years; coinciding with the introduction of the two new beds. the strawberries will be replaced and moved and the cut flower bed will form part of the rotation from next year, so things should improve.
-
Wow! Richard - you rotate flowers?? What you growing - girasole and ipomoea ??? ??? ;D ;D ;D
-
Wow! Richard - you rotate flowers?? What you growing - girasole and ipomoea ??? ??? ;D ;D ;D
No 'Lish, I dont actualy ROTATE flowers ;D. Its just that i grow a bed of annuals for cutting (call it a sort of green manure which flowers) in the veg garden. To allow me to rotate the crops properly they have to form part of the rotation.
out of interest the flowers i grow like this are; Sweet peas, annual lavatera, cornflowers and pot marigolds (calendula). :). I find that the soil in the veg garden is the best place to grow sweet peas particularly, in fact i think it is the traditional place to grow them (?) :-/
Regards
Richard
-
grew sweet peas and mange tout round a wigwam this year- very pretty they looked too & a good use of space.Good crops from both.
-
Whoa ! I started this thread in September and all of a sudden it's got a new flurry of activity ;)
-
well im going to use the "BFT" (Bob Flowerdew Theory) cause its sounds pretty damned simple for a new guy on the plot !!!!
Merry Xmas and a Happy new yr Bob and to all that follow !!!
-
Wow! what a subject, my brain is 'rotating' after reading all this.
Now can I put in my tuppence worth?
I have computerised my allotment!
To explain, my plots are laid out in 10m (30ft) x 1.5m (5ft) beds, and when freshly dug they look like a 'spread sheet........get my drift ;)
At the end of each season I sit at my computer, allocate a spread sheet column to a bed, and each row is a plant row, then I set out what and where I am going to grow stuff next season.
Incidently, to assist rotation, as the beds are 10m long, by growing something at one end of the bed this year and at the other end next year I have rotated them.
Another big advantage with this system is; I can see what I want in the way of plants prior to planting out so I only need grow on enough to suit my needs.
This is particulary beneficial when I need cold frame space in late spring, i.e. I do not have excess plants vying for space that I need for other plants.
If all this is too much to take in at the moment, have a look under 'computers. (C) on my website for more info on how I do it. http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk
-
WOW whaat a site very very useful.Just brilliant.
-
I second that!!
What a brilliant site.
Like the Idea of using a computer to plan things. Its one of my resolutions for 2004 to be more organised in the garden. Perhaps this is the way to do it(?)
Like also the planner giving tasks for each week. though would have to be modified for different regions. I am guessing this is a 'south of england' planner? :-/
-
Not quite right Richard . You may have noticed my reply to the 'Sweet Corn' thread by now, if not ! this will explain a few more details.
-
Richard,
Suggest you ask the Gardener how many hours he has spent pulling his almanac together!!!
Personally I have a simple excel sheet.... weeks across the top.... varieties down the side. I then insert the number of plants/rows I plan to plant in each week in the appropriate interlinking cell.
Using the filters functions in Excel I can quickly produce a spreadsheet showing which seeds need sowing in a particular week. In this way I can produce a task list for the lottie/potting shed.
For each variety I have a comments field where I note anything that will be of interest in the following season.
Regarding crop rotation, I have three beds of equal size that I rotate. Other beds, such as herbs, fruits, asparagus are left un-rotated.
-
To 'The gardener' (nice original name there - lol) Sorry couldnt help that one
Any way, I HADNT read your reply in the Sweet corn thread, but have now thanks. Yes some sort of chart on the site would be good. Though now I know where you are I can probably make a 'guestimation' based on your timetable.
I am VERY impressed by your site, and the work that has obviously gone into it by the way.
-
Steve! in answer to your query;
a bl***y long time. in fact it is still ongoing.
and to Richard glad you liked it, and thanks to the others who have commented on it .
These replies make it feel all worth while............and whilst on my ego horse ;) a few comments in my guestbook would be nice.
-
I would take it as a complement if people visit but don't find the time to sign your book.
I suspect most like me had to be dragged from the site. In my case by a nagging wife saying, "aren’t you coming to bed tonight?"