Allotments 4 All
General => News => Topic started by: OliveOil on April 06, 2007, 17:29:01
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I'll keep this short. I have an allotment on a private site. The land has been gardens for over a hundred years. We believe the owner of the allotment left the land for people to garden within a 1/2 mile radius of the site. The 'owner' is rumoured to be selling the land and has given us until October to vacate the site. He is giving us another site - much much less land and it is scrub land - not much use for allotments. Also it is in a built up area and would be very unsecure.
A meeting last night at the site with owners solicitor ended up with everyone on the allotments telling him to bugger off and we aren't leaving!
So can anyone tell us what we can do? We don't have any documentation saying that the land was left to local people so where could i find the womans will? Is there a central place I could look?
As the site has been allotments for over 100 years is there any protection?
Thanks
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Olive Oil, wills are public domain. I don't know where you go, look on the net, but folks doing their geneology get them all the time. Somebody will know. XX Jeannine
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I don't know the answer Olive, but I do hope someone can help you, all the best/ shades x
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hope you can sort this out, olive oil, we're all heartily sick of this attitude..give us all a shout and we'll come round there and sort them out !!
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Sorry Olive I cannot answer your question. I do hope that somebody on the site will be able to help you.
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OliveOil - try
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/familyhistory/wills/step2.htm
which directs you to the Principal Registry of the Family Division in the Probate Search Room (London)
Don't know if this is the sort of thing you're looking for - but really hope you get it sorted out in your favour. Best of luck - not to mention fair play and justice ;D
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Hi Olive get in touch with the NSALG the national society of allotment and leisure gardeners head office is O' Deil House, Hunters Road, Corby, Northants, NN17 5JU i am sure the can help you sort this out let me know how it go's
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Olive forgot to give you tel phone number it's 01536 266578 email natsoc'nsaig.org.uk good luck
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Thanks for the links and advice. As soon as I can find out the woman's name I can get onto it. Otherwise I don't think we have a leg to stand on, though if we do I'm sure one of us will find it LOL.
Am feeling really upset and deflated!
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What a shame OO you must be devistated after all the hard work you have put in. I do hope you manage to beat these b******s.
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Olive can you not find out who the woman's solicitor is they should have a copy of her will , good luck on this and hope it all works out
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Hi Olive, http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php is a brilliant family history site :) Find the county board you want and post your message there, there are many people who will help and give you guidence :)
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Hello Olive - having read your post and feeling great sympathy with your predicament, did some quick googling. It seems that even private allotment land is subject to planning procedures. So, somewhere, the local council must have an application from the owner if they want to use the land for something else. I would have thought that this means that you can formally object to the local authority. If so,it would be a good idea to canvas support from not only allotment holders, but local residents, who may not like the idea of it being changed, to, for example be built on etc.
There seem to be loads of development plans on the net about land, council strategies etc in Lincs, and not knowing the actual address or local authority concerned, I found it hard to choose links to show you. I googled on phrases like:
Planning procedures change of use private allotment Grantham
If you do this you may find something of use, but would think that your local authority planning offices would be the place to start in order for you to find out what is intended and then start your objections.
The very best of luck with this, and maybe it would be an idea for you to start an on-line petition as well as a localised paper one.
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Two lines of approach:
One: Find out the benefactor's name & dates, then you can set about tracing the will. If you know her name, a search on the internet for the census and births, marriages & deaths will give you her dates. (www.findmypast.com is a good site) I've never researched wills (none of my ancestors was rich enough to leave one) but there are plenty of things published now: try the local library, or one of the monthly genealogy magazines (look in Smiths). It may have been in the local paper at the time. Worth a phone call. Or try googling her name or any other key words you can think of. I did that with our site and came up with all sorts of interesting stuff.
Two: Look on your council's website under planning and you should be able to download the application, both forms & maps; you can in our borough. Then you can put in a formal objection. But hurry, because there will be a cut-off date. If there are enough objections, the plans will be delayed at least, which will give you time to organise something a bit more high-profile. Get your MP & local councillors involved: they are all trying to look green at the moment and there are elections coming up.
Best of luck. We're all rooting for you.
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HI guys - thanks for all of your support.
There is no planning application in what so ever. It is believed that the owner wants to sell it as a brownfield site with no strings attached.
The earliest record to link it back to gardens is 1875.
No one knows who the woman was by name and she didnt leave a will... and died in america. I've tried to trace it but can't.
The land isn't registered as its not been sold.
One guy i spoke to tonight said he has been there 25 years and wont be moving - i'm thinking squatter rights here as we dont pay rent and have no agreement so in effect are squatters i guess... but that doesnt help me as i have only been there a year.
I'll keep you posted... but although our allotment people are lovely there seems to be history between some of the old boys and they barely speak... so getting information is hard and getting everyone together is even harder... I just feel i'm waiting for the secretary to tell us what is happening.
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If someone's been gardening that land freely for over 12 years without paying rent, then under common law they may even own it. You need legal advice, and the NSALG is the forst place to go.
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I agree with Robert,
I think you could possibly apply for legal ownership,
but a lawyer would be able to tell you for sure, get legal advice asap
Good Luck ;)
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I agree with Robert and that by default ~ it is now common land. However, get legal advice. (Has the precedent been set anywhere else in England?)
I believe that the CAB give free advice or you may be able to get 15 mins consultation free, try ringing a few.
Land agents will also be able to advise you.
Obviously the solicitors acting on behalf of the owner would be your first port of call with the backing/representation of the NSALG, much better to negotiate from the outset rather than antagonise ~ you never know.
If not get Charlie Boy on the case! Set up your own e-petition on 10 Downing Streets website!
Good Luck
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Hey OO, what a nasty situation you're in :(
Makes sense to me that the ground may be common land, so I'd follow that lead up if I were you.
But my first thought was that if the landowner is planning on selling the land, then perhaps some pressure on the local council to purchase it & provide allotments might be worthwhile? There are rules about the authority having to provide some land for allotments if a certain number of residents require it?
Good luck, and keep us updated on your progress x
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Some points I hope will help
I understand that under common law if someone puts a fence round a piece of land and it is there for seven years the person who put the fence up assumes ownership. This happened in a place I lived in in Surrey there was a piece of vacant land in front of our row of cottages and the owner of an adjacent house fenced it off and after 7 years claimed ownership (of course this depends on whether your allotments have a fence and who put it up) I don't know the full ins and outs but it is what a neighbour told me
How did the current owners obtain title to the land? If the previous owner did not leave a will then somewhere it will be recorded how they obtained the title have you tried the Land Registry?
There is a family history mailing list for Lincolnshire, send an Email to
eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com With the word "subscribe" in the subject line you can then post a message. The more information you can provide (name exact location etc) the more likely you will get replies
Wishing you all the best
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Hi Olive i still think you should get in touch with nsalg they have a solicitor that can help in these situations and good luck,
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OO I am devastated for you will PM you a site that might be able to help with the American side of things
Try your local church they may have some information to help as they were every much involved with the local community way back
good luck
BB :)
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I'll get in touch tomorrow sutton girl.
Petit pois - some of the plots have been fenced off by their tenants and have been for over 7 years. From what i understand a fence gives a better case but not completely necessary. The land isnt registered, from what i can tell, i've tried the land registry and its not even on their at all. As soon as i can find more details from the secretary I can do some more research but so far am stuck.
I did read somewhere that legally they need to give 12 months notice to evict - so the 6 they are giving us is not enough anyway!
Blue bird... good idea about the church thing... Someone must know something. I can't believe the old boys dont know... some of them are over 70!
Once again i'll keep you posted. Thanks for all your replies.
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I am so sorry to hear that yet another allotment site is being targeted for closure when there are so many folks crying out for them. There used to be a law that came under "right of user" or something like that I think you need to see a sympathetic solicitor. I hope you are able to get things sorted
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OO, really sorry to hear this news, hope everything works out.
If you need a petition to be signed just post it on here.
Don't think I can be any other help, but will ask around to see if OH knows anything about the laws concerning. He works in a conveyancing firm so they might know about legal side of things.
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Ok getting closer guys!
There are no records of the allotments at the parish council, BUT the woman I am searching for was possibly american and was friends with Violet Van der Elst who once owned Harlaxton Manor... this should in theory help in the search as the mystery woman went to live in America in the 1950's. Our allotment is called California Gardens so this should be a clue as to where she was from. Does anyone know of a famous california gardens outside of california in case california is too obvious?
The boys didnt have any info on Adverse property possession so i've printed it off and will post it to them later.
Also - more good news. One lady on the plot is a solicitor and works for enviromental section at Notts so should beable to help us alot!
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Hi OO, only just caught up with this thread. You must be devastated at this news. My q's are like everyone elses. How did the people who want to sell obtain it? The sad thing is when well meaning people leave land or houses for the good of all that they don't put it in any legal form, they just expect their wishes to be carried out. The house we lived in when i had my first child was a rented end terrace, that in 1875 had bee built for cheap rent by the poor, and this tradition had been carried on by the family who owned it up until the last of the old boys died in 2003 and left it to his grandson. He forgot to say in the will though that this should be carried on, and the lad evicted us and moved in.
I hope that you are successful in your search for knowledge and that you win this battle. It seems very unfair you dshould have to do this at all. I would say contact the office of Charlie Boy ( he loves lotties) and your local paper, someone out there has the info you need! Best of luck x
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Hello,
Sorry to hear your news.
Just thinking out loud but,
1, wouldn't the local authority had to have get a change of use for the land to allotments originally, if so that would make it allotment land and you are required to be given 12 months notice, compensation or another allotment site?
2, Silly but why don't you approach the local parish council to secure the land for the group and thus forfilling the stratigic plan to give allotments to that town/area?
3, Does sound like you have some sort of land ownership rites after the 7 year thing!?
Best of luck.
from missie.
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hi OO,
chin up girl and give them hell!!
when you speak to the parish council ( suggest quiet chat with chair and clerk ) point out that they have a duty to provide allotment.
Also speak to your local council ( elections comming up ) and get the planning office and the allotment officer on side.
Or let A4L know when we need to be there with out baseball bats
cambourne7
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We have a plot meeting a week on sunday - so will know more then hopefully! If we lose it i've decided to buy some land anyway to farm... I hope we dont of course but there is only so much we can do to save the plots!
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i would still go with buying the land, as they say the price of gold flutuates. Money only has the value man puts on it if he feels like it but land, land is something man can pin hope, dreams. Land is freedom.
Cant remember where i heard that but i though it was apt...
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The Land Registry aren't playing fair... it would have been registered long before 1875.
Their Solicitors must know who legally owns it if they want to sell it.
Don't get hung up on California Gardens... names like that and New Zealand /Moscow etc were common in the 19thC to mean a long way from anywhere...
Keep your chin up and let us know how things are going... I don't have a baseball bat but have a billhook and chillington hoe both of which can be very dangerous in the wrong hands.. like mine...
:o
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Howdy,
Why don't you contact the local press and make it a news item, it may help get some things moving for you, bring up/out some info that you need?
from missie
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Based on the above:
1. Adverse possession sounds like it will be hard to demonstrate, does the Landlord do anything?
2. Land registration - unless title ownership changes then registration has been unnecessary - compulsory registration has only been a relatively recent event. There are still swathes of the country unregistered.
3. Find out from the Council what use the land is zoned for - e.g. agricultural land or whatever.
4. If you have local elections this year get in touch with all candidates; if not, get in touch with the councillors, MP, etc. I'm sure your plot and their smiling face Will make a great photo in the local press as part of your campaign.
Good luck
OC
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If it dates back to 1875 or older surly the area could be classed as an National Heritage?
What abould asking your local MP, what with the election comming up i'm sure they would try their best if it got all your votes.
Put together a local petition?
Hope you win your case! Good luck
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Just a quick update.... someone has spoken to the oldest (93) resident of the lane and cannot remember the land being given to the residents... so hope is pretty much gone there as no one can remember the womans name.
We have been given the official notice to leave letter and have a big allotment meeting next sunday.
Solicitor is on the case and petitions are being made so watch this space.
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>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
If you want someone to lie down in front of a JCB I'm your gal.
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Hi OO
Chin up all is not lost!
Just a thought but if they are selling it as arable land or whatever - what would be the possibility of you all clubbing together to buy it? I am sure that you would get a loan from some bank or other and you would have to form a company and issue shares but all do-able stuff? If the land isn't being sold for housing then it shouldn't cost too much and when anyone gives up their allotment they sell on their share!
Best of luck though!
Old Bird ;)
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check with planning at your local council as they have to apply for a change of use and planning permission if they want to put up houses.
You can object !!
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Hi - the piece of land is within the towns expansion plan... so although there isnt planning permission to build on it YET and it isnt being sought YET... it is earmarked for prime building land so imagine it would cost a FORTUNE. Also the fields around are earmarked too which would link it all to a large housing estate. 10 acres of land earmarked for development would be well beyond our budget I'm afraid... the thought did cross my mind though LOL.
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Just a thought but why don't you spread a rumour that gypsies are buying the land! I am sure some local wealthy person would suddenly come up with some cash to keep them out and keep you lot on to keep the gypsies out!!
Hope you aren't a Romany! I don't mean to sound racial but they do have a bit of a reputation!
Good Luck
;D
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If any of plot owners are members of a Trade Union and sounds like one may be, they can seek free legal advice for 30 mins through Union. Also write to MP and seek which dept. is now in charge of allotments as the deputy PM dept is now defunct.
This Govt, has for all its sins does have a allotment policy. Also under English Law if no rent has been secured and paid for use of land, that has been maintained then the case of claiming it under common law may be a good one.
If you have been giving notice, who is the undersign notifying officer, he will know of the persons name that he is acting on behave of and it is available under the freedom of information Act. It also is now, as noticed has been issued, a matter of public record so can be obtained through this instrument.
Get the press involved, get a website/blog set up, interview each of the other plot holders, photographs of them, get their stories of there time on the land. Also get local radio involved, commerical and bbc. surprising how many people listen to a radio at work.
Getting organised is half battle, really once you are then you can really fight well. try the countryside alliance as well and see their reaction to this news.
write to Gardeners world, Gardeners questions on radio 4 see if they will highlight it.
Jane Moore of Gardeners world would be a great place for first contact as she did the series the allotment.
good luck and also get a petition going, online one as well.
as well as all suggestions below
CG
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Just to update you as we had our meeting this morning...
We have formed an association - I'm treasurer... and everything else is in hand. We will of course fight this tooth and nail but I can't give anymore details as we can't advertise to the 'otherside' what our moves are.
Looking good though - meeting was excellent and it helps when our Chairperson is a solicitor! ;D
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wish we had a little man with his fingers crossed, go get 'em, everything's crossed here :)
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Keep up the fight Olive.sutton girl
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GO O. ;D ;D ;D
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Thats great Olive, at least you've got things moving. Doom to the 'otherside' and victory to you!!
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Hi Olive how is thing going is their any more progress ?
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http://www.granthamjournal.co.uk/viewarticle.aspx?articleid=2734880§ionid=833
We;re in the paper today!!!! Really good article - dont you think????
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Mmmm. Love local journos don't you? They really know how to get that punchy story. :-X
Still, it's amazing who gets up in arms over this sort of thing once they've read it. Every one hates developers (well, we do here) and no-one wants to see land taken like this.
i'm really rooting for you Olive, glad you've got such a solid team there to fight with you, and a solicitor has to come in handy!!!
POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!
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At least you've got some publicity though OO, you never know how many other planning guru's, solicitors, environmental peeps might see it and offer to join the 'team'. Keeping everything crossed for you x
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Which one's you in the picture OO, death to the developers. :o ;D ;D ;D
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Great article OO. I have just responded to the newspaper as I think we all should,it might make them stay with the story and give some weight to your plight. This another case of might against right, but there are a great many lottie owners and many will back you. Get that petition going, and come on A4A the Grantham newspaper asked for feedback, so let's give them loads.It only takes a minute and they are bound to at least notice there are more people out there that are touched by this than the 60 on the plots. |Come on I challenge you, get you fingers tapping to the Grantham paper.IT IS SOMETHING WE CAN ALL DO AND IT MIGHT JUST HELP OLIVE AND HER PALS XX Jeannine
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I've just sent a short letter - hope it helps. x
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Awww thank you guys - you're all so brilliant :-)
I am wearing black and red skirt and top right in the middle.
My son is holding the sign and daughter holding Twinkletoes - the chicken.
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if what a majority of people are saying that the land could be claimed under common law then ask your chairperson who is the solicitor to make a claim for the land in the name of your allotment association.
inform the papers of what you are doing and this might force the mystery owner to come forward with proof that he is the rightfull owner.
if he does come forward with proof at least you will know who you are up against.
good luck moonbeam
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Olive, I've sent an email to the paper having a gentle rant about the importance to the community of allotment site and the folly of allowing developers free reign over your town, referencing the situation in Bournemouth. 2000 flats built in the past few years. No gardens, tiny kitchens, no green space, all dedicated to car parking.
I hope they stick with the story and support you all. :-*
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I have just had an email from the newspaper inviting me to send my address for confirmation and saying to state if I don't want my response to the article printed. I have sent the addy and said yes please do print my response XX Jeannine
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I've done the same but will they print these letters from outside their area?
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I can't see why not I could comute live there work here. XX Jeannine
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Ooo thats great guys thank you soo much. I am sure the Journal will make a story out of it if they get letters far and wide about our lotty ;D
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Can I jsut say a BIGGGGGGGGGGGGGG thank you to you all.
The Journal came out today and YOUR LETTERS WERE PRINTED!
I dont ahve the paper to hand so can't list you all but will do later.
Thanks again - you are all stars. ;D
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Fame at last ;D ;D & I can't even buy the paper!
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We don't need the fame but is what we said any good do you think , if our answers start a discussion in the paper someone would read it, puplicity is what you need to get the public on your side. XX Jeannihe
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The plot holders have all been saying how amazing it is that all these people from around the country have been writing to the Journal.... I let them in on the secret ;-)
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Forgot to say - if anyone wants a copy pm me and i'll post them to you.
Emma
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Oh wow they printed them - that's brilliant! ;D ;D ;D
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I am glad they printed them too. Hope it helps. :)