Allotments 4 All
General => News => Topic started by: Garden Manager on August 22, 2008, 18:12:01
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Received this weeks copy of amateur Gardening magazine today (subscriber). I was concerned to read in the news section about the EU's plan to ban or restrict the use of the systemic weedkiller component glyphosate in domestic weedkillers.
Now I dont use it myself but I respect people who use it and appreciate that in certain situations it is a nessesary and effective substance. I think the consequences of this ban will be significant for gardens and gardeners. With no decent alternative people will either have to dig out the weeds by hand or face their garens and plots being overrun with pernicious weeds - with some loosing interest i gardening as a result (and more work for the rest of us!). This is very bad news for gardening, not just non organic gardeners.
Your thoughts on this please.
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Yes in certain circumstances it useful.However the guy on the plot next to me is to fond of it and has put it on the dividing path between our plots.
No need for that whatsoever.Grrrrrrrrrrrr.
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the guy on the plot next to me is to fond of it and has put it on the dividing path between our plots.
No need for that whatsoever.Grrrrrrrrrrrr.
That's just absurd. With people like that, and tales on here of people having their plots sprayed by idiots, you can see a case for banning it. It's a very dangerous chemical, and we all know how much damage an idiot can do with it. I'd be all in favour of it being harder to come by - or even not selling it to someone who hasn't read the instructions...
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When the EU decides to ban Glyphosate will we still be able to use any existing stocks of weed killer that we have in our allotment sheds with this banned substance?, I would not like to break any EU regs and would feel really guilty about doing so being a citizen of Europe ;)
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When the EU decides to ban Glyphosate will we still be able to use any existing stocks of weed killer that we have in our allotment sheds with this banned substance?, I would not like to break any EU regs and would feel really guilty about doing so being a citizen of Europe ;)
Haha!!
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Guilt ??? ??? ??? ??? What's that ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
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people will either have to dig out the weeds by hand or face their garens and plots being overrun with pernicious weeds - .
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Frankly I'm delighted it is to be banned. I spend every weekend digging out weeds by hand and am happy in the knowlegde that the food I grow isn't contaminated with chemicals.
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I knew about this & already have a large and lethal supply in my shed...along with 150w light bulbs (so I can see what I'm bloody doing once these get phased out too)
8)
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Erm, I'm normally pretty up-to-date on pesticide regulations changes but haven't heard this one. I wonder where the information is coming from exactly, as there doesn't seem to be anything I can find relating to withdrawal of glyphosate products. Would be grateful for any definite source.
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I have a container of Glyphosate and shall use that up anyway, I think the alternative will be SBK (I haven't seen Glyphosate listed in that).
It's like the banning of creosote, just because some damned fools sprayed it it was banned. I used it for years in the trade with no problems. I knew better than to spray it, it was always brushed. One thing it does which the so-called substitutes don't do is stop woodworm.
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Thanks for the warning GA. I shall be going out and stocking up with supplies.
I do get a bit tired of the EU and its 'bans' on chemicals. Armillatox is a case in point. It has been approved by several British establishments for various uses, but along comes the EU and says 'NO' that it can only be used as a patio furniture wash.
If you go to armillatox.co.uk you will be told that the only use for the substance is to wash down patios and furniture, BUT, if you go to armillatox.com, you will be told all the other uses (that used to be 'legal' in the UK), and for which I still use it.
valmarg
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Hasn't this got something to do with non-hodgkins lymphoma? Water contamination is also an issue. No doubt these things are hotly denied but all these interests are vested and one of the hottest deniers will be Monsanto. I have zero faith in them and others like them.
There's always an alternative - use your brain, garden in ways you don't have to use this stuff. It can be done. If people think they can get perfection without at least some time and effort they're deluded anyway, so let them give up the land to someone who will try hard.
I don't mean to slate people who use chemicals I just like doing things the hard way, like every good hippy. We will win in the end. I don't see how the EU is worse than any other government but that's political argument innit.
And more work for the rest of us sounds good to me, as long as it's paid.
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I am glad when they ban it. Since without it the the weak and uncommitted gardeners with be removed from the allotments sites. Then only those with true garden ethic will be left leaving more plots for those with real commitment to good gardening. Digging is a wasteful way killing weeds. the hoe,the scythe, machete,weed cloth,solarization and Hort vinegar is the key to killing unwanted weeds.
Now gardeners will have to do the work instead poisoning the ground.
The secret to keeping weeds in check is hoe often, don't let them get out of hand,the smaller they are easier they are to kill and the most important is weed a portion of the garden every day 1/7 of the plot a day or more without fail.
If the ground is not in use cover it with weed cloth or a heavy tarp. why weed when you don't have to.
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Hort vinegar?
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the most important is weed a portion of the garden every day 1/7 of the plot a day or more without fail.
Yeah, right! Wonder how many of us manage that ;)
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Hi Ishard,
Dont know what ' Hort ' vinegar is, but vinegar is used in parts of America - mixed with oils, to rid crops of broad leaved weeds. It is not approved of by the EU - as yet, so no commercial products are available.
Vinegar does work as a ' weed killer ' , it was used years ago as a ' kitchen cupboard ' remedy.
Our shop bought strengh is only 5% - not particularly strong enough me thinks.
Would be glad to hear of any other info from A4A on the subject.
I did google ' organic weedkiller ' and got sites mostly about vinegar which was interesting.
Also had a chat with another site - who pointed out that there can still be adverse effects from using
vinegar, some unknown - as the effects on earthworms for example
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Thanks Flossie :)
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I am glad when they ban it. Since without it the the weak and uncommitted gardeners with be removed from the allotments sites. Then only those with true garden ethic will be left leaving more plots for those with real commitment to good gardening. Digging is a wasteful way killing weeds. the hoe,the scythe, machete,weed cloth,solarization and Hort vinegar is the key to killing unwanted weeds.
Now gardeners will have to do the work instead poisoning the ground.
The secret to keeping weeds in check is hoe often, don't let them get out of hand,the smaller they are easier they are to kill and the most important is weed a portion of the garden every day 1/7 of the plot a day or more without fail.
If the ground is not in use cover it with weed cloth or a heavy tarp. why weed when you don't have to.
What a load of b0ll0cks!
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I am glad when they ban it. Since without it the the weak and uncommitted gardeners with be removed from the allotments sites. Then only those with true garden ethic will be left leaving more plots for those with real commitment to good gardening.
I am committed to my plot but there are still times when I may require to use the odd chemical and I have no qualms about this if the I feel the need arises. Some of us do work 50hours + per week and have to work away from home occasionally. Balancing full time work with family and allotment - just how does that make all of us who use chemicals weaker than those who do not?! I most certainly am not a weak and uncommitted gardener thankyou very much.
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the most important is weed a portion of the garden every day 1/7 of the plot a day or more without fail.
Yeah, right! Wonder how many of us manage that ;)
Not me, with the shifts i work sometimes i can go Severn day without putting a foot on my plot and like Ktlawson i bloody well am not uncommitted,so i second the reply by Ace.
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the most important is weed a portion of the garden every day 1/7 of the plot a day or more without fail.
Yeah, right! Wonder how many of us manage that ;)
Not me, with the shifts i work sometimes i can go Severn day without putting a foot on my plot and like Ktlawson i bloody well am not uncommitted,so i second the reply by Ace.
Yup, Ace is spot on!
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I've had a rummage through the www, and can only find something from 2003 where Danish water was contaminated with roundup at surprisingly high levels...
As Jenny mentioned earlier, is there any chance we can get a bit of provenance on this story?
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Ollie....poss a mention that it was in the pipeline on Radio4 GQT? Guessing here, but I don't have tele - and I DO listen to Radio 4 a lot ;D
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OllieC i manage to weed more then 1/7 a day but I have very few weeds by design in my garden. All the paths are lined with weed cloth and all beds are raised with loose soil filling them.
all this makes weeding easy.
My garden has been chem free by design and never needed this type weed killer.
But those who wish poison the soil will learn the lesson to late.
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TGG.....if this ban comes into force, it will affect ALL peeps living in the UK - and I'd suggest that lottie holders, etc. are in the minority here?
Many of my clients have paved (at least 4 sides to their paving slabs with weeds growing in between one and another) areas, gravel paths, drives etc. and ALL my clients are on pensions....yes, I and others of my team COULD hand-weed ad infinitum/nauseum for them - but would they/could they pay?
And so I stockpiled glyphosate to use on their barren concrete patches..
You/I may not like their use of their bit of England/wherever but I'll defend their right to do whatever with their patch.
If it was GQT I heard this on, it was the same programme on which I first heard of the legal limited use of Armillatox and also the legal limited use of salt, under EEC regulations?
And you know what?....I still regularly 'treat' dandelions etc with salt & wash my greenhouse with Armillatox, etc....
And I don't give a tinker's.... ::) ;D
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But those who wish poison the soil will learn the lesson to late.
It does not poison the soil, it is neutralised by soil and if anybody was daft enough to drink it, a spoonful of soil is the antidote. It has been suggested that it inhibites nitrogen. But that can be replaced easily enough by digging your beanstalks in.
Now weed suppression fabric is another thing. Having had to remove loads from a garden once, underneath was the equivilant to a stagnant dessert. Underneath gravel drives, paths, etc is alright. But it is being used incorrectly by lazy gardeners who really should find out the facts before using it and preaching to others who use a safer method.
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ace there are several types of weed fabric. the water permeable type is the best to use in garden.
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I use glyphosate from time to time and have no qualms about using it. I suspect this is a rumour leading to another price rise.
Just because I am a gardener doesn`t mean I cannot be a cynic ;)
btw-Hi Lishka xx
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ace there are several types of weed fabric. the water permeable type is the best to use in garden.
I don't think you really wanted to say that ;)
(http://www.rockchickenentertainmentagency.co.uk/images/Celeb%20look%20a%20likes/Harry%20Enfield_small.jpg)
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I think the use of chemicals depends on what you are growing, whether ornamental or edible.
The only chemicals we use on food crops is blood, fish and bone, and tomato feed.
On the other hand on ornamentals we are prepared to use more chemicals. An example is Armillatox, It was approved by the University of Wales, Bangor for use as a soil sterilant against vine weevil eggs, I grow a lot of fuchsias, and vine weevils are the bain of their existence, so I will continue to use it to control vine weevil eggs.
The division between edible and ornamental is front and back garden, so it is unlikely that cross contamination can occur.
Also, as we are getting older, the weeds are starting to get the better of us in both areas. ;D
valmarg
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It does not poison the soil, it is neutralised by soil and if anybody was daft enough to drink it, a spoonful of soil is the antidote. It has been suggested that it inhibites nitrogen. But that can be replaced easily enough by digging your beanstalks in.
It is neutralised by soil but if you use a lot of it in the same place it does leave some detectable residue so some are arguing that until the residue is studied etc etc. A bit like the way they proved dope (apparently very different to the stufff that is sold now) was harmful back in the 70s - they gave mice doses big enough to incapacitate a human and they died.
But why would you keep using it in the same place over and over again?
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I was in our local stockists today and bought a litre of Glyphosate, the storeman said it is to be banned. So it looks to be right.
I cab remember that farmers used to spray sulphuric acid (diluted) on potato haulm to kill it before harvesting. I expect there will be a black market in old car batteries, for the sulphuric acid as well as the scrap lead. Of course, there are other things, like paraffin (kills many weeds but not thistles, groundsel and a few others.
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There's always the 12-bore like the one Clarkson used on Top Ground Gear Force.
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I've had a rummage through the www, and can only find something from 2003 where Danish water was contaminated with roundup at surprisingly high levels...
As Jenny mentioned earlier, is there any chance we can get a bit of provenance on this story?
Sorry, did I mention this? Can someone please point me to the story? It's strange that there's no mention anywhere on the www...
O x
Lish, I'm a R4 junky just like you (apart from when I try digital R7) and I even thought I remembered something about this; but I can't find anything anywhere... Do you listen to the radio in bed too?!?!
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If you mean the story about the ban I can't help you but if you mean stories about glyphosate problems they're not hard to find. Google glyphosate and lymphoma for example. I don't know what's true but it amuses me how people can kick up so much over amilopyralid and think glyphosate is wonderful. Paving with weeds in? Point it.
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OllieC you can find a source of the info by reading the magazine article cited by the original poster.
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jjt.....my clients are all tenants and aren't allowed to hard-cover large areas of their garden (which pointing in between paving slabs would do, according to the landlords..They Who Must be Obeyed...heavens, one must get planning permission (at a cost) for a greenhouse, even a titchy 6x4 one).
Ollie! My bedtime habits?? And you a spectable married man an me a widderwoman penshner? Shame on you ::)
Do they still have the old-format early Sunday morning Farming Today with large breakfasts round the farmhouse table? It's been ages since I've been awake that early to check, and I spose you listen to TA - for the farming content, natch?
And hello Steph! (smiley winky blowing kisses thingy)..hope that you've recovered from your injury and that it's a profitable year for you? And hey! Bought myself my Very Own Apache seeds at the Wyvale Sale....can I (finally) repay your kindnesses over the years and send you a packet? For 50p....you're worth it! ;)
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Alishka M, that's one bizarre rule you got there. Must be from the EU?
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OllieC you can find a source of the info by reading the magazine article cited by the original poster.
I still reckon it's Borlicks. Not everything you read is true - I should know!!!
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OllieC i manage to weed more then 1/7 a day but I have very few weeds by design in my garden. All the paths are lined with weed cloth and all beds are raised with loose soil filling them.
all this makes weeding easy.
My garden has been chem free by design and never needed this type weed killer.
But those who wish poison the soil will learn the lesson to late.
I thought glyphosate became inactive when it touched the soil so how can it poison the soil if it does this?
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I thought glyphosate became inactive when it touched the soil so how can it poison the soil if it does this?
Well this might not be true like other things commonly claimed in every day life.
When the ban comes into force there will be more detailed info on the subject about why it was banned.
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I was under the impression that all claims made on products were strictly governed by the Pesticide Safety Directive and therefore must be legally accurate :P
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I agree 24Hr Gardener, all products are governed by a very strict Pesticide Safety Directorate. They certainly cannot put things on the product labels which are not true, Glyphosate - if used in accordance with the labels will do no harm. The problem is when people are too bone idol to dispose of any left over or un used chemical properly! Just chuck it down the drain! Why not... after all it will probably just end up as tap water...... which we drink and brush our teeth using!! If only people could be a bit more sensible, then we could all be trusted to use products properly. So if you have ever rinsed out your watering-can after using a chemical, and chucked the washings down the drain or used a weedkiller on your patio and just sloshed it about letting it go down the soak away or drain - -- Thank you for making the art of having a beautiful weed free garden even harder than it need be. :'(
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They must have lost all the original findings if they need to test the residue again. This was done as I remember reading about it on a paper that was sent to me when I used to spray for a living.
I can understand them getting windy about unlicenced users which means the majority of you who are using the stuff quite legally at the moment. We would have to work out the dose per acre which depended on the type of weed, then record it with the weather information for the day, the date it was sprayed, how it was applied. In fact sometimes it took longer on the paperwork than it did doing the job.
Before I applied any herbicide/pesticide to any area I had to check if it had been done before in the last 5 years and what it was done with, because some of the older banned substances caused a lot of problems if there was a residue and the new stuff came in contact with it.
I was trained to a very high standard. High enough to train other people, so I am not speculating like tgg. Who I notice is trained in the art of membrane laying and raised beds. Not a real gardener in my eyes.
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ace I am not speculating just referring to post on the bbc boards on subject and study on subject.
DDt was thought to be safe too but this was later found to be wrong.
Until the ban is formally announced we will not really understand reason behind it.
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Are you sure that it is not GM glyphosate resistant crops that the EU is banning?
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kea GMO glyphosate resistant crops are already banned in EU as all GMO's are.
But if they ban glyphosate it is back door way to prevent GMO glyphosate resistant crops from becoming legal after the ban on GMO's is lifted.
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We've had people on the site whose idea of gardening was to spray everything with glyphosate, plant, and leave it for a few years till they got round to spraying again. There were allotments before it was invented, there will be allotments long after it's gone.
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Wilkies are selling their glyphosphate at half price today. Not saying wether or not I got some cos it may start a riot.
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The only reference I can find is a European Commission report on Glyphosate published 2002. It is long, complex and technical with much reference to EU directives, but essentially gives the chemical a clean bill of health (10% chance of mortality if you drink it neat!), but frequently stresses that any controls would be a matter for member states to legislate.
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Wow i didnt realise I was starting such a debate when I posted this little bit of news.
I sit (quite comfortably) on the fence on this issue. I respect those who use glyposate products as long as it is done safely and properly. I personaly only use it as a last resort. Quite franky whilst it is a labour saving way to remove weeds it isnt the quickest method. When you dig weeds out you can see the weed free results, wheras with weedkiller the weeds remain for a long time even after spraying. Even once the weeds are dead the corpses still have to be removed. So give me hand weeding any day. Far more satisfying IMO. Assuming you have the time, strength and good enough health to do it that is!
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http://deadsmall.com/3TU
This is the report from the UK Pesticides Safety Directorate on the proposed law to ban things like endochrine disruptors.
It seems the law may be changed from risks of residual levels in crops to banning any chemical which has certain health hazards regardless of exposure.
The EU also want to add extra things onto the legislation.
It appears glyphosate is on the list of chemicals that have a 5yr window in which to be substituted for alternative products before being banned - if the law is approved.
The real effects will be on commercial agriculture as the majority of current pest/weed controls look to be banned.
(I only joined this site to post this one message as I'm usually over on allotment.org.uk)
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Welcome to A4A, cootuk - we are an amenable bunch :) :) :) :)
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Well I know what I will do, I will not use any chemicles what so ever where ever I can, but my concern is that my lotty is on a slope, my neighber use all the chemicles he can get is hands on, I am trying to do the right thing but all his chemicles are draining down to mine, well if I used them I would be getting double or tripple the dose, we mess about with nature too much i think.
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wats all the fuss get your spades out and get cracking as you all should know thers no easy way
dig for victory
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http://deadsmall.com/3TU
This is the report from the UK Pesticides Safety Directorate on the proposed law to ban things like endochrine disruptors.
It seems the law may be changed from risks of residual levels in crops to banning any chemical which has certain health hazards regardless of exposure.
The EU also want to add extra things onto the legislation.
It appears glyphosate is on the list of chemicals that have a 5yr window in which to be substituted for alternative products before being banned - if the law is approved.
The real effects will be on commercial agriculture as the majority of current pest/weed controls look to be banned.
(I only joined this site to post this one message as I'm usually over on allotment.org.uk)
That is extremely helpful - thank you.
Glyphosate is on the least likely to be banned list, so I'm not going to start hoarding it yet!
For those luddites who think that banning any "nasty chemicals" can only be a good thing, there's obviously a serious concern about the economic future of carrots, parsnips, and onions in British agriculture.
Still, Grimmway Farms in California and the like will be only too happy to supply, eh?
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I'd say there's a serious concern over the economic future of British agriculture full stop. Or indeed British anything. Uncle Sam ain't laughing either, he's catching a cold.
Better a luddite than a blindly optimistic capitalist. Sorry to go off topic.
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The only reference I can find is a European Commission report on Glyphosate published 2002. It is long, complex and technical with much reference to EU directives, but essentially gives the chemical a clean bill of health (10% chance of mortality if you drink it neat!), but frequently stresses that any controls would be a matter for member states to legislate.
They should ban diquat before they even think about banning glyphosate, it is many times more dangerous.