Allotments 4 All
General => News => Topic started by: adam04 on September 03, 2005, 20:32:10
-
just thought i would use the poll that was on sky news through the week? think they might of been getting desperate???
-
>:(
You cannot be serious!!!!
-
Is watching Sky News ok??
-
desperate situations call for desperate measures.
we dont know what we would do given the circumstance.
throwing the first stone, and all that.
-
am serious was a poll on sky news in the week, think it was bank holiday monday actually!
-
If my child had gone without water for days, and no help had arrived or seemed on its way, then I wouldn't hesitate to break into a hop to get her some water, hell the stock will all be claimed on insurance as damaged anyway.
-
Its not okay, but bush ignoring them is even worse. They are the poorest, blackest citizens and bush would love to lose a few, as theyre not stupid enough to vote for him, so he has been as slow as possible in assistance >:( . If it was NY or Washighton evacuation would have happened days earlier and theyd already be making repairs.
-
Either looting was hampering relief efforts, or lack of relief efforts was causing looting.
I suspect Bush and co. went for the 'blame the victim' option while they decided how little help they could get away with giving...
I think the whole Katrina fiasco just goes to show there is only one super-power: nature.
-
Bush - nuff said
It is absolutely disgusting for the authorities to operate a shoot to kill policy on looters when it is those self same authorities that are denying aid for as long as they can possibly get away with it because their natural voters all managed to get out on time - they only lost their yahts which I see CNN was very concerned about in the early days before the New York Times spoke out - by the way that was the 'can't get away with this anymore catalyst. And yes I do think it was wilful on the Bush regime's part.
-
I think the whole Katrina fiasco just goes to show there is only one super-power: nature.
Sure has put them America their place hasn't it! if Bush hadn't spent so much money on the Iraq war then maybe the vital work on the flood defences may have been done.
I know it is an absolute tradgedy and I do not mean to be cold by saying this..... but if the hurricane had hit the coast of Africa or India (i.e. 3rd world) would it be getting as much media coverage?? Natural disasters on this scale happen every year and they are minor news items.
To have a poll on sky news about whether looting is bad I find quite sad, I assume you maybe rang in the show to vote etc... I hope the proceeds went to the Red Cross. (I don't mean on here though as Adam will not be profiting from our answers!)
-
I think looting depends on the circumstances. If you're starving and steal food, say, that's OK in my book, and many people must have been reduced to that sort of situation. What I don't find any excuse for is the situation we had in Handsworth some years ago; I think it was 1993. There was an arson attack on a factory, and power to a substation next to it had to be cut off temporarily. A section of Birmingham was plunged into darkness, and people from all over the West Midlands descended in cars and vans and systematically looted every single shop, even the butcher and the shoe shop. I was in the middle of it and saw everything; the police just watched. Nobody hungry there, but NO is a different matter. Not that I find much excuse for the people who took TV's and the like.
-
quite - you will not find much sustinence in a TV.
i certainly agree with the food and water bit, if push comes to shove, most would do the same
-
No, looting for profit, no way!
Looting to save your childs life, yes.
-
No, looting for profit, no way!
Looting to save your childs life, yes.
Agree wholeheartedly.
And the biggest looting, smash and grab for profit in history? Bush & Blair in Iraq...bang 'em up!
-
Dunno, even that pales into insignificance beside some of the Roman efforts; Crassus took about 62 tons of gold from the Jerusalem Temple on his way to disaster in Persia, and Caesar looted so much wealth from Gaul that the only way to stop him afterwards was to kill him. I don't know what the European powers took from their empires, but it must be astronomical. If you look at post-colonial history though, I agree you won't find a parallel.
-
You're right RB.
But I think in the post-colonial period there is a framework of international law which was absent in the examples you cite. The Iraq war broke this law and was, therefore, an illegal grabbing of another's property. Hence the parallel with looting...
-
That's true; while international law certainly existed by Napoleonic times, it only applied to 'civilised' nations, and to restricted areas like the treatment of prisoners. By Victorian times, atrocities like the regular massacres of wounded during the Zulu war of 1879 horrified many people in England, but the military could afford to ignore this. To this day, international law still doesn't protect weak nations against exploitative trade barriers and the like.
-
Anyone heard Barbara Bush's comments? "So many of the people here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this is working very well for them." What an insensitive cow. I cannot beleive that any members of this awful family have been given so much power. It makes you think- Bush's grandad was chummy with the nazis, his mother making these comments and his inactivity- they are clearly racist snobs. Bush deserves a murder charge- he has treated innocent human beings like low value property.
-
he has treated innocent human beings like low value property.
Outrageous suggestion ROTM - I'm sure he treats his low value property with much more respect...
-
Hi all,
I am one of the lurkers that live in another part of the world very similar in weather to yours, in Northwest Washington State in the USA. I have learned so much from you and your site, its amazing. I just had a 10 kilo harvest from my White Lady runner beans, just four poles. And I have you all to thank.
My rant:
-----------------------------------
One thing about this whole New Orleans/Hurricane Katrina thing.
I am one of a growing number of Americans that believe that the lack of response by federal authorities to the flooding victims was deliberate. You see, the feds cut state and local communication lines, barred anyone from entering or leaving New Orleans and turned away any and all aid coming to the city. I think it was meant to kill. Why is the question.
Those who looted had little choice but to take what they could to feed themselves and their families. Those who took tvs, etc. had nowhere to sell them. It was an irrational act in a time of stress. Most were frightened that if they had been allowed to leave, they would never have been allowed back into their homes or to the property they owned ever again. And they were right. Watch what you see and hear with a jaundiced eye, please.
We, in the US, are at the mercy of a ruthless group of men bent on gaining power in any way they can. Even if it means killing innocent people.
---------------------
Rant over...
I don't know what the death of a city means to us or to the world.
I only know my garden is a lush, quiet, abundant paradise into which I can immerse myself and forget the starvation, death and disease that plagues other parts of my country at the moment.
Peace to everyone,
peg
-
Hi Peg,
I like many others in the UK have been watching the reports on the devastation in New Orleans. :(
I find it difficult to believe that with all the resources that your Country has at its disposal help was not forthcoming with immediate effect. ???
I think your reasoning is spot on because one vital piece of information slipped through the information embargo. ;)
The officer in charge of the rescue helicopters was quoted as saying that his people could have been there in 6 hours but they were not allowed to go in because of red tape. >:(
And anyone with half a brain knows that the only reason George W has his troops in Iraq is because of the massive oil reserves. ::)
that's my rant over Peg. ;D
On a lighter note glad you enjoy the A4A site, since joining I don't have time for any other internet browsing.
PREMTAL :)
-
The first pictures i saw on tv of this disaster were a large group of black people who looked as if they did not have much to lose anyway. My first thought was that Bush did not care cos they would not vote for him anyway. That seemed so outrageous that I dismissed the thought from my mind.
My first thought was right.
-
The fact that someone 'doesn't have much to lose' doesn't make them any less traumatised than the rich! I don't think the poll is really a straight yes or no question; it depends what's being taken and what the circumstances are. If someone's hungry and they steal food, or they can't get clean water so they steal bottled, or they have to break in somewhere to get medication they need, that's OK by me. But just going and stealing isn't.
-
It is nice to hear a sane US voice. I think the rest of the world was incredulous when Bush was voted back in (I was when he was voted in in the first place). We just thought how can America not see what we see? But then again our own PM is pretty blind in that respect.
-
He wasn't voted in the first time, don't forget. I couldn't believe the second either. As for Blair, he took over one party then adopted the policies of the other. I left the Labour Party soon afterwards as I wasn't willing to be part of that.
-
My initial reaction is that looting is theft and therefore wrong - even if the thing being taken are to be claimed under insurance.
Having given it some more thought I still think that it is wrong but have qualified it as follows: In the absence of food/water the looting of these things (food water) is at least understandable, but why nick a sound system (or anyting else) that isn't actually needed to survive - that is still wrong. We are people who should have higher standards! - even animals don't get bogged down with such possessions.
-- Alan
-
It's been two weeks since we lost New Orleans.
Residents are beginning to return, even though armed groups roam their neighborhoods. The rich of NO have hired private contractors, namely Blackwater who became infamous in Iraq, to patrol their businesses and property. Lots of automatic weapons are seen. The cops have begun taking away private citizens guns... which has everyone upset since it's their only defense against any further looting, rapes, etc. Some of the stories coming out are horrendous. Police deputies from the white areas are known to have stood on bridges leading from the worst flooded areas and forced black residents back into the water at gunpoint to protect their towns from those fleeing, causing more deaths. Some folks in hospitals were euthanized if the staff felt they wouldnt survive the flooding or being moved. FEMA, our national disaster relief agency, cut the communications conduits between police, firemen and rescue teams. The police had to reconnect the lines and put up armed guards to keep FEMA from doing it again. FEMA confiscated medical supplies going to hospitals, god knows what they did with them forcing hospitals to truck their supplies 150 miles away so they could be brought to the hospital by helicopters which FEMA couldnt interfere with.
Many, many people were left behind to die horribly even a week after the levees were topped. When the news says the levees were breached, it's because the levee system was never finished. Bush reduced the money alloted to the Army Corp of Engineers, who has sole and total eminence over the Mississippi River and its environs, at least 80%. He knew the storm would destroy the city... he was told so a few days prior to landfall. We have photos of him being briefed in Crawford, Tx. Most of the National Guard that would have taken the edge off the suffering, as well as the high water machinery that should have stayed locally, is and are now in Iraq. Any defense that New Orleans and environs had was gutted prior to the storm. There are some who say that someone dynamited the levee on the poor side to save their own property and used too much dynamite according to someone living nearby.
The stories of looting were exaggerated, God knows why. There were thousands who helped each other survive, to evacuate safely and to find food, water however they could. If a white was seen stealing from a store, it was "finding" and they were allowed to go on their way. If it was a black, it was "looting" and in many instances they were shot and killed on the spot. White armed militias roamed the "projects" (read black enclaves) murdering whomever they saw. I am of the opinion the bodies left to rot on the streets were murdered and the govt is waiting to collect them til after they are beyond recognition to avoid wide spread discontent (read rioting). Two weeks... and there have only been 700 bodies collected of hundreds.
Among the refugees, many are dying from the stress of the evacuation. 54 have died in Houston alone. We will never know how many casualties there were during the flooding or thereafter. Just as body counts arent kept of those who have died in Iraq, the govt won't be counting these either.
In my honest opinion I think federal officials were deliberately sabotaging any attempts by state and local officials to save their people. Cheney (our vice president) demanded that electrical companies repair the feeder lines to the oil and gas pipelines before they repair those going to hospitals or pumps. It's a good bet the fact that both the mayor and governor were Democrats had more to do with their being ignored than anyone is comfortable with. Originally right after the Republicans took control of the Senate and Congress, any money going to a Democratic district was cut. That included flood control, evacuation plans, emergency monies, etc. And now the vultures are circling and trying to buy up any and all property in the flooded areas. Insurance companies are considering not paying out since the flooding was manmade and not an act of God.
It's really freaking depressing... and it's the country I immigrated to and am now considering leaving. The 24th we are planning mass demonstrations across the country that I will also be participating in. America has become a blot on the planet and we intend to take our country back...
Beyond that, the garden is winding down.
And I am looking at my winter garden and thinking of what to do next.
Ahhh decisions, decisions.
Peg
-
i have an inside contact in NO - a man who helped his elderly neighbours who were totally ignored by police/rescuers - he waded through chest deep water to bring water and food. as a thanks, the police kicked in his front door, and looters stole everything he owned - well almost everything. he was close to the french quarter though and networked with friends. he managed to save his carpenter's tools and they are back in NO after a brief stint in baton rouge, to start fixing up the place. it's very bad there, he says. there is a 6pm curfew, and they are working in safety by numbers. i.e. the guys dont go around on their own.
i cant say anymore about the whole sad affair because i would probably cry. good to hear that some grass roots politics are being reawakened by this though - it is sad but good also that this will finally mobilise people into looking at what the government is doing in and to their country!
-
NO was set up for it, probably by the damned arrogance of politicians who thought they could get away with it for their term of office.
PS I mean damned in the full original meaning of the word.
-
Its strange isn't it, that at the same time as there are folk to show so much compassion and love for their neighbours (regardless of race, religion, age or sex) there are others who debase themselves so thoroughly - and I don't necessarily mean looters!
On the one hand I am saddened to witness the things these excuses for civilised citizens get up to but am heartened to see the expressions of love that complete strangers have for one another - there really is hope for us all - but I doubt if its going to come from a politician.
-- Alan