Allotments 4 All
Produce => Edible Plants => Topic started by: davholla on January 15, 2019, 13:11:14
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Sorry for so many questions
1) I have a family tree (M26) (Jupiter, Jester and Fiesta) also a Balerina (Bolero - wonderful taste) and 2 M27 Ashmead's Kernel and Pixie.
Are these are spur or tip bearers? Would most people prune these? If so when summer and winter? I don't want them to grow bigger (apart from one of the M27's).
2) Is it possible to store apples inside this year I left 2 bags in the shed and a rat got them!!!
3) Any tips for picking apples from the highest branches - the tree is not strong enough to lean a ladder against it
4) Has anyone tried the super columnar from Chris Bowers? Are they any good? Do they really need that much space as they say?
https://www.chrisbowers.co.uk/guides/apple-trees.php#supercolumn
5) A bit broke of the M27 and I put it a pot to see if it will root any thoughts on this idea?
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Can answer the first, they are all spur bearing types.
I do early winter pruning on ours. Summer pruning makes them produce lots of 'water shoots'.
Apples are best stored cool and dark. Rats got at ours which when you are talking of over 1 hundredweight of apples is a lot to lose.
You can but long handled fruit picking gadgets.
No idea.
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Can answer the first, they are all spur bearing types.
I do early winter pruning on ours. Summer pruning makes them produce lots of 'water shoots'.
Apples are best stored cool and dark. Rats got at ours which when you are talking of over 1 hundredweight of apples is a lot to lose.
You can but long handled fruit picking gadgets.
No idea.
Thank you. Sorry to hear about your apple loss, what will you do to store them in future? Or are you like me thinking about it?
About pruning is it something that must be done or is not needed?
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Quick response to item 5.
This is unlikely to work. The bit that broke off is the scion wood, so will no longer be on a dwarfing rootstock. If it does develop its own roots (possible though unlikely) there is no way to tell how big the tree will grow as it matures (it might be small, it might be huge) or if the roots will be weak or vigorous. And if it does grow the number of years it will take to start fruiting is also an unknown.
Of course, you could see this as a fun experiment. Just wanted to manage your expectations. On the plus side, if it grows it should fruit true to the original scion wood. Sometimes it is enjoyable just to try these things, provided you don't have unrealistic expectations.
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Since we are moving to a property with no fruit trees, storing the apples in future is not needed. If we were stopping here then I would have to find somewhere where the rodents could not get at them. They ate their way through a wooden floor to gain access to them.
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Quick response to item 5.
This is unlikely to work. The bit that broke off is the scion wood, so will no longer be on a dwarfing rootstock. If it does develop its own roots (possible though unlikely) there is no way to tell how big the tree will grow as it matures (it might be small, it might be huge) or if the roots will be weak or vigorous. And if it does grow the number of years it will take to start fruiting is also an unknown.
Of course, you could see this as a fun experiment. Just wanted to manage your expectations. On the plus side, if it grows it should fruit true to the original scion wood. Sometimes it is enjoyable just to try these things, provided you don't have unrealistic expectations.
It is more of a fun experiment than thinking I will get a tree - to be honest I have nowhere to put it.
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M26 is a much more vigorous rootstock than M27.
M27 is very dwarfing, and even a mature tree will probably never exceed 6 feet in height. M26 is still described as dwarfing, but when fully grown may reach 12 feet tall.
As for pruning, remember that it is certainly necessary for a very young tree as this is the period when you are creating the basic framework. This lasts for about four years. This pruning can be fairly severe as it stimulates growth. After this period as the tree becomes more mature, you prune to maintain fruiting, keeping the tree open and healthy. This pruning is usually much less severe. But as a minimum you must prune out any dead or diseased wood, and remove wood that is crossing and growth that overcrowds the centre.
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ut as a minimum you must prune out any dead or diseased wood, and remove wood that is crossing and growth that overcrowds the centre.
When should I do this winter or summer? Or does it depend on whether I want to stimulate growth or not?
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Quick response to item 5.
This is unlikely to work. The bit that broke off is the scion wood, so will no longer be on a dwarfing rootstock. If it does develop its own roots (possible though unlikely) there is no way to tell how big the tree will grow as it matures (it might be small, it might be huge) or if the roots will be weak or vigorous. And if it does grow the number of years it will take to start fruiting is also an unknown.
Of course, you could see this as a fun experiment. Just wanted to manage your expectations. On the plus side, if it grows it should fruit true to the original scion wood. Sometimes it is enjoyable just to try these things, provided you don't have unrealistic expectations.
It is more of a fun experiment than thinking I will get a tree - to be honest I have nowhere to put it.
I like that. It is fun to try something different. I have three lovely roses at one end of my allotment, grown from cuttings, or to be honest prunings that I stuck into some compost and crossed my fingers. (Some you win).
On the other hand I have grown three apple trees from pips in the hope I would discover a new unique, great tasting variety. If anything seemed promising, I planned to graft it onto M9 and have my very own apple. Vain hope, I produced nothing but assorted crab apples. (Some you lose).
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ut as a minimum you must prune out any dead or diseased wood, and remove wood that is crossing and growth that overcrowds the centre.
When should I do this winter or summer? Or does it depend on whether I want to stimulate growth or not?
For ordinary apple trees grown as standards or bushes prune in winter. Summer pruning is a technique usually employed for restricted shapes like fans, espalliers, and step overs. I don't grow any of these so cannot advise further. Others may have more advice.
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And finally,
I followed your link to the Chris Bowers super column web page. And it left me puzzled. The columns are available for many standard varieties, so they must be grafted onto a rootstock but it does not say which.
So it could be a special rootstock that produces the column shape, or it could be a standard rootstock with the column growth produced by the pruning regimen. Nowhere could I see any information to clarify this.
If the former the tree may largely "look after itself", but if the latter it might require careful pruning to retain the column shape.
I'd be wary and not buy until I had more information.
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Since we are moving to a property with no fruit trees, storing the apples in future is not needed. If we were stopping here then I would have to find somewhere where the rodents could not get at them. They ate their way through a wooden floor to gain access to them.
I always despair when I see beginners clear out the sheds they inherit - nearly everyone who has been at this for decades will have a range of tin boxes to protect seeds and fruits from rats.
I tried & failed to persuade a nearby plot against throwing away a slightly rusty steel filing cabinet - they are perfect for storing apples in a shed - leave the drawers open until the colder weather but close them before the rats arrive. There should be enough ventilation for the colder periods but it's also easy to jam the drawer not quite shut - a gap the width of a biro won't let rats in.
I didn't need the cabinet myself because I have the old stainless steel container (& lid) of an ancient upright washing machine in my shed (and an old fridge in my back garden for beets etc.). I also use old galvanised cold water tanks as ratproof compost heaps.
I'm confident the beginners will regret chucking that cabinet.
Cheers.
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Interestingly this has been discussed before
Apparently they have been selling these for 10 years but I can't find a single positive or negative review on line
https://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=79595.0
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I tried & failed to persuade a nearby plot against throwing away a slightly rusty steel filing cabinet - they are perfect for storing apples in a shed - leave the drawers open until the colder weather but close them before the rats arrive. There should be enough ventilation for the colder periods but it's also easy to jam the drawer not quite shut - a gap the width of a biro won't let rats in.
I didn't need the cabinet myself because I have the old stainless steel container (& lid) of an ancient upright washing machine in my shed (and an old fridge in my back garden for beets etc.). I also use old galvanised cold water tanks as ratproof compost heaps.
I think it was Bob Flowerdew who suggested using defunct fridges and especially freezers for storing apples in garages without vermin access. :wave:
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I think it was Bob Flowerdew who suggested using defunct fridges and especially freezers for storing apples in garages without vermin access. :wave:
I did use my spare fridge in the garage a few times. I had it on until the average temperatures got near fridge temperature and then left it off for the rest of the winter (otherwise it freezes up!). It worked OK but I noticed mould appeared in there when I stopped opening the door for a few days ('cos I ate the best varieties first) - I'd recommend wedging & fixing the door slightly open as soon as you turn it off.
Old fridges outdoors are excellent as clamps for roots as the humidity is a bonus, but for fruit it would be tricky to crack the door without rain getting in.
Cheers.
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I think it was Bob Flowerdew who suggested using defunct fridges and especially freezers for storing apples in garages without vermin access. :wave:
I did use my spare fridge in the garage a few times. I had it on until the average temperatures got near fridge temperature and then left it off for the rest of the winter (otherwise it freezes up!). It worked OK but I noticed mould appeared in there when I stopped opening the door for a few days ('cos I ate the best varieties first) - I'd recommend wedging & fixing the door slightly open as soon as you turn it off.
Old fridges outdoors are excellent as clamps for roots as the humidity is a bonus, but for fruit it would be tricky to crack the door without rain getting in.
Cheers.
Yes but most modern fridges have the back made of insulation, possibly within a plastic panel. Easy to drill a few holes and cover with a cheap louvre air vent, such as this:
https://www.diy.com/departments/map-vent-adjustable-vent/34930_BQ.prd
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Fortunately or unfortunately I don't expect to have a spare new-type fridge for years - I've yet to need one or buy one - and both my current one and the spare are the old type with lots of tubes in awkward places.
They also contain CFCs from decades ago (probably the really bad ones) so there's no way I'm going to risk letting it gas out - the council used to take fridges away for free but ours doesn't any more - which probably explains why I see more dumped ones - quite a few are damaged in the process. It's just totally short-sighted penny-pinching.
Old-fashioned ammonia is making a comeback - it's flammable and caustic but a really simple compound with no new surprises (see signature text).
If you aren't stupid enough to kill yourself with it or tear-gas your neighbours with it then the environment & bacteria will deal with it quite quickly (obviously it's a fertiliser that can be made into liquid feed if bubbled through any acid).
Some of the recent ones use fuel gases that contribute to greenhouse effects (bacteria aren't interested in these).
Modern fluorinated gases are supposed to be no danger to ozone - so they say - but they said that about CFCs. The testing has improved a lot, but I doubt they have improved by even one order of magnitude and the planet is still more complex than we know - by many orders of magnitude.
Like the man said - real wisdom is realising how little you know...
Literally a minefield - and any fridge in the open wouldn't have stopped the winter of 2010/11 from freezing your apples anyway.
Cheers.
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Literally a minefield - and any fridge in the open wouldn't have stopped the winter of 2010/11 from freezing your apples anyway.
Not so sure about that. We have an ancient caravan in which we store apples. And those did survive down to -16C successfully. Undoubtedly it never got that cold inside the caravan, but neither would it get that cold inside an outdoor fridge or freezer. :wave:
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We have an ancient caravan in which we store apples. And those did survive down to -16C successfully. Undoubtedly it never got that cold inside the caravan, but neither would it get that cold inside an outdoor fridge or freezer. :wave:
That's interesting - in 2010/11 I only had double bubble and a bunch of water-filled 2L bottles around my Meyers Lemon. All the bottles froze and the tree was killed to a couple of cm above the soil (fortunately it's back and fruited the last year or two, so any graft must have been lower down).
I've nothing to compare with your actual experience with caravan apples - mine weren't at risk in an unplugged fridge in the garage.
Old caravans tend to be draughty too, so it looks like Bob F does know his onions.
Cheers.
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Can I slightly rephrase one of the questions, has anyone tried growing cordon apple trees? Any thoughts?
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Can I slightly rephrase one of the questions, has anyone tried growing cordon apple trees? Any thoughts?
Cordons are probably the most-used method for new (spur bearing) trees in small suburban gardens - they are absolutely fine, reliably produce a maximum of apples from a minimum of space and work, & also cast less shade than anything except stepovers (& maybe very narrow pyramids).
For me the big advantage is that you can let the ones you like get a bit wider and prune the mediocrities to a few fruit a year (or 'demote' them by moving them to less premium positions - but some excellent apples need more time so it's better to keep them going at 'tickover' eg. D'arcy Spice does deserve its high reputation but mine took 10 years to really live up to it).
Or are you talking about 'supercolumns/supercordons'? They restrict you even more than they are, because there are so few varieties, and last time I looked none of them would get into my top 40.
Cheers.
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Can I slightly rephrase one of the questions, has anyone tried growing cordon apple trees? Any thoughts?
Cordons are probably the most-used method for new (spur bearing) trees in small suburban gardens - they are absolutely fine, reliably produce a maximum of apples from a minimum of space and work, & also cast less shade than anything except stepovers (& maybe very narrow pyramids).
For me the big advantage is that you can let the ones you like get a bit wider and prune the mediocrities to a few fruit a year (or 'demote' them by moving them to less premium positions - but some excellent apples need more time so it's better to keep them going at 'tickover' eg. D'arcy Spice does deserve its high reputation but mine took 10 years to really live up to it).
Or are you talking about 'supercolumns/supercordons'? They restrict you even more than they are, because there are so few varieties, and last time I looked none of them would get into my top 40.
Cheers.
Well I was talking about super columns but as no one had used them, I thought that I should look at cordons instead. Presumably they grow at angle or is that wrong?
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I have spent some time reading various stuff on the internet.
I'm not 100% sure about this but as far as I can tell from my research super columns simply seem to be standard varieties grafted onto an M27 rootstock and pruned to produce one strong central columns without any other framework. All the other pruning seems to be designed to promote fruiting spurs along the main column. The result is to produce a tree that is very productive for the space used. Unfortunately the tree will not retain its column shape without correct pruning.
You seem to lack confidence about pruning. I'm sure you could learn the skills needed to prune a column, or any other shape like a cordon, a fan, a step over, or whatever you choose.
Most of my apple trees are bush shape grown on M9 rootstock, so I am reluctant to offer advice on pruning for restricted shapes but it is a skill that can be learned. Also there really are plenty of varieties to choose from. You could choose almost any young variety on an M27 or M9 rootstock and prune it to your desired shape.
The answer to your dilemma is learning the pruning skills necessary to deal with restricted shapes. Start with a young tree with a rootstock and scion of your choice and prune it to the shape you want. You don't need an "off the shelf" solution. I think instead you need to make a determined effort to learn about pruning. That way you will be in control not relying on others to find ready made solutions.
Be confident in yourself. Go for it!
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I'm not 100% sure about this but as far as I can tell from my research super columns simply seem to be standard varieties grafted onto an M27 rootstock and pruned to produce one strong central columns without any other framework.
This is the kind of information that the purveyors of columns wouldn't want you to know - so it sounds right.
I always assumed that the weird varieties they choose (none of them highly regarded) might be tailored to help the shaping - but they would also increase the "novelty value" to the uninitiated and help hide any underlying mundanity of the technique (every experienced gardener avoids novelty like the plague - it's always an excuse for doubling the price).
Forgive me for repeating the common knowledge about ordinary cordons specifically and M27 in general.
Cordon apples work with spur bearers only (though tip bearers are less common anyway). The extra vigour of triploids means more pruning and a bigger tree needing a wider space but it still works.
Everything I've ever read about cordon plums says don't bother.
M27 is a very weak rootstock needing a proper stake, especially if the tree is forced to grow taller - becoming a longer lever.
M27 is too weak to do well on all soils so it's not for everyone, though heavy mulching will fix lighter soils. Heavy soil needs more work - but bear in mind that most of the stuff you dig in to fix it will rot away - I suppose M27 are easy to dig up & replant but I'd rather go for using something like gravel & grit to lighten a soil indefinitely.
Some nurseries encourage you to use M27 and others advise you against it (even though that means you will buy less trees). Obviously I'm more inclined to believe advice given that doesn't double the profits of the giver.
Basically M27 needs everything 'just so' to produce the yields trumpeted, and even a partial shortfall might result in biennial bearing - apparently, (I've always used M26 for cordons).
Cheers.
PS. Has anyone experience of using a less finicky rootstock with a very dwarfing interscion?
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I'm not 100% sure about this but as far as I can tell from my research super columns simply seem to be standard varieties grafted onto an M27 rootstock and pruned to produce one strong central columns without any other framework.
Basically M27 needs everything 'just so' to produce the yields trumpeted, and even a partial shortfall might result in biennial bearing - apparently, (I've always used M26 for cordons).
Yes, a sensible cautionary comment about M27. I try to keep things simple by growing a conventional shape like a dwarf bush on M9. But with limited space I have found M27 useful to add additional apple varieties, but taking up far less room than the alternatives.
Like yourself there are many very capable gardeners on here who would be fully capable of providing the extra bit of care and attention needed by an M27. However, Mr Davholla seems a little inexperienced and perhaps lacking in confidence. (No criticism intended). So my advice was perhaps not the best.
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Like yourself there are many very capable gardeners on here who would be fully capable of providing the extra bit of care and attention needed by an M27. However, Mr Davholla seems a little inexperienced and perhaps lacking in confidence. (No criticism intended). So my advice was perhaps not the best.
I am very lacking in confidence because although my family tree is going well, I am not really expert. Also there are time problems. I think I will measure the space I have this weekend and see what I can grow.
Thank you all and now this year I will get all the apples and not the rats!!!
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Yes, indeed learn about pruning but not just like that.
To keep your trees to a manageable size (you really are going to manage them, aren't you) then when they reach target dimensions you put them under restrictive pruning. whilst they are still growing they are under unrestrictive pruning.
Therefore you will need to learn about TWO pruning systems! Most people struggle to implement one.
I like to think of them as construction and maintenance.
While under construction you must have a very clear idea of the eventual size and shape of your tree, and by winter pruning stimulate it to grow the way you want, not the way it wants to grow.
As different parts of your tree reach their targets, change them over to maintenance i.e. summer pruning.
It is quite normal to be pruning the same tree both summer and winter, the changeover happening gradually. What I find difficult in this situation is deciding which shoots are to be summer pruned and which shoots are to be left for winter. It is about this time of year that I go round doing my winter pruning, and keeping score of (a) shoots summer pruned wrongly that I need for winter and (b) shoots not summer pruned that should have been.
All trained trees need eventually to be under restrictive pruning and almost all free-standing ones unrestricted. Most of my trees are oblique cordons but I'm also involved with espaliers, fans and pergolas.
My latest project involves three dwarf pyramid trees of three different varieties. They are hard to prune right but a new tree comes into crop quickly and yields high class fruit, with plenty of exposure to sun light and air.