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Produce => Edible Plants => Topic started by: Larkspur on May 06, 2007, 15:40:27
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Do you remember the strange dandelion like flowers several of us had on Costoluto Fiorentino tomatos last year?. Well I have them on three other varieties this year: Brandywine, Cuor di Bue and Cherokee Purple. Just like the Costolutos these toms seem to have stopped growing at the point of this odd flower and I shall have to use a side shoot as a new leader. Anyone else having similar problems this year?
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Marmande does the same
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Marmande does the same
So thats what that is!
Its very interesting. Seems there are rolled up leaves inside it.
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I think because Marmande is a semi-determinate variety,it gets a bit confused between a flower truss and a growing stem, and produces something inbetween, which turns into an enormous deformed terminal bud.
tried a Google with Marmande+deformed+bud, but got this ???
Submission Returns by Name - Alisoun MacCoul of ElphaneIsabel de
Marmande. Device. Azure, two wooden spoons in saltire and in chief a bell, ... as to be unidentifiable as anything other than a deformed lozenge. ...
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??? ??? ???
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I wish they'd warn you of this on the seed packet. Having looked at my marmande tomatoes mine seem to be growing a hug fat bud at the top too. I shan't pinch out the top side shoots until I'm sure.
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As far as i can tell that the growing point.
My Marmande look great and inside this bud are just more leaves. Let it grow.
;)
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It says on my old packet T&M that if the growing stem forms a flower truss, use a sideshoot as a new main stem, but it doesn't say how deformed and ugly it looks
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I'll take a photo tomorrow of what i have one my ones.
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Had this last year - I let it go and everything was fine in terms of tomato production, I even froze a few kilo's. Althougn I must admit I am not too fussy about removing sideshoots on any of my toms which may have benefitted the big buds on marmande.
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If your Marmande is a semi why would you want to pinch it out,I don't understand. XX Jeannine
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the main growing stem initially forms a truss which produces the enormous deformed bud. If you use a new sideshoot as the main growing stem, it grows like a normal indeterminate variety (remove sideshoots)
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What doesn't help I think is that Marmande is classified everywhere as an indeterminate which would normally indicate you pinch out the sides shoots.
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But if it an semi determinate I would only prune from the bottom up to the last sucker before the first fruit truss,I would leave that one on,after 10 days I would repeat to catch the regrowth and then no more pruning at all, not on a semi. XX Jeannine
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T&M say to treat Marmande as I described. What are the benefits of doing things your way, Jeannine??
RT
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It is what I was taught on a UNI course in Canada,the reason was to get the best yeilds and the largest fruit in combination. They went into the reasons to prune/not prune ,which to prune and why and when etc.
I have always followed what we learned, the number one thing was find out what your tomato is and follow the rule for that one.
Semi is the one that confuses most people especially as seed companies do give conflicting advice and semis are often sold as the wrong thing anyway , if in doubt I would not prune it at all.
I am personally not very familiar with Marmande, ,if T&M say it is indeterminate they may well be right, in which case I would prune it, but if it is another one that the seed company has got wrong as they often do ??
I will take a look with a couple of very reliable agricultural UNI sites and see if I can get a sure answer. XX Jeannine
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thanks Jeannine. Marmande is a large beefsteak variety. I'd have thought not pruning it would lead to problems with the heavy fruit - i mean it needs supporting and the best way to do it is treating it as indeterminate and staking the main vine. B Flowerdew has it as one of the best tasting varieties, tho that may be true if it's grown in Tuscany, it can disappoint here in the UK
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It is definately a semi, dislikes greenhouse, grows better outside. The reason T&M are saying to pinch out the flower and train a new leader is to keep the plant going when it wants to end as would a determinate.
Personally I would not pinch it out. or more probably I would pinch one out and leave one and compare at the end of the season.
It is a short season tomato ,by removing the flower and training a new leader you would prolong the season but you may lose size of fruit in the process as the determinate doesn't start to grow it's fruit seriously until it had finished growing to it's full height.
I do have the seeds in my collection I have just discovered, I might quickly plant a few and see what happens.
XX Jeannine
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I grow it mainly for sentimental reasons, as it was one of the varieties I grew in my first year of gardening,about 25 years ago. It cropped so heavily - we had more tomatoes in weight than potatoes
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Then is sounds that you have been doing the right thing with this one and that is the beauty of semis. Well done XX Jeannine
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well yes, tho we did end up with enough chutney to feed a small Indian state
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As promised here is a photo of the bud on my Marmande plant.
It does have some flower buds too ;)
(http://backyard.8m.net/garden%20veg/07.05.07/may%20070002.JPG)
(http://backyard.8m.net/garden%20veg/07.05.07/may%20070003.JPG)
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have you seen the film "Little Shop of Horrors"? Feed Me.........
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Jeannine can I be clear on this. Are you saying that I should leave the three varieties of tomato I mentioned in the opening question alone, even if they stop at one truss which is what they appear to be doing? I am obviously unfamiliar with both these varieties and semi determinates in general having spent many years growing "normal" cordon varieties and find these new(to me) plants very confusing to deal with.
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No I cannot truly say that as semis are the comics of the tomato world, but if it is a favourite tomato and you want to grow it regularly I would prune one and leave one so that you get a better picture of that particular tomato. I am not in a position to say as I have never grown this one. I have regularly grown Longkeeper and Celebrity which are semis and I pruned them according to the way I was taught but if I only had 1 flower truss I probably would follow T&M advice and remove it. It may be something that this tomato does. XX Jeannine
As an afterthough, the flower looks just like the last flower truss on a determinate tomato, it always ends with a flower truss up top after it has finished growing to it's full height,but this is odd if only very small.
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I am sooooooooooooo confused. I have got lots of tomatoes & I have only ever removed the bit which grows between the stem & a leaf. This year I have got some from the pass-the-parcel & they were labeled bush so I am planning on leaving them alone. Is this right? I've also got loads of San Mazuno [?] cos I want to make passata. What do I need to do with these?
Help please. :)
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Thanks Jeannine. They do look to me as if they are terminal flowers. I currently have them in a greenhouse but I think I will transfer them to the lotty where they can do what they like without me having to worry about them and replace them in the greenhouse with some I understand ;) :D. At least it will be interesting ::)
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San Marzano grow as cordons. They produce huge crops of very large fruit.
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yes Jeannine - with Marmande the very first truss that forms is on the main stem when the plant is still small and is terminal, with one flower bud growing enormous and distorted. Using a new side shoot as a new stem it grows normally like a indeterminate. Costoluto may be the same. I'm growing it for the first time this year
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San Marzano grow as cordons. They produce huge crops of very large fruit.
I do hope so as i want loads. Thanks for the reassurance.
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I have just re read you first comment,I grow Cherokee Purple and 4 types of Brandywine every year and have done for a great many years now, I have never seen this on those,I am growing Couer De Bleu for the first time this year,my plants are about 20 inches with no sign of this funny flower, it gets stranger. I can think of absolutely no reason why your three toms should look like that. I have periodically grown Costulato Genovese and Costulato Fiorentino without this as well.
This is very odd,
XX Jeannine
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Hi again Jeannine. It is not just three plants it is every one of those three varieties.It will teach me to decide to be adventurous . The usual Gardeners Delight, San Marzano etc are all fine ::)
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Are you absolutely certain that there are 3 types, could you have given some away and you have in fact got left with the three semis by accident. If I had three identical plants that had the same thing and 2 of them are indeterminates I would presume I had mixed them up. The other 2 never get a final flower at all,they go on till the frost gets them. The only other thing I could come up with is that something( I have no idea what) is maturing you plants far too early, and that would still not explain the Brandywine and Cherokee Purple.
Just for curiosity which Brandywine is it, some have potato leaf foliage, if it is one that should and it hasn't then there is a mix up.
The other question I would be asking myself is if the seeds themselves got mixed up either by you, the company or someone else if you got them in a trade.
If all this fails then I am stumped. Please tell me which Brandywine it is, at least I can answer that one for you. XX Jeannine
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Thanks for all the good advice. My Marmandes are looking like ChrisG's at the moment so I shall be prepared to train another leader shoot if necessary.
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Hi jeannine. It is a potatoe leafed Brandywine. The seeds for the Brandywine and the Cherokee Purple came from a firm in France, the Cuor di Bue from a different source. I am certain I have not mixed up either the plants or the seeds. Strange isn't it.
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So the Brandywine that is growing ,does it have potato leaves and the funny flower too? XX Jeannine
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Yes.
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Then I have no idea at all,sorry I have never heard of it ,it is bizarre XX Jeannine
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:)
I had this happen to a variety of tomato I grew last year called Big Rainbow, the tomato grew around the odd looking flower and what I can only call mutant tomatoes appeared.
I didn't get one 'proper' tomato off this plant :(
In my humble experience Cherokee Purple is susceptible, but it doesn't seem to affect the whole plant, it's worth growing Larkspur (needs support as the fruits are heavy.... and very tasty :)) / shades x
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That flower is weird!!-Something has damaged the plants. Insects?-some contamination from weedkiller?
I grow or have grown every variety mentioned and never seen this
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I've just found one of the mutant flowers on my Urbikany [it's an early bush variety from Real Seeds]. Shall I remove it?
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Cleo I absolutely agree with you.1 tomato could be a fluke or something particular to that variety but three completely different tomatoes,there has to be something wrong there,I don't know what but it is something I have never seen and like you I grow many varieties.
It is very odd.
XX Jeannine
TRIFFIDS????
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I was one of the people who had strange flowers and deformed tomatoes on my Costoluto Fiorentino last year. This year I have sowed some more from the packet and they too have the dandelion type flower heads. I also received some Marmande on a seed swap and they are also exhibiting this strange flower. I will have to dig out the seed packet of Costoluto Fiorentino and see who produced them. I think it is an Italian company.
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TRIFFIDS????
Not me, honest!
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My one still seems to be growing strong.
It has even more flower buds now. Could it just be this is what is suppose to happen with beefstake types?
btw i'm a newbi so just ignore me ;)
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Last year I had odd-shaped (cristate) flowers producing equally odd-shaped fruit, but they were fine to eat.
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any photos??
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any photos??
see page back
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thanks Chris :-)
how about raising this with gardeners question time???
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thanks Chris :-)
how about raising this with gardeners question time???
Do you have a link for it? Would be interesting to see what they say
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I'm growing both Costoluto Fiorentino and Urbikany. Not at the flowering stage yet but I would like to know what to do if it happens.
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I didn't take any pics last year - they were mostly on Black Seaman, which I'm not growing this year - but if any appear this time, I'll be keeping a record as it's an interesting phenomenon.
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Barnowl, I have removed the strange flowers from my plants. Don't know if I should have done but it doesn't seem to have had any negative effect (yet ;D)
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my marmands suddenly seem a lot more interesting now
marg ::)
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Barnowl, I have removed the strange flowers from my plants. Don't know if I should have done but it doesn't seem to have had any negative effect (yet ;D)
Thanks Larkspur.
Please keep us updated!
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spoke to a guy in the garden centre today who says that the seeds have been affected by a virus.
He suggested that you contact the seed company that you purchased the seeds from as there may be some contaminated batches about.
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This flower distortion isn't a disease of any sort, it's usually caused by exposure to low temperatures. Low doesn't mean terribly cold, this can happen at temperatures below 15 degrees C. Some tomato types like Marmande are more susceptible to it than others. The deformed flower can result in deformed fruit, usually known as 'catfacing'.
The only other usual reason for this type of deformity is exposure to certain hormones in some phenoxy group herbicides, which are used to control broad leaved weeds in cereal crops.
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Thank you jennym. Though they havn't been exposed to very low temperatures all three varieties were amongst my first sowing of toms this year so exposure to temperatures below 15 degrees C. is certainly a possible answer. All my later sown varieties are unaffected.
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Thank you jennym. Though they havn't been exposed to very low temperatures all three varieties were amongst my first sowing of toms this year so exposure to temperatures below 15 degrees C. is certainly a possible answer. All my later sown varieties are unaffected.
Yeh same with me, mine have been exposed to close to freezing ;) ;)
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Sounds like a good answer Jenny though I had just been wondering if it could be caused by the very HIGH temperatures we have been having so early in the season- it's been up to nearly 40 in my greenhouse some days. But then I suppose it has been quite low at night though I did have a heater during the coldest nights.
Still not clear whether I ought to remove them. ???
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That wouldn't account for the problems with the Brandywine, they were bred in an area of America with very hot summers
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I was one of the people who had strange flowers and deformed tomatoes on my Costoluto Fiorentino last year. This year I have sowed some more from the packet and they too have the dandelion type flower heads. I also received some Marmande on a seed swap and they are also exhibiting this strange flower. I will have to dig out the seed packet of Costoluto Fiorentino and see who produced them. I think it is an Italian company.
Surprised myself..........the Costoluto Fiorentino seeds were B&Q own produced. :o
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Marymary, these distorted flowers often produced deformed fruits, so you could leave them on & see what happens, or take them off, as you please. It's not a disease, so won't kill the plant.
Jeannine, I don't think it matters where the seed was bred, it's the growing cells in the particular flower that are affected by the cold.
Later flowers on the same plant will probably be ok, as they probably won't have been affected by the temperature so much.
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Heres another picture.
Reminds me of the film "Aliens" ::)
(http://backyard.8m.net/garden%20veg/13.05.07/may%20130017.JPG)
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Looks just like several of mine, Chris. I have removed them.
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I have noticed that the two younger plants in my kitchen have this strange flower too.
Must be bad seeds.
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I think we are being invaded from another planet,today we eat funny tomatoes, tomorrow thay eat us !!!
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hehee attack of the killer tomatoes
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Surprised myself..........the Costoluto Fiorentino seeds were B&Q own produced. :o
Just because it has B&Q, Homebase or Morrisons on the packet only signifies that they ordered enough packets to have their name printed on them. Even if they appear to be from a reputable seed firm it does not mean that they grew the seed. I have noted that several bona fide seed firms have the same postcode, looks fishy to me (the postcode is quite near me).
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i,v found loads of these on marmande this year also on tigerella i,v never seen them before although i,v grown marmande for years i,v taken off the side shoots before i noticed the queer flower and they do seem to have stopped growing, not sure what to do now wait for another to pop up i suppose
marg
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Tonight I took off the side shoots of I think either Bigger Boy or Marmande and then noticed this strange looking flower. On closer inspection there didn't seem to be any leading shoot only the flowers. Will it grow any more or is that all the fruit I'm likely to get.
Cherry
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Just a quick update on my tomatoes. Having removed the strange flowers the Cuor di Bue have carried on growing normally and indeed are setting a second truss. The jury is still out on the Cherokee Purple but they do look as if they will now grow on normally. The flowers on the Brandywine undoubtedly were a terminal bud and they have entirely stopped growing at the first truss ???. Bit of a mixed result but not too bad overall :)
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hmm so do you think i should remove the one on my Marmande plant?
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Seems to have done no harm to my plants so far as I can tell.
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For what it is worth I have just had an email answer re this problem from a friend in the US who grows a lot of Heritage toms foreating and for competition.He has told me that if the flower looks like a dandelion rather than a tomato flower it has it's uses.
Apparently if you want to grow very large fruit you need to look specially for this flower then hand pollinate it by shaking the flower truss several times a day over a few day period.If done right and at the right time the tomato grown will considerably bigger than the others. If not properly pollinated either naturally of by yourself the fruit will still grow but will be deformed.
If he doesn't want to bother doing the above he removes the flower to avoid the imperfect fruit.Other flowers on the truss will be OK.
Thought I would share this info.
XX Jeannine
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Thanks for that it helps a lot.
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i cannot understand why so many of these are appearing this year i,v never seen it before and i have grown toms for years the marmande seeds are 3 years old
but the tigerella is new seed i,m going to leave a couple just to see what happens
marg
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Well guess what,I have been examining my tom flowers daily,something I don't normally do,and I had two of the flowers last week, I have ignored them completely , they have now opened into large tomato flowers, they are the same as any of the big flowers that grow on some of the older varieties, I have hand pollinated them as per instructions from my tomato friend in the US. When I first noticed them they were right at the growing tip but the plant has carried on growing beyond them, they were on Cherokee Purple by the way. I think the flowers I have are just the usual large flowers from many of my heirlooms,as opposed to the delicate flowers on more modern ones. I have just never looked that closely at emerging flowers befor.XX Jeannine
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is this the same sort of flower, on a supersteak ? :)
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That look exactlly like the ones I had.
It went way over my head but my friend in Canada said something about bigger tomatoes having more cells to pollinate ,and if you see the big flower hand pollinate because the fruit will grow really big,if not it will be mishapen as all the cells don't get done. That is not a very good description but I think it might portray what I am trying to say.
Anyway, it is the reason that the folks who are trying to beat records with big toms look for the dandelion flower.
XX Jeannine
I will have a google about tomato cells, or ask my friend to register for A4A.
XX Jeannine
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I had loads of these last year, I think I've still got pictures somewhere (will have a look). I had it on Green Moldovan and Gregory Altai.
However I also had strange cristate flowers on my aubergines, including one with 14 stigma...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v693/froglemouse/july24002B.jpg)
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I am totally lost ! I've a few mutant flowers too this year, at least one on a Marmande (which is in the g/h, must try and get it out before the roots are too embedded) and had one of those aub flowers last year.
Will get out there with a notebook tonight and see what's what. I can't be bothered with the hand pollinating thing so after I've IDd them, I think I'm going to have them off.
Mine have been cold too.
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Couldn't wait ...........
1. SS Pineapple
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l198/missusKP/30%20May%202007/22d7bb10.jpg)
2. Marmande
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l198/missusKP/30%20May%202007/bb88e23d.jpg)
3. A different SS Pineapple
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l198/missusKP/30%20May%202007/6b67b347.jpg)
and finally back to the first SS Pineapple, what are the spots ? Looks like some kind of bug, but can't see any ? :o
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l198/missusKP/30%20May%202007/4dec2f87.jpg)
Please help a poor idiot.
;D
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Last year I had cristate flowers on Black Seaman, which produced cristate toms. I should have taken pics.
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Last year I had cristate flowers on Black Seaman, which produced cristate toms. I should have taken pics.
Wots that mean then?
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A cristate plant is one in which the growing point develops, for reasons which aren't clear, into a line. So the flowers are pulled out in one direction. I never photographed those, but here's a cristate dandelion to give you the idea.
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Ahh. Thanks for that Robert. Last year I had some beefsteak type toms which were definately elongated, sort of wide & lumpy though I didn't notice what the flowers they started as looked like. Tasted great though. This year I have notlced loads of large flowers so I shall keep an eye on them & see if they develop & if so into what.
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This is a very interesting thread... I have planted about five different varieties of toms and put them out in the garden slightly early because of the good weather here in Manchester, and quite a few have this strange flower.
Perhaps the cause is the cold, anyway, I am just going to let them do their thing and see what happens, quite fancy "strange" tomatoes... hmm"
Lin
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Mary Mary, don't forget that many of the older toms and some of the beefsteaks just naturally are odd and bumpy.Thewre is nothing wrong with them. Most of the toms I grow fall into this description, they are supposed to look like that,the hybrids on the other hand are well fomed and neat more like the shop toms.
Today I saw a really weird tomato in my greenhouse that looked like 10 or more tomatoes all joined together, then I remembered that is was a Pocket Book and that is exactly what they look like,
XX Jeannine
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I don't mind at all what my toms look like only that they are happy, healthy & taste good. I remember my disappointment years ago when I first grew tomatoes & they tasted just like shop bought ones & I'd put all that effort into growing them - you've guessed it Moneymaker. ;D
Jeannine I'm very impressed that you have tomatoes forming already. I've got lots of flowers but no sign of a fruit on any of them. :(
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well my Cuor di bue have produced them. One flower on the first truss is extra large, but the main stem grows normally. The marmades have also done it, with the main stem stopping growth in a flower truss
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I think I had an aubergine that did that last year - we all spent ages trying to work out what variety it was.
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I also had a Green Moldova last year which set a low truss from the tip of which emerged the main stem.
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Just an update on my toms. Having removed the initial "dandelion" like flowers from them they are all now growing and flowering normally and very healthy. Have to wait to see what next year brings now ;D