Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => Allotment Movement => Topic started by: picman on November 22, 2017, 20:54:49
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At our AGM I unsuccessfully tried to get our members to ban Glyphosate weed killers from our site :BangHead: , My evidence presented reported the research from MIT re the harm it can do if ingested by humans , and presented the fact it has been banned , in the Netherlands, Mexico , Argentina Sri Lanka Brazil , and El Salvador. I was wondering if any associations have banned these weedkillers.
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I know some people feel very strongly about Glyphosate, but can you really ban something that is still, atm, legal to use in the UK? (although I should think that nobody likes the idea of it being used quite as much as it is!)
The EU haven't banned it (yet!) because they don't think the research has actually proved it is harmful, to humans.
For every bit of research against, there's another says it is safe.
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Hi Ya, I don't advocate the use of weedkillers but in certain circumstances there is no alternative. I have read that Glyphosate is safe and breaks down on contact with the earth. I know of a no dig gardener who uses it all the time and it's their choice. If I use it on my plot thats my decision. As for what other countries are doing, they use worse things. I would stand against and ignore the ban if our site tried to bring it in. There are worse things being used like neonicotinoids. You have your reasons I've no doubt but so do others. You do your thing on your plot I will do mine and providing neither hurts the other then hey ho, nuffsaid
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lezelle... glyphosate. While the pesticide industry maintains that glyphosate is minimally toxic to humans, new research published in the Journal Entropy strongly argues otherwise by shedding light on exactly how glyphosate disrupts mammalian physiology. Authored by Anthony Samsel and Stephanie Seneff of MIT, the paper investigates glyphosate’s inhibition of cytochrome P450 (CYP) enzymes, an overlooked component of lethal toxicity to mammals. Dr. Seneff describes the mechanism by which the glyphosate disrupts human biological processes. The currently accepted view is that ghyphosate is not harmful to humans or any mammals because the shikimate pathway found in plants is absent in animals. The shikimate pathway is involved with the plant’s synthesis of certain amino acids and is lethally disrupted by glyphosate. What has been completely overlooked until now is that the shikimate pathway is present in beneficial human gut bacteria, which play a critical role in human health. Gut bacteria aid digestion, prevent permeability of the gastointestinal tract, synthesize vitamins and provide the foundation for robust immunity. Glyphosate Disrupts the Functioning of Beneficial Gut Bacteria In synergy with disruption of the biosynthesis of important amino acids via the shikimate pathway, glyphosate inhibits the cytochrome P450 (CYP) enzymes produced by the gut microbiome. CYP enzymes are critical to human biology because they detoxify the multitude of foreign chemical compounds, xenobiotics, that we are exposed to in our modern environment today.
As a result, humans exposed to glyphosate through use of this herbicide in their community or through ingestion of its residues on industrialized food products become even more vulnerable to the damaging effects of other chemicals and environmental toxins they encounter! What’s worse is that the negative impact of glyphosate exposure is slow and insidious over months and years as inflammation gradually gains a foothold in the cellular systems of the body. The consequences of this systemic inflammation are most of the diseases and conditions associated with the Western lifestyle:
Gastrointestinal disorders, Obesity, Diabetes, Heart Disease , Depression , Autism, Infertility, Cancer ,Multiple Sclerosis, Alzheimer’s disease And the list goes on and on and on …
In summary, Dr. Seneff’s study of glyphosate uncovers the manner in which this lethal environmental toxin gradually and inevitably disrupts homeostatis in the human body with the tragic end result of disease, degeneration, and widespread suffering.
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Mmm 2 sides to the story perhaps? I prefer to check out both sides before taking published articles as fact.
Read more about that here if you like.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4538578/
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/glyphosate-the-new-bogeyman/
and
https://www.alternet.org/food/meet-controversial-mit-scientist-who-claims-have-discovered-cause-gluten-sensitivty
SS(Dr Senaff): No. It’s all computer science. It’s all synthesis. So basically what I do is I read papers and I process them with the computer to help me understand them and interpret them and generalize and build a story. So it’s really a matter of studying. Mostly what I do now is study, and then write. Trying to understand biology. I have an undergraduate degree from MIT in biology, and I also spent one year in graduate school in biology before switching over to computer science.
So I personally don't think it is as clear cut as you believe..
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Plot 18 , I am willing to accept its not clear cut these things never are, it took decades to ban DDT ... but even the smallest doubt as the the safety of Glyphosate for me negates its use on a public space , and the fact the Netherlands has banned it speaks volumes....
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I recently had a very long and angry argument about this exact thing. My point of view is that if there is even the slightest doubt that using a chemical might have awful and far reaching consequences for our health or the environment then it has to be regulated against while the evidence comes in. Glyphosate is being used in some pretty obscene ways - the farmer behind my allotment used it a year ago to kill and ripen a whole field of wheat - this is turned in to flour and sold in the shops - and we have no way of knowing if it is in our food supply.
As for us home-gardeners and allotment holders, we don't NEED weedkillers at all ... we can cover, weed, hoe or just live with and manage the weeds manually. Sure - it's more convenient to use it - but if it turns out to have far reaching consequences then that's not something I could live with. I've stopped using glyphosate and on the rare occasion I feel tempted to use weedkiller, I have a supply of the stupidly banned safer simple chemical Ammonium Sulphamate which works better anyway.
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If it is safe for humans... Why does the council work man who sprays our pavements with glyphosate wear a full protective suite and face mask....
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If it is safe for humans... Why does the council work man who sprays our pavements with glyphosate wear a full protective suite and face mask....
When spraying the person doing the spraying is exposed for very long periods and the council has to legally protect them from over exposure to the chemicals so they go above and beyond with the PPE. Glyphosate is used as a desiccant on crops before harvest to bring down the moisture content and we have been eating it for years. I dont agree with it being used in this way and getting in the food system
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You do your thing on your plot I will do mine and providing neither hurts the other then hey ho, nuffsaid
I agree, is the only way forward.
I very rarely use it - but reserve my right to use it on my own plot, should I choose to.
I don't take kindly to people telling me what to do, and it seems like Big Brother control, to me - unless there is scientific agreement on the need to ban it, of course.
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Well we should probably keep burning fossil fuels as much as we want to as well then ... we'll never have 100% proof that climate change will make this planet unliveable until we've actually done it! Of course it will be too late then ... but hey-ho ... at least we won't be told what to do by "Big Brother"
:icon_cheers:
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Hippydave "I dont agree with it being used in this way and getting in the food system" so is it safe or not in the food system ?
Plot 18 I " but reserve my right to use it on my own plot, should I choose to. " You may take care its just sprayed on your plot, others are not so careful, sprays get carried in the wind , also our site manager sprays it all around the site paths and common areas .
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I was spraying with glysophate a few months back and noticed my that my jeans were soaked from a fine spray coming from a pin hole leak in the sprayer pipe. I am still alive but will inform you all if anything happens in the future.
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No we haven't banned it and we have no plans to do so. The science is not clear cut at all and the article you quote from is a not necessarily all that it seems. http://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/15/4/1416/htm for those that fancy a read.
Even they conclude
“The pathologies to which glyphosate could plausibly contribute, through its known biosemiotic effects, include inflammatory bowel disease, obesity, depression, ADHD, autism, Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, ALS, multiple sclerosis,
cancer, cachexia, infertility, and developmental malformations.”
They are merely stating plausibility and contribution - they are not stating any direction causation. They go on to say " it is imperative for more independent research to take place to validate the ideas presented here" - . What they have written is just a review - not novel research and it doesn't really add anything new (even when it was published 4 years ago) to the bank of scientific knowledge.
Also some odd things about this article, where is was published and the authors - summarised and debated here.
http://sci-phy.com/detecting-bogus-scientific-journals
I'll leave it to you to read and make your own minds up but I find nothing convincing about it.
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I am happy to go with the scientific consensus and there is no consensus on Glyphosate that suggests it is in any more harmful than other substance used.
Glyphosate is pretty benign compared with some of the chemicals we used in the recent past and about the only weedkiller an amateur gardener can use. If it is legal to use whats the problem?
Just use some common sense on all this stuff.
Sometimes the stuff the organic advocates come out with on our plots defy scientific/common sense. I asked what one of the above person was spraying on their grapes ... apparently it was copper sulphate solution... eek that is a dodgy substance but it is ok because it is 'organic" Oh and using ascetic acid or sodium chloride to kill weeds is apparently ok on that plot.
A local plotholder who is on the evangelical 'organic type' tried get our allotment association to be organic only in other words only fully organic types could be a member!
Among their other proposals was a ban on manure as it contained 'chemicals' and polluter the groundwater.
That person was gobsmacked when it was pointed out that the old carpets they covered their plot in were leaching some pretty nasty stuff into the soil. I didn't help when another wag asked if the nettle/comfrey teas they used had noxious chemicals in them. We fell about when they also suggested that we only use rainwater as tapwater has chemicals which pollute the ground....
I rarely use any chemical, pheromone traps nematodes etc etc on my plots largely because they are not needed and they also cost a fortune.
I know someone will flame me over this post but my attitude is live and let live on our plots and we don't tell people what to do and expect them not to tell us...
Oh with one exception ...plots uncultivated and allowed to weed over abandoned until they get a 'letter' then they do a bit and leave it till next time....
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If it is safe for humans... Why does the council work man who sprays our pavements with glyphosate wear a full protective suite and face mask....
I used to spray for the council. I was the only person with a certificate. Dressed up like a ghostbuster even on the hottest days. Sweat mixed with the fine spray would be all over me. Fullers earth breaks it down so I had a gritty old bar of soap to wash down with and once when I wiped my face with the stuff on my hands I ate a teaspoon full of fullers earth ( not nice). Perhaps some of my problems are not down to me partying hard every weekend but the backlash from spraying for 25 years. Hand on heart, I cannot say I emerged unscathed, but for somebody who was believed to have been conceived on the biggest party of the 20th century, (VE day) I ain't doing that bad.
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As allotment holders any use of glyphosate is dwarfed by agricultural applications. Ever since Monsanto developed cereals that are glyphosate resistant, it is standard to drench these crops part way through growing and destroy all weeds. Similarly glyphosate is routinely used as a dessicant on oilseed and other crops. (Even malted barley which worries me personally). Monsanto issue advice on timing in relation to % of seed moisture. The volumes being sprayed annually for these purposes are terrifying.
Now I make an admission. I use it myself. I never spray but use gel sticks in tiny quantities to smear a little onto the leaves of particular tough weeds. One stick lasted four seasons then dried up while still half used. If it was banned I'm sure I'd cope using other approaches.
What seems odd is that given how widespread it is used there seems little evidence that it is safe. Now equally evidence that it is definitely harmful also seems scanty. But shouldn't a precautionary approach operate in this modern world. That is prove it safe before widespread use. Otherwise we risk endless reruns of health problems like industry use of asbestos, thalidomide, lead in petrol, nox emissions, etc etc.
Our AGM is soon. If a ban was proposed would I support it? Hard to say. I don't like forcing my views on others, especially when the level of use in agriculture dwarfs what happens on our allotment field. The issue may not arise. I think we may soon have no one with the necessary certificates / training to allow purchase and use.
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I agree that commercial farming use dwarfs any effects of use on allotments and in private gardens. I don't want to get all tin-foil-hat on everyone here either - and I certainly don't want to impinge on anyones rights to do what they think is best on their own plots.
It may prove harmless to humans, it may even have little effect on insects. But we've just had news in from Germany that flying insect numbers are down by 75% from the population in 1990 ... I don't know about you but that scares the willies out of me! Big commercial glyphosate use definitely reduces the amount of flowering plants (weeds) - that's its purpose ... and that's also what feeds many of these insects, many of which are pollinators! Monoculture isn't enough - our farming methods now demand a pristine field devoid of anything which isn't crops. To suggest this doesn't affect the hedges and margins is silly - my allotment got nuked by glyphosate drift from the farmer despite being beyond the field margins and many of the smaller, rarer hedgerow weeds are dying out in just such a habitat.
Add in the neonicotinoids used on crops definitely killing insects, industrial farming soil erosion and probably other factors as yet undiscovered and we are sitting on an absolute time bomb.
If, like me, you are suspicious when you read that something is "definitely safe" and "definitely breaks down 100%" in the soil within 24hrs then you should probably place a keen eye on where the money comes from to fund such results - you should keep an eye on who is lobbying the politicians that say "yes this is safe" ... you should also trust your own experience when your neighbour puts glyphosate along the fence line (which is systemic and breaks down in 24hrs to a non active substance) and then your lovage and oregano plants 3 foot from the fence line begin to die from weedkiller type symptoms 2 weeks later!
But back to farming ... I certainly want the right to choose not to eat crops 'ripened' by glyphosate until I am absolutely certain it isn't going to harm me!
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I do not know of any alternatives. For me things like aminopyralid certainly seemed to do much more harm and last much much longer. But I agree some people seem to use far too much. Aminopyralid was supposed to breakdown quickly in the soil but here it look more than two years. It takes longer in certain soil types but I could never get out of Dow which types that meant. So the original testing did not include every type of soil. The worms were far to sensible to go near it.
I do not like the thought of weedkillers like Glyphosate being sprayed on crops such as wheat to make it ripen more evenly. It might breakdown in the soil but this never sees the soil and ends up in bread etc. I very much hope there will be a ban on preharvest spraying of weedkillers.
I used Glyphosate last year because my allotment had become covered in nettles, and they have now grown back from the roots, and I am now digging them out the old fashioned way with a spade and elbow grease. So apart from couch grass which invades from the surrounding paths I am not going to use it. So not only did I contaminate my plt with weedkillers it was unsuccessful.
It is not easy to see if it is spreading to other plots. I watched one guy spraying and a considerable amount blew onto the next plot. He was totally unaware that it was drifting, and had chosen quite a still day, yet viewed from a distance you could see drifts of fine spray heading onto the runner beans next door. Every year he sprayed his plot with weedkiller. And now he has cancer. Maybe a coincidence maybe not.
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EU studies involving scientists in several member nations have found the glyphosate is present in water supplies and having an adverse effect on wildlife. In countries where Monsanto has sold GM crop seeds of plants bred to be resistant to glyphosate, farmers are using higher concentrations of g'phate to combat weeds and now clusters of cancers and birth deformities are being recorded in those areas. I would not, on principle, use any Monsanto product because of this combined with their policy of locking farmers into exclusive contracts and suing others whose crops prove to have Monsanto genes thru cross pollination. Immoral and amoral company.
Here in France it will be illegal as of 1/1/18 and sales are already restricted with the products containing it being held in locked displays. Our new veggie plot is full of weeds since we had it leveled and harrowed. I tried an unbranded g'phate spray but it was ineffective. The locals tell me that the bindweed, dock, mallow and other weeds will need something stronger anyway so we're gradually covering what will be the paths with weed fabric and the future raised beds have been covered with cardboard and compost. Anything that defies that lot will be hoed or pulled till it gives in.
Don't want chemicals on soil producing stuff to eat.
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Who is right, neither , but what if....
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/oct/24/eu-brink-historic-decision-pervasive-glyphosate-weedkiller
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Who is right, neither , but what if....
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/oct/24/eu-brink-historic-decision-pervasive-glyphosate-weedkiller
A quote from that headline "Glyphosate is found in 60% of our bread"
... so if it's not broken down by being milled in to flour, made in to dough, baked and put on a shelf in a shop for days ... how come it is supposed to break down within a couple of days in the soil? I don't believe it does.
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A ban on the herbicide glyphosate, sold commercially by Monsanto as Roundup - along with more transparent scientific evaluations of pesticides and a overall reduction in their use - should be an EU priority, citizens said on Monday (20 November) at the European Parliament. The petition was part of a initiative signed by over 1.3 million Europeans ahead of the final vote (27 November) by EU member states on a five-year renewal of the glyphosate licence, due to expire on 15 December.
"There is a wide consensus" about the cancerogenity of glyphsate, Mika Leandro from the Citizen's Commitee said during the debate, which is worrying since "it is found literally everywhere", including in bread and baby food.
If the majority of Europeans took a urine test, they can expect it to be positive for glyphosate, Leandro added.
The toxicity of glyphosate and 'the domino effect' it has on the environment makes the herbicide a "killer machine", said Franziska Achterberg, Greenpeace EU food policy director, speaking at the European Parliament.
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This has turned into a not always friendly debate about glyphosate, when we were just asked in the beginning if allotment committees could/should ban it unilaterally.
It's going nowhere now..
The EU or our own Government will decide if it remains legal to use it, or not, and no amount of links to articles or quoting from them will alter that, or most people's opinions.
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Plot 18 , Apologises, Yes I do seem to have the bit between my teeth , It was the "urine, babies , and bread " that angered me ... One tends to hear more and more of health issues these days . pressure on services , millions of sick people ... can it all be down to germs, diet, life style etc....
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Talking about risks what about soil itself. It contains lots of nasties including Clostridium tetani (tetanus) Clostridium botulinum (botulism) Clostridium perfringens (the trots) and Bacillus anthracis (anthrax). These can give you all sorts of unpleasant things like gangrene, paralysis, death. Don't rule out anthrax, it can lay dormant for centuries. It emerged in Wiltshire in 2015. So who thinks all allotments should be closed down until full soil assessments are made, and the site is certified safe. Perhaps someone should bring this up at their next allotment meeting?
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OK - back to the original question - I don't think committees should ban legally available products unless they're willing and able to declare a site completely organic. Even then there would be products allowed that I wouldn't use.
As for current demands on the health service - most are caused by poor lifestyle - drunkenness, smoking, obesity, excess fats and sugars and insufficient vitamins and minerals in their diet . we wouldn't expect to harvest good crops from malnourished plants so why do people expect malnourished bodies to stay well? Then there are all those people using the NHS instead of their common sense. You don't need antibiotics for a cold. You don't need A&E for a headache.
Have you heard the reports of 999 services being overwhelmed by idiot West Ham fans depressed about their team losing and not knowing what to do about it? Get a grip!
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"Have you heard the reports of 999 services being overwhelmed by idiot West Ham fans depressed about their team losing and not knowing what to do about it? Get a grip!"
[/quote]
TIC
Any shortage of allotments in West Ham?
Could be a better landuse!!
Now what have we got that will kill grass?
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This glyphosate thread has been posted in a U.S fruit growing forum I follow.
http://growingfruit.org/t/roundup-and-cancer-no-firm-link-new-study/13303/4 (http://growingfruit.org/t/roundup-and-cancer-no-firm-link-new-study/13303/4)
A link to a huge multi year study on agricultural workers, their glyphosate use and cancer incidence. There report found no link whatsoever.
https://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/50921/title/Long-term-Study-Finds-That-the-Pesticide-Glyphosate-Does-Not-Cause-Cancer/ (https://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/50921/title/Long-term-Study-Finds-That-the-Pesticide-Glyphosate-Does-Not-Cause-Cancer/)
The commenters suggest there may be a difference between what may be termed "pure" glyphosate (rosate36 for example) and branded. (roundup etc)
I read an article a couple of years ago from the so called "green lobby" Where they openly admitted trying to hurt Monsanto financially with glyphosate mentioned specifically. They are strongly against that company because of its links to GM crops.
Personally I am sceptical about most things written by journos in newspapers, particularly on scientific matters. As Plot 18 says it is a good idea to do your own research taking in both sides of the argument. :happy7:
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I once took part in a medical study. It was to do with the effects of anesthetics on people with a particular syndrome. Several members of the group had experienced problems. So we were given questionaires. At least 5 people had experienced issues. But when the report of the study was published the total number of questionaires had been substantially reducted and most of those with problems had for a variety of spurious reasons been excluded. This left one problem which was lower than the normal statistically expected level.
I have never trusted a medical study since.
And precisely who paid for the study on Glyphosate. Monsanto? He who pays the piper.....
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One of the commenters asked the same question as you, Digeroo. Who paid for the study. Another poster replied:
" The study is a collaborative effort involving investigators from National Cancer Institute, the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences, the Environmental Protection Agency, and the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health."
Of course the same question applies to the "glyphosate causes cancer" report. Who paid for it?
I agree with you entirely you cannot trust one report and while it is human nature to want to believe things that fit ones own prejudices it pays to be sceptical of all claims, studies and reports at least until further evidence becomes available. Truly independent if possible.
Your own very interesting and educational experience bears this out surely. :happy7:
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With all the current coverage of glyphosate health issues i am surprised A4A members are not concerned , no posts recently . Perhaps every plot shed in the country has some .. I hope again to propose a ban at our AGM , perhaps a list of banned / permitted chemicals on site would be a way to go . Given that some UK councils , and some countries , have banned it already and the WHO says "It possibly carcinogenic " is it worth the risk.
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Hi Ya, I think everyone is watching the results as it could be some over zealous person causing all the fuss. Some times weedkiller is the only way to go in certain circumstances and I will admit to using it on the odd occasion. As for getting it banned on the site I would strongly oppose that. In fact I would ignore the ban. It is up to the individuals wether they use it or not and for them to take care as per instructions. There are worse things being used by farmers as the honey bee population will testify like nicotinoids. That is a cause worth fighting. As for glysophate what you buy in the shop is so diluted compared to what professionals use it only does so much. I will continue to monitor but certain parties tend to over exaggerate some stages and should stick to their own. We could always go back to older remedies like ammonium sulphamate.
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There are no more comments because people have already stated their own point of view, so nothing else to discuss.
Mine is still the same..
"Is it worth the risk" is for individuals to decide as long as the product remains legal. To have it banned would need most members to agree.
I've not actually seen any reports of allotments banning it unless they are the ones that voted to go totally organic.
Voting for going organic is a different point to banning Glyphosate - not many people want their site to be totally organic, but the people who do often shout the loudest on allotment forums. No offence intended just stating the obvious....
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Hi plot 18, you make your point , however " individuals to decide " would mean my plot neighbour , can spray with any dilution of glyphosate he fancies, it carries on to my strawberries bed , and so when my granddaughter eats them straight off the plant.. she is eating poison... perhaps best to close the stable door before the horse has bolted..
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Best to move your strawberry bed away from your boundaries so you don't have to worry about it, would be my advice tbh.
If he is actually spraying over your plot, then you have the right to report him, to make sure he applies the stuff correctly, however, you don't have the right to tell him that he cannot spray at all, sorry.
I think your best bet would be to look for a plot/site somewhere else that better suits your ideals, as you feel so strongly about it.
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My point of view hasn't really changed since the last time I posted in the thread - and I don't see the discussion going anywhere apart from having the potential to get heated which isn't really why I'm on this forum!
I have seen the news, but it's only really one legal case in America - and not new research.
My allotment neighbour who uses Roundup has begun using a far better technique to avoid drift and contamination. He's moved from a pressure sprayer to a hand trigger spray gun, and now he puts a milk carton with the bottom cut off over target plants and squirts through the top. I'm pretty confident that this is a fairly safe and drift free method of using glyphosate.
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That sounds like a careful approach but surely as time consuming and labour intensive as just pulling or hoeing the offenders.
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It is 2018, and we live in a world of science and technology that would have been unimaginable even when I was a boy. Technology has advanced more in the last three decades than in the previous three thousand years. And it presents us all with challenging decisions, because we have seen numerous examples where technology has got it wrong.
From asbestos in buildings to thalidomide, lead in petrol to contaminated blood products, phthalates in plastics to mercury build up in fish when technology is used without safeguards or any respect for the environment and science is done badly the effects for us all can be pretty apalling.
But equally science can be brilliant and hugely beneficial. The benefits of antibiotics and vaccination for mankind overall have been huge notwithstanding a few very rare bad reactions. From cochlea implants to CAT scans, computers to mobile phones, materials like carbon fibre to producing your own electricity from solar panels it is integral to the way we live today and mainly beneficial.
Now generally, we should rely on science and here I mean good science reported in the best journals and subject to careful and rigorous peer review. But the ordinary man in the street does not have access to this material. Even if we did it is unlikely we would understand it. Instead we have to rely on secondary reports often by journalists who have barely a clue about science, and worse numerous sources that have vested financial interests but equally bad quite a lot of internet sources that are simply crackpot. It is hugely difficult to know which sources to trust.
But for all the current uncertainty about the safety of glyphosate one thing is absolutely certain, longer term science will arrive at the truth. Nothing is more certain. Science probes, it advances, it makes new findings and it constantly re-examines. A topic as important and contentious as this will continue to attract close scrutiny until it is eventually resolved.
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I work on the basis that if there was a complete ban on Glysophate in 2018 and a graph of death rates 10 years before the ban and 10 years after were presented before a team of statistical experts in 2028 I'll bet not one of them would be able to spot a significant change dating from 2018. Of course you will always have the let's ban it just in case it harms people, but then again when trains were first introduced the naysayers believed that people would melt at those high speeds and ladies uteruses would fly out. luckily most people are pragmatic, and try to ignore the greeny bandwagoners, and embrace modern advances that makes life so much more enjoyable.
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Glyphosate
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In a nutshell I would say the benefits of Glyphosate is huge and proven the risks minimal (if anything) - a bit like mass immunisation of children really.
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Nodig .. Quoting things like , People on trains melting and the like has no relevance. like the fact it was believed in the past DDT was OK, or mercury is harmless. Glyphosate interferes with your gut bacteria, not your human cells , It is possibly safe for humans , but we are not all 100% human we need a healthy gut to survive . spray your weedkiller , wear a mask, wash your produce, and keep it to your plot.
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I'm glad you mention DDT picman, another strory of a fantastic life saving product banned under the weight of a national hysteria in the USA created by a fake news book written by an anti science writer Rachel Carson. In fact a 7 monthe scientific hearing set up by the USA government concerning DDT came to the conclusion that "DDT is not carcinogenic, mutagenic, or teratogenic to man".
Here is Wikipedia - DDT is classified as "moderately toxic" by the US National Toxicology Program (NTP) and "moderately hazardous" by WHO. Indirect exposure is considered relatively non-toxic for humans. So you see DDT was never the monster killer that you want us to believe, people didn't melt when they sprayed it or even eat it, and India's and China's population doesn't seem to be in decline does it? Carry on saving the world picman - you are doing a good job.
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Unfortunately for the birds it did affect their ability to make strong eggshells and raptors, the highest up the food chain, were worst affected. It is taking dceades for populations to recover.
Gardening, agriculture and chemicals are not just about humans. Think of the birds and, especially, the bees too.
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Roads have a flattening effect on Hedgehogs but have we banned roads yet?
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Road accidents kill people too. The trick is to avoid accidents and disasters by careful thought and planning but no-one can legislate for sheer stupidity.
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The significant change is comparing numbers of allergies and other problems, like children with ADHD now and 50 years ago. And ponder the changes.
Looking at the cocktail of agrichemicals (each one looked at on its own is not considered harmful!) as well as air pollution due to the rise in number of cars, micro plastics in the seafood we eat and suddenly we have a massive increase in severe asthma, rise in cancer rates, allergies, hayfever, lower sperm count and a whole lot more.
So yes, I agree, in isolation these poisons and nerve agents, if used correctly, are not a problem. But cumulative and in addition to everything else also going on, they are a likely contributor. There never has been and never can be, a study that can look at all these factors together and we do not have a time machine. There have been studies that cancer rates are much lower in pristine wilderness areas and I recall another that showed that Danish organic farmers had much higher sperm count than their non-organic colleagues.
And if we don't absolutely 'have to' use these sprays, then we probably shouldn't. :wave:
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It does get rid of bindweed but nettles come back from the roots. There is a suggestion that it causes cancer.
One of our plot holders who was very keen on the stuff, spraying clouds of it about the place, has recently died of cancer. I know one case is not good for statistical analysis. But it puts me off even more.
I wish people would use less, a hoe is better.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45155788
What worries me is how much farmers are using. The spraying of wheat to help ripen it makes me glad I do not eat wheat.
Here are some Monsanto companies to avoid
https://www.thealternativedaily.com/monsanto-owned-companies-to-boycott/
Patent on glyphosate has now expired.
Monsanto taken over by Bayer.
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Doesn't kill our bindweed! Tried it. Nor does drought! Now we dig and mow and hoe and strim and curse.
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I certainly done a lot of cursing at bindweed, that certainly does not work but have had success with glyphosate. Bindweed appeared in the hedge and got only inches from my plot. :BangHead: :BangHead:
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We have acres of the stuff, along with apple mint. It is less vertically inclined than the stuff we had in our Belgian garden and rpoduces many more curly white underground stems from a thick brown root. Total PITA.
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Unfortunately for the birds it did affect their ability to make strong eggshells and raptors, the highest up the food chain, were worst affected. It is taking dceades for populations to recover.
Gardening, agriculture and chemicals are not just about humans. Think of the birds and, especially, the bees too.
Well said. We share this earth with all other creatures, we have a duty to them too. Rachel Carson's book was required reading in my biology A level and I still stand by its conclusions.
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Yes ants have equal rights until they try and get into my house and then they get zapped - I hope I am not upsetting the delicate eco system of mother earth. My mate Bob said the best way to save pandas is to start selling panda meat in the supermarkets - lots of panda farms - lots of panda meat - lots of pandas - A world in perfect harmony.