Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => The Basics => Topic started by: FennelandFern on June 22, 2009, 16:31:59
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what are the procedures on sharing allotment plots? I have been offered a share of a plot from someone who has more room than she needs. Want to make sure she isn't going to get into trouble for letting me grow my own stuff on there...
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I'm not really sure hope someone comes along to help.I do share a plot with my friend but we both signed the agreement when we took the plot over.
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We are private (ie not council) and you would have to inform the committee and be put on the contract. Informally this is often done retrospectively but technically you are jumping the queue so I suspect (depending on what she has signed) that she would be in breach for subletting..
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Are you stiil friends Bunny. :-X ;D ;D ;D
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hmm that's what I'm worried about...I don't want to cause problems. If I'm not paying her for the plot, does that make any difference?
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Generally, your friend will not be allowed to sublet her plot - so she would be breaking the rules if you paid her rent. There is no reason you cannot help her out with her plot, but the committee may take a poor view of your taking on some of her area. If you work it all between you I think there'd be no problem.
If there is a waiting list on the site, then strictly speaking she should give up the half you're taking on to the next person on the list. It really depends on how the site is run.
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On our site, you wouldn't be allowed to take on part of someone else's plot. It's jumping the queue if there is a waiting list. She should really give up the space she doesn't need so that it can be allocated to the next entitled person on the list.
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Our council policy is: If you assist somebody with their plot on our site, they decide to give up for example... then you are off too. You have no rights to remain on the plot if it was not in your name. It is reallocated regardless of how long you may of worked it.
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I share a plot with a mate. I wouldn't advise it, you can never share the amount of time you spend there or really share the costs. If i were to start again i would say right thats my half and thats yours, if he did'nt put the effort in it my name on the agreement so he would have to go.
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I'm on a council site. My lottie neighbour is getting on and has recently suffered with ill health. Rather than give his plot up he offered me 3/4 of it three years ago. No money exchanged hands. We natter a lot and I gave him some spuds and sweet williams for his wife. He is now a lot better and has taken 1/4 back so I now tend 1/2 his plot for him. Again no money exchanges hands. Some people on the site disapprove (often the ones on the committee who have two plots already but think my neighbour should give his plot up for a new person rather than me)
I accept that if he gives the plot up AT ANY TIME I will loose the half I have worked on. I know that and take that risk. Its worth it for all the gardening gems he comes out with. For example this week I had a lesson on ripening onions by bending the stems over. The week before we were feeling how hot his compost was because he was given a shredder... I hope he last another 30 years, I might become a half decent gardener :-)
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On our council run site we have several people who share allotments I believe they informed the council, on the other hand we have an allotment holder who shares but the agreement was changed to split the allotment into two so both people have an accountant, :)
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Sharing is often unsatisfactory as normally only one person has the right to the plot, and often one ends up doing all the work. If you're doing it get your name on the waiting list as well, and treat it as a temporary arrangement.
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Im sure it was Unwashed (forgive me Unwashed if it wasnt) who pointed us in the direction of unfair conditions in contracts, and one of those unfair conditions is to say that when renting you cannot sublet.
SO yes you can sublet part of your allotment, and if your contract says you cant then its unfair and not legal.
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Ishard, do you mind explaining that a bit more? Thanks guys for all your input: I really appreciate it. The last thing I want to do is to cause any problems, so your feedback is really useful in helping me work out what to do!
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Im sure it was Unwashed (forgive me Unwashed if it wasnt) who pointed us in the direction of unfair conditions in contracts, and one of those unfair conditions is to say that when renting you cannot sublet.
SO yes you can sublet part of your allotment, and if your contract says you cant then its unfair and not legal.
I'd check that out with a lawyer first before you rely on it to obtain a plot. Unwashed kindly answered some questions I had on this and other matters. My take on it is that over the years allotment rental contracts have generally included a no sub-letting clause to preclude the development of a secondary market in plots where the highest bidder gets the plot. Allotments were provided to enable those of limited means to grow food so allowing people who can afford it to buy a plot defeats the purpose.
The no sub-letting rule has been implemented by councils up and down the land (and on private sites too). I can't see that all those highly paid council lawyers have got this so wrong. I also can't see that Trading Standards are going to be remotely interested in intervening on behalf of someone who wants to sub-let their plot.
The letter of the law MIGHT enable a plot to be sub-let, whether it could or would actually ever be enforced is a different matter altogether.
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it's quiet simple realy
a full plot is in the name of the contracted person signed up . that person is responsable for the full plot. there are rules that do not alow profit making ie seling produce from an allotment .
and i can't find anywere that help in any rules and regs that a friend cannot help you on your allotment
so as long as you understand that if the legal plot owner has full rights and that you understand that if at any time the legal plot owner has to give it up at any time for what ever reason . you will have to give it up aswell
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dont worry . ive got more to say on this subject
8)
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FenlandFern the unfair conditions are coverd by the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1999.
Hope this helps
Ish :)
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On our Council owned site, sub-letting is not allowed but we do have people who share a plot with a friend but they have no rights to the plot if the friend gives up and if at any time the plot or part of it isn't cultivated we would chase up the person whose name is on the tenancy agreement. We recently had an instance where someone keeps chickens on half their five rod plot and had kept the other half as grass (which they kept tidy) but talking to our field secretary who mentioned our long waiting list, said he'd be prepared to let someone have his 'lawn' area for growing crops so put him in touch with someone from our waiting list; we made the 'sharer' aware that he wouldn't have any tenancy rights and he was happy with that as it got him at least a part plot.
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haha turns out I'm far more anxious than I need to be! Have just chatted to my friend, and apparently she's got it all vetted with her site rep and everything! So it looks like I'm going to be allotmenteering as well as potagering very soon! Yeah!
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PS - re subletting and unfair terms - a "no subletting" clause would not generally automatically be regarded as an unfair term, although it might be depending on what else was in the contract. It's a very common term in residential tenancy agreements, where it is entirely enforceable. (My day job is to give advice on this sort of thing btw) The OFT website has a useful section on the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 1999 with lots of guidance if anyone wants to know more. (Bear in mind that the Tenancy Agreement Guidance on the site is talking about Assured/Assured Shorthold tenancies and not allotment tenancies, so a lot of it will not be directly relevant)
I would definitely get legal advice before trying to argue that a "no subletting" clause is unenforceable due to unfairness. The plotholder (not the subtenant) would need to show that the existence of the term was causing a significant imbalance in their rights and obligations versus the rights and obligations of the allotment landlord, and also that this was causing them detriment, and that it was contrary to the requirements of good faith. I think this would be hard to do in the case of the average allotment "no subletting" contract term. The safest way forward would be to either sign up as joint tenants, or to split the plot into two bits with separate tenancies. Or if this is not possible, to keep the whole thing informal between the tenant and the "helper", with no money changing hands.
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Sorry corney Just read your message. Yes still friends all sorted ::) working together and doing a great job even if we do say so ourselves ;D ;D ;D
Lucy
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It goes to show how a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I did think (http://www.netlawman.co.uk/info/unfair-terms-tenancy-agreements-1.php) that the UTiCCR 1999 made no sub-letting terms unfair, but Electric Landlady's right, the OFT guidance (http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/unfair_contract_terms/oft356.pdf) isn't so definitive. If it's important to you you could always make a complaint to Trading Standards and see what they say. My local Trading Standards are prepared to take enforcement action against my own council over unfair rent increases, so don't assume the council are always right.
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Hi Lucy, I'm glad everythings hunkydory on the plot. ;D ;D ;D
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That wouldn't happen on my site as it's effectively Q jumping and if the people on the waiting list knew about it there'd be trouble. Whoever's okay'd it may not be in a position to do so.
Having only recently got my plot after a verrrrry long wait, I wouldn't in all conscience be able to do what you've just done.
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I'm 128th on the waiting list for a plot! When I asked the very nice council lady, just today, how I could climb up the list a bit faster, she suggested that I visit the site and make enquiries as to whether anyone is willing to name me on his/her tenancy agreement as a "partner". If I then work the plot with that person for over a year, I can have first refusal if he/she decides to give up the plot. This is in the rules, and so I am happy to think that I may have a chance at getting my hands on some soil. I went to the site this afternoon, and have left my contact number with a very amenable chap who promised to speak to the Association Secretary on my behalf, as well as having a word in an elderly chap's ear- he's really struggling but doesn't want to give up his site yet.
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Hi gwynnethmary and welcome to A4A :)
And I hope you get your hands dirty (so to speak) soon ! ;) ;D and do let us know how you get on as I'm sure there are lots of people on this site who would be interested to see how it all works out for you.
1066
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There could be endless problems if subletting was automatically allowed. You don't know who it's going to be sublet to, whether they're going to work the plot or behave in a reasonable matter, or anything. Doubtless a compromise could be reached, but councils often seem to be rigidly attached to a list of rules which are probably drawn up by some lawyer who's never set foot on an allotment in their life.
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I share my plot, but i share it with my inlaws who are using a portion of the back to grow their potatoes, they're not paying me for it but are helping me clear it and will be giving me all the seed pot's i need to grow my own (no doubt they will provide me with various seeds/plants during the season curtosey of their market trader friends).
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Perhaps I've got it wrong, but I understood that sub-letting was illegal under the Allotments Act?
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Trevor, it was originally prohibited by S27(4) of the Small Holdings and Allotments Act 1908, but that was amended by the Land Settlement (Facilities) Act 1919 so that subletting with permission is possible.
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Hi all!
I'm being very proactive in trying to get my hands onh an allotment. I went to the association meeting last night and spoke to the secretary, who has already rung me this morning to tell me he ihas been on to the council on my behalf (i.e Why has this lady been told that these plots have been taken when they clearly are not being worked, and why are there so many more neglected plots than the council are owning up to? etc) I've just come back from the site, and one of the "plotters" there has also been working on my behalf, and it looks like I may be on my way to a plot share! Yippee! I will keep you posted on the outcome.
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Fingers crossed for you gwynnethmary !
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I am very happy! Today I spent my first two hours filling fourteen bags of broken glass, bits of burnt wood and metal and other assorted rubbish from the plot I am now working as a partner (although I still need to get the official paperwork done). I realise that I may end up doing a lot of work to have nothing at the end of it, except a great sense of satisfaction in a job well done, and loads of good experience, which are actually really good things to have as end products. I'm also making new friends and meeting people I would never normally get to mix with - it's all good stuff! If the plotholder drags his heels over doing it all officially I realise I will have to walk away from it, but I'll have learnt lots in the process.
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Gwynnethmary good for you on having a realistic outlook, which hopefully will prove worthwhile!
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So the old broken-glass fairies have visited your plot too - they do get around, don't they.
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And the broken pot fairy- I'll never need any more drainage pieces material for plantpots!
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good to hear you have got started gwynnethmary ! And what a great outlook on the sharing a plot thing you have! Keep it going and just keep your name on the lists at the same time ;)
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I am very happy! Today I spent my first two hours filling fourteen bags of broken glass, bits of burnt wood and metal and other assorted rubbish
Isn't it amazing what brings us happiness? It can be found in the most surprising places! There's nothing like a bit of job satisfaction on a job well done! Congratulations, great attitude! ;D
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Nice one Mary, but do keep your name on the list. ;D ;D ;D
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Just an update- I've finally managed to track down the plotholder whose allotment I was hoping to be a partner on. It turns out he isn't the official tenant, and hasn't been for the last 12 years! he "bought" the plot from someone and just put his own address on the forms, so he gets all the paperwork and pays the rent, but in the other guy's name. He's even won prizes in is name at the annual show (cerificates on shed wall!) It's amazing the lengths people will go to to avoid officialdom! Anyway, I've given him back his keys, with a certain amount of regret, but he has my 'phone number, and I've told him that if he ever gets round to changing the tenancy to get back in touch with me. I at least feel I've done the right thing, and his plot's a bit tidier after 3 trips to the dump! So, it's back to the long wait, but, in the meantime, thanks to you lot on here, I'm enthused enough to having a go with growing some veg in containers in the garden.
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What a shame after all that effort.
I suppose you still could have worked it till somebody says that you can't.Not very satisfactory but maybe better than nothing ???
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i knew there was something iffy about this from the start. how this kind of thing happens is beyond me,i would never allow it on our site,its people like you who suffer in the long run. good luck with your containers for now and i hope you soon have your very own plot.
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That's a shame! I suppose if that had to happen better now than later. Good luck with the container growing and fingers crossed that you'll get a plot soon.
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gwynnethmary - what a disappointment for you and sorry to hear it didn't work out
Fingers crossed for you and your containers :)
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am beginning to get enthused about my as yet imaginary containers and where I can position them- I can see it all in my mind's eye! To me, that's the most interesting part of any project- the planning and anticipation. I already have some sweet peas coming up from the seed I collected last week, and have a plan for growing them with runner beans in the border- another idea I picked up from my A$A surfing. I've spent many happy hours planning my allotment, and am sure it won't be wasted in the long term. I can also devote my time and attention in the meantime to sorting out the sensory garden at the special school where I worked until I retired last year. Thank you all for your support and encouragement.
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I still grow a fair amount in containers in the garden - toms, cuccumbers, salads, aubergines (hope for a better crop next year), herbs, strawberries, blueberries etc etc. And up at my plot I have plastic container boxes for carrots and parsnips. Container growing can be very productive and satisfactory 8)
Happy growing ;D