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Allotment Stuff => The Basics => Topic started by: antipodes on May 22, 2007, 10:48:23

Title: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: antipodes on May 22, 2007, 10:48:23: I have been wondering this for a while: how do people keep their plantations so weed free? Mine is full of small seedlings and since I am a newbie and can hardly recognize most seedlings, I am loath to weed as I might damage the babies!!
But how do you weed anyway? I have lots of bindweed that I have been resorting to pulling out by hand on all fours, but I can't do 100 m2 like that can I? How do I clear weeds from in between the rows? All the other gardeners on my site seem to have zero weeds where they have planted, I don't understand how they manage this? Sorry that this seems like a thick question, but there must be a technique that I don't know about??
The weeds I get are mostly bindweed :-[ thistles, groundsel and some small leafy thing that i cannot identify. oh and clover but I tend to just rip handfuls of that off and not worry about the roots.
Help! I don't want to be over run with weeds now that I have managed to plant most of my things and my number one objective is to at least keep the plot tidy even if I haven't been able to "landscape it" properly :(
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: tin can on May 22, 2007, 11:21:04: I wonder if you are using the ground for veg for the first time??
It does take a few years for the weed seeds to germinate before they slow down a bit!!
I weed mostly by hand as I find unless I hoe on a sunny day, that a lot of the seedlings reroot.
Also chopping off plants like dock and dandelions doesn't initially get rid of them.
By hoeing, you are also bringing fresh weed seeds nearer to the surface and encouraging them to grow. I suppose at least that could be a good thing as they will then be disposed of!
Using manure which is not well rotted can also introduce weed seeds.
It is a bit of a battle, especially at this time of the year but they will slow down as your established plants cover the soil!
I think the secret is not to peak at the other plots and then you'll be happier with your plot! ;)
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: antipodes on May 22, 2007, 12:52:12: Yes it is the first year I have the plot. I guess that is why I seem to have so many weeds, how annoying. It wouldn't be so bad if I could identify them all, I have tried web sites but I could really do with an old hand to come and say "get rid of that and that, oh that will die off by itself" etc etc.
How exactly do you use the hoe? That seems like an exceptionally stupid question but I couldn't ask one of the other gardeners to show me, I would be far too embarrassed to admit my ignorance!!
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: bennettsleg on May 22, 2007, 13:04:34: I can empathise: this is my second year and last year's weeds were awful. So here goes:

Cover all areas that you're not using with weed suppressant cloth to stop them getting out of hand.

Bindweed will keep on coming back unless you either dig out all the very fragile roots in one piece or let it grow a bit, tie it in a knot, stamp all over it in a hissy fit, cut the bottom half off a 2Litre pop bottle, sink the cut edge into the ground over the bind weed, put the nozzle of your chosen poison into the bottle neck and spray away. Leave the bottle in place. Repeat weekly - including the stamping. It's the only way I've managed to clear this stuff, particularly from between crop rows.

Every time you visit the plot, pull off the heads of flowering weeds and burn them or put them in your domestic bin. Weeds can still release seeds even when pulled from the plant. "One year's seeding is 7 year's weeding!"

Get as much of the roots out as possible for dandilions, thistles and other perennial weeds otherwise they may come back.

After all this rain is the perfect time for weeding as the ground's soft enough to let go of the roots.

I have found a hand tool that has three curved prongs at the end of it very usefull indeed. It was the only thing that let me make good progress at weeding my allium bed this weekend. You can get up close and personal with each weed without damaging your crop, the prongs go deep enough to disturb the roots and you can even bash clods of earth with the back of the tool to break it up. Sorry - I have no clue what the proper name is!

Just remember: you can't do it all at once, keep on going, cover what you can, and remember that the weed-free plots are probably held by people who spend a significant portion of their week on their plot!
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: saddad on May 22, 2007, 16:33:37: and take the long view... only good fertile soil supports loads of plants/weeds
;D
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: Jeannine on May 22, 2007, 17:31:48: Saddad, I think my soil must be better than on the south side of the River Jordan then.

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on May 22, 2007, 20:56:40: The best way to avoid weeds is not to dig, and to keep the surface covered with mulch.
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: legendaryone on May 22, 2007, 21:31:36: Quote from: bennettsleg on May 22, 2007, 13:04:34
I have found a hand tool that has three curved prongs at the end of it very usefull indeed. It was the only thing that let me make good progress at weeding my allium bed this weekend. You can get up close and personal with each weed without damaging your crop, the prongs go deep enough to disturb the roots and you can even bash clods of earth with the back of the tool to break it up. Sorry - I have no clue what the proper name is!

Hi bennetsleg, the tool you are using is called a cultivator and you can long handled versions as well. I was using my long handled one to break up the large clods then i go over it with a rake to break the lumps eeven smaller :)
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: halibut-t on May 22, 2007, 23:16:50: Quote from: antipodes on May 22, 2007, 12:52:12
How exactly do you use the hoe?

Hi Antipodes, first point about hoes is there are more than one type. I find the best one for weeding (though others may challenge this [feel free]) is a Dutch hoe type. Mine was made by my Grandad years ago and has a flat 5"x2" blade on the end of a long (6') pole. The blade has been sharpened on both the leading and rear edges so it can cut in the forward push and the back pull (if that makes sense). All you do is lay the blade flat on the surface and push it forward say by a foot (depending on ground, vegetation, rocks etc) it will naturally dig itself in to a depth of about half an inch ish as you do (although this can vary depending on the head angle and or pole length [oh and how hard the ground is]) and all the weeds will be sliced off. then pull back the hoe to where you started and you will notice it will probably cut on the pull as well. Carry on like this as you see fit. As long as the hoe is sharp (mine is like a knife) then it tends to be effortless. I tend to leave the smaller weeds lying on the surface where they fall so the sun can dry them out (free mulch), others tend to gather them up, your call really.

hope this helps.

'H'
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: kt. on May 23, 2007, 00:13:37: Quote from: antipodes on May 22, 2007, 10:48:23
I have been wondering this for a while: how do people keep their plantations so weed free?

When I got my plot last year it was a jungle. I never planted anything at all but worked long and hard to dig everything out by hand. Many days, weekends, evenings. I started planting on this plot with overwintering onions. Now my plot is absolutely bursting with fruits & veg & salad crop.

My brassicas all have plastic collars around them. So this makes it easy to hoe between plants without harming them. When I sow seed - I leave the plum line in the ground for about 4 weeks until seeds germinate. I currently have 5 plum-lines in. This way I hoe between the plumlines so as not to disturb seedlings. It takes me a maximum of 10 minutes 2-3 times weekly to go between beds and how to keep weed free. As long as I keep on top of this - I can honestly say I have no weeds amongst any of my crop. I will post some photos on Thursday.
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: antipodes on May 23, 2007, 10:25:03: Oh.
This all explains quite a few things.
1. I should keep a better track of where I have sown seed! Then I would know where to weed!
2. Yeah, mulch - that has worked pretty well for the potatoes (except for some bindweed but I rip it out if it gets through the straw). Everyone knows that my weed suppressants are frowned on by the (crappy) site manager but I have been mulching what I can - spuds, toms, melon, pumpkin, squash. I know you are not supposed to mulch alliums, what about the root veg? They are only just seedlings for now.
3. Hoe. I have a hoe that is on a normal pole, it is about 20cm wide I would say and I have only just bought it, I dunno if it is sharp. SO I just put it on the top of the ground and pull it and it cuts off the weeds? I wasn't actually sure if it is meant to cut them or pull them out :-\
4. I don't think I could have left the plot under cover to kill the weeds, on the site where I am, if you do not cultivate immediately they chuck you out, which is why I had to throw myself into things and plant everywhere, without really being able to take time to prepare things properly. I did some bastard trenching in a couple of areas, and that has controlled the weeds a little but not entirely. I even get bindweed coming through the black plastic next to my strawbs!! I have to spend at least 10 mins each time ripping it out. Such a pain.
What intrigues me is that the bindweed was nowhere to be seen in the winter when I took the plot!!! Where does it go? Is there a time of year when it finally dies off???
Thanks for all the hints, this has been a useful question!!
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on May 23, 2007, 12:56:57: Bindweed dies back in late autumn. The hoe is too wide for delicate work between rows - get a narrower onion hoe as well. Keep it sharp; a blunt hoe is no use to anyone.
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: manicscousers on May 24, 2007, 15:12:21: we've got a hoe with a triangular shaped head, that's good between close crops, a half moon shaped hoe, we find that good for between onions, it's about 4" across..we get most of our tools from auctions or car boots so they're not expensive :)
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: kt. on May 24, 2007, 23:27:43: I have put some piccies of my weed free plot in THE GALLERY. Just for you.
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: antipodes on May 25, 2007, 10:12:30: Oh thanks! gosh my plot is just so messy compared to everyone else's! But I know that I didn't take enough time to properly line everything up and delimit the edges, that will be my goal in the winter when I won't be growing much apart from pumpkins, leeks, sprouts and salad stuff. In other words, my garden doesn't have well defined edges, it kind of melts into the paths around it. Mine is the only one that does that... :-[
Yes, I think that I don't have the right type of hoes for the job at hand, although I do have a hand version of that 3-pronged thing (cultivator) that bennetsleg was talking about. Maybe I could do the onions and garlic with that...
I have the hoe that is the last one on this page: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/gqt/hoe.shtml but maybe it is not truly useful?? I also have a type of pick mattock that I use to hack away the biggest weeds and loosen the ground to rip them up but that's not really appropriate now that stuff is growing.
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: halibut-t on May 26, 2007, 00:43:59: Quote from: antipodes on May 25, 2007, 10:12:30
I have the hoe that is the last one on this page: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/gqt/hoe.shtml but maybe it is not truly useful??

Hi Antipodes,

For general weeding between rows the second type on the list is probably going to be the easiest to get on with initially, though you will need to sharpen the edges, front and back (file, sander, grinder they all do the job well enough)

Cheers,

'H'
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: Rohaise on May 27, 2007, 18:40:41: Quote from: ktlawson on May 24, 2007, 23:27:43
I have put some piccies of my weed free plot in THE GALLERY. Just for you.
I,m off to have a peek ! Rohaise ;)
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: DadnDom on May 27, 2007, 19:43:28: My sympathies are with you, we just cut a plot out of grassland, now it is a sea of green seedlings....hardly any of them mine :(
Backbreaking work but keep at it, things can only get better.
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: Wasp_Box on May 28, 2007, 19:37:04: Quote from: Robert_Brenchley on May 22, 2007, 20:56:40
The best way to avoid weeds is not to dig, and to keep the surface covered with mulch.

I'm quite interested in the no-dig and surface mulch concept. It seems a sensible way of managing ground (and this is coming from the rotavator king!). Do you do this? How do you find it?

EDIT: Sorry, bit of a thread jack but anything that reduces the weeding....
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on May 28, 2007, 20:53:17: It's great for a lot of crops. If something's in the ground a long time you have to keep your eye on it as the mulch can all disappear, and then the weeds start growing. The other thing to be careful of is small seedlings. But used with care, it saves a load of work.
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: grawrc on May 28, 2007, 20:57:39: I must confess that weeding is my next most favourite thing after hoeing which is often weeding anyway. I went to my allotments yesterday for the first time in over a month and was pleasantly surprised to see that the weeds were not as awful as I had anticipated. Thanks to Charlie and Ian who haveclearly been busy in my absence.

I could just about make out the rows of beetroot, fennel and lettuce I sowed in the middle of April. I think there will need to be a fair amount of hand weeding before the emerge in all their beauty from the surrounding thistles etc.
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: Curryandchips on May 28, 2007, 21:01:41: Weeding is a pleasant task when the sun is beating down, I can kneel and take my time ... I see it as a method of harvesting mulch and benefitting crops with space at the same time ...

Derek :)
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: antipodes on May 29, 2007, 10:10:47: I admit that I don't really know what Robert is getting at with a no-dig method?? i was told that I had to turn all the soil over to more than a spade's depth and painstakingly dig out all the weeds and roots :-[ How can you plant without digging up an area?
I didn't think you could mulch everywhere?? So far I have put straw mulch around the spuds, the tomatoes and the squash/melons. I couldn't really mulch the root veg, they are too small yet. Can you mulch beans and peas?
I must admit that a thick layer of straw is much more aesthetically pleasing than bare ground and surely it must stop some of the smaller weed seedlings? I can see some bindweed coming through it in places though, but I just pull out what I can see in that case.
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: Spanner on May 29, 2007, 12:58:48: Hi antipodes,

When I started my lottie last year it was a complete mess and my beds were indistinguishable from the paths most of the time. This year I've used lawn edging plastic to form edges for beds and have stuffed straw down for paths. Its been a real improvement so far and is a relatively cheap and easy to move way to mark the beds until I can decide on the final pattern.
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on May 29, 2007, 13:05:27: There are ways of killing weeds off organically without digging at all, but I admit I dug for a while - and still do in some areas - until the perennial weeds are well under control and can be got out individually with the fork. Then I gleefully give up digging that area and mulch instead, giving me extra time and energy for the next bit. Some parts of the allotment haven't been dug for three or four years, and remain free of nasties.
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: grawrc on May 29, 2007, 18:22:29: Yes I have done lots of digging initially to break up soil that hadn't been dug in a long long time and to get rid of nasty weeds. But like the late great Supersprout I use weedsuppressant for paths and mulch like mad. Why dig when the worms can do it for you? My only problem is getting enough mulch material.
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: Wasp_Box on May 29, 2007, 18:51:25: Hi Robert,

Thanks for the reply. May I ask:

1. What you use as a mulch?

2. When do you mulch or do you plant into/through it?

3. Do you ever dig/rotavate or just keep adding to the mulch layer and let it get taken in?

Peter
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: grawrc on May 29, 2007, 19:17:29: 1. I use grass, straw, paper, compost and anything else that Ican. Sometimes hoed weeds.
2. I plant first, then mulch.
3. I never rotovate. I use the bed system so I never walk where i plant. The mulch, manure etc gets pulled into the soil by the worms. If I am changing layout or adding a new bed I dig first.
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on May 29, 2007, 22:15:47: I use vast amounts of grass cuttings, or dead leaves in winter; we get both delivered to the site, but not many plants can cope with stodgy masses of half-rotted grass so I tend to use it when it's fresh. I plant through it whenever I can, but obviously I can't do that when planting direct. Once a patch reaches the point where there are no perennial weeds, the only time I dig it is when I have roots to lift.
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: miniroots on May 30, 2007, 08:22:19: Hello Antipodes,

I'm guessing that the no dig method is most effective after you've conquered the persitant perennial weeds - things like bindweed will find a way through almost any depth of mulch! So maybe next season... or the one after.

I saw the pictures of your plot the other day - and it looks great! What a shame that your site give you all that pressure to cultivate it all straight away - when you should be congratulating yourself having done as much as you have. They say that it takes 7 - 10 years to get a plot to maximum productivity, so it's not fair to heap expectation on new plot holders.

I'm in season three on my plot now, and it doesn't looks a tidy as yours!

Good luck and don't let the bastard trenching get you down!
Title: Re: What exactly does "weeding" mean?
Post by: antipodes on May 31, 2007, 10:15:06: heavens, that was an encouraging reply! But there are a lot of weedy bits that I still have to deal with. And I must admit that the weather is absolutely rotten so everything is so slow, I am having quite a bit of trouble getting things to grow well. I think that over the winter I will need to feed the soil a bit. One of my neighbours gave me some broccoli plants yesterday, he had a thick bed of them that he is transplanting. I had sown some seed but the ones that have come up are only about an inch high :( He seems to have done a few seed beds like that, leeks for example, I want to do one but maybe this w'end, the weather has stopped me from gardening the last couple of attempts.
For now the only mulch material I have found is straw. But it is quite pretty when laid. I will have a go at hoeing again this weeknd, at least the alliums and the beans, using all the good advice given here! and will now be on the lookout for a Dutch hoe...