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Produce => Edible Plants => Topic started by: Number Six on August 20, 2013, 09:08:53
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Now reached that time of year when I watch my brassica crop (savoy cabbage, calabrese, colly and spouts) being chomped by caterpillars etc. Had some cheap Wilko netting over them which stopped the pigeons getting at them but not the butterflies - and then the sprouts outgrew the netting so I removed it and replaced it with 'dangling CDs'.
The colly and calabrese have already produced a good crop but I obviously need to do a re-think for next year to protect the cabbage & sprouts. Greatly appreciate any advice on netting or any other techniques for protecting brassicas.
Many thanks
John
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A very dilute solution of Jeyes fluid put in the planting hole when transplanting is a good deterrent.
http://www.rnzih.org.nz/Plant_Doctor/WG090_Jeyes_fluid.htm
http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=&oq=jeyes+fluid+on+ve&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4TEUA_enGB515GB485&q=jeyes+fluid+on+vegetables&gs_l=hp..0.0.0.0.0.18037...........0.oEPgN0aLBBo
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Builders debris netting will keep the butterflies off your brassicas.
http://www.scaffolding-direct.co.uk/debris-netting-3m-x-50m-green-.aspx
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Will be trying the debris netting next season.
Meanwhile my diluted bicarbonate of soda/detergent/salt mix sprayed on the brassicas three times a week or so is having positive results against the caterpillars again this year. :happy7:
Shh don't tell anyone but we pulled ten Supersmeltz kohl rabi today almost the size of footballs! :sunny:
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Same advice as Duke. Our first year , although we netted the brassicas with the cheap net the butterflies fold their wings to get through the mesh and they were completely wiped out by caterpillars. We had a large walk in cage made and covered with debris neting. Cabbages fine but we didn't give thought to the snow laying on the roof and the weight causing cage to collapse. With the next cage we made the top netting removable for the winter and now we have total success. No butterflies and no collapse so we are happy. We used green netting but now wish we had chosen black as it is less vsisble. Jeanbean
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I find the little critters seem to be getting under the netting. I thought it was just me, but there are very few without butterflies inside.
The other solutions is to check all the leaves for the yellows spots every two to three days and squash.
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Ours are laying the eggs on the outside of the netting where the leaf touches it, never had that before :BangHead:
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Many thanks to all for comments and excellent advice so far. Never thought of debris netting and had not heard about using a Jeyes solution. Much food for thought.
Meanwhile my diluted bicarbonate of soda/detergent/salt mix sprayed on the brassicas three times a week or so is having positive results against the caterpillars again this year. :happy7:
Ed - would you mind sharing details of your spray with us - what proportions of soda/detergent/salt/water do you use?
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Normally I just put a bit in of each and fill with water but if I were to put quantities to it there would be about a table spoonful of soda and salt with a squirt of washing up liquid, the cheap stuff, to about a gallon or gallon and a half of water.
With watering can and rose or sprayer apply to the brassica leaves about three times per week during the caterpillar season.
So why this mix?
Soda can be used as an effective insecticide and provides one prong of what is a three pronged attack . It wouldn't surprise me if the expensive "Bug Clear" products you get in the local Wilcos/QuickieMart turned out to be just diluted soda water or something similar. Wouldn't put it past them! :happy7:
Detergent is also active against pests as well as a wetting agent. Likely to help against cabbage aphid and brassica whitefly too.
Wild cabbages that all our brassicas descend are coastal plants so can take a little salt. Medwyn Williams, who displays his prizewinning veg at Chelsea and elsewhere side dresses his brassicas with salt claiming it makes them grow better. Dressing crops with salt is also sometimes recommended with beetroot and with asparagus, again coastal plants.
Caterpillars hate it and it will also help with slugs getting into the cabbages no doubt.
The effect of this mix is that the caterpillars it comes in contact with soon become desiccated even after they fall to the ground. (something they do as a defence mechanism). Any unsprayed ones that take a nibble of the mix soon succumb too. It's not 100% but provides good control cheaply.
Salt/soda and detergent are all chemicals of course. Yet how many cook veg in salt water or put it on food. Some also put bi-carb in their cooking water to preserve their greens colour. :happy7:
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Thanks Ed for that 'recipe' and information. :happy7: I agree with you that many of us already use salt and bi carb in cooking green veg and as for washing up liquid I bet there is many a residue left on pans, so all in all we would be doing nothing out of the ordinary. I intend to give this a go on the swedes. As I think they are amember of the brasssica family we were putting them in the cages but they were not really forming any sort of decent swede. Mary read they liked being in an open envirnoment so have done so and only covered with the cheap net. Guess where the CW congregate? Not rocket science, so we have a problem on them. Jeanbean
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And many thanks from me as well Ed. I will certainly be trying out your mix - presumably it's not too late to start using it on whatever is left of the brassicas?
Cheers
John
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I have read the other posts and generally go along with all that has been said, particularly the Jeyes fluid issue!
Although I am not quite sure about the debris netting? as I think along with not allowing the penetration of insect life, it must also reduce light levels which to my mind is not a good thing!
I have found that ¾" bird netting is enough ( I have more problems with birds rather than cabbage whites)
As you will see below, I use armillatox which has the same properties & smell of jeyes fluid, in fact I have often think that they are both the same!
The benefits I find are many! e.g.
When it first came out it was said it would deter club root, but I have also found that it deter cabbage root fly as well.
Add to this I think the smell deters cabbage whites also.
I have noticed there seems to be a lot of Cabbage whites around this year and I have noticed they swoop into my brassicas but don't seem to settle, meaning they don't lay their eggs meaning no caterpillars.
Now I am no expert in " Chemical Warfare" ( in gardening terms) but I think this product although a bit pricy is well worth the money because ( touch wood / fingers crossed) I never have trouble with the pests & diseases I have mentioned!
This is how I plant my brassicas;
http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Data/Brassica%20planting/brassica%20planting.html (http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Data/Brassica%20planting/brassica%20planting.html)
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I have used this debris netting , having received a roll as a "gift" and can assure that the light loss is not a factor to me. I have found that the various calabrese, cauliflowers and cabbages have evenly and vigourously grown, better than I have managed before. I think this is due to the "microclimate" within the "tent" constructed, no wind rock and no bird damage. I have found several butterflies under the canopy and believe they penetrate through the lace holes.There is no escape for them then! I am considering use of more over the raised bed salad area that I am building and would be pleased for any reports of for salad crops under this material. At about £32 per 100 sq metres, with a predicted life of ,? ,4 years ,thats 8p per square metre per year. About 4 radishes!
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I have found debris netting is also good for carrots. Last year I tried it for the first time and had the biggest carrots and biggest crop I have ever had. It also keeps the carrot fly off and the rain gets through. The only drawback I found was that the weeds grew better too!!
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With regard to the lace holes, I know it sounds a f*g, but I run the whole roll through my sewing machine pulling the holes together using a zig zag stich and black cotton. Works for us but you do have to have someone with a machine willing to get embroiled in yards of debris netting.
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Suspect I'm now in danger of being drummed out of the forum but, after all the above excellent advice, does anyone use non-organic methods for protecting their brassicas? Yes, I'm talking about commercial insecticides. There - I said it! If so, which ones do you use?
I'm obviously trying to be organic as possible but, in the absence of home produce, I buy veg from supermarkets which has certainly been chemically treated during its life cycle. So am I being precious by trying to beat nature without resorting to chemical warfare? Just trying to think outside of the box :drunken_smilie:
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Suspect I'm now in danger of being drummed out of the forum but, after all the above excellent advice, does anyone use non-organic methods for protecting their brassicas? Yes, I'm talking about commercial insecticides. There - I said it! If so, which ones do you use?
I'm obviously trying to be organic as possible but, in the absence of home produce, I buy veg from supermarkets which has certainly been chemically treated during its life cycle. So am I being precious by trying to beat nature without resorting to chemical warfare? Just trying to think outside of the box :drunken_smilie:
No you will not get drummed out! I do not use pesticides-( except on my alpines and cacti). I cannot help you as I haven't used them on food crops for years but I can understand what you are saying.
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Suspect I'm now in danger of being drummed out of the forum but, after all the above excellent advice, does anyone use non-organic methods for protecting their brassicas? Yes, I'm talking about commercial insecticides. There - I said it! If so, which ones do you use?
I'm obviously trying to be organic as possible but, in the absence of home produce, I buy veg from supermarkets which has certainly been chemically treated during its life cycle. So am I being precious by trying to beat nature without resorting to chemical warfare? Just trying to think outside of the box :drunken_smilie:
Personnally, I would rather use other means than chemicals to achieve a crop that would not kill a pest, but which does not contain one. Therefore out-witting them(!) is my preference. However, the cost/effort required needs to be proportionate to the advantage.This year for example,I grew a selection of brassicas, and planted out sufficient for my needs.(under my debris netting(see above). The excess plants were offered to those I know and this left just a few surplus. I am fortunate in having a spare area of ground which is not fenced against the cursed(but nutricious) rabbit. I decided that the surplus could be put in "beyond the pale"THe second night a rabbit attack was received, and duly suppressed. No more were lost. Now these unprotected plants are suffering caterpillar attack. So far only about 10 % have caterpillars. My first retalliation was by squashing all I could see. Probably got 50%. . This weekend, aim to spray using soda bic & salt as above. Expected cost of materials, less than 50p. , 48 plants. If repeated Weds and Sat say £1 more.
RTU insecticide 500ml £4.99 BUG GUN True cost on vegs unknown.
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(http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx161/amazingrotavator/photo0104_001.jpg) (http://s752.photobucket.com/user/amazingrotavator/media/photo0104_001.jpg.html)(http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx161/amazingrotavator/photo0082.jpg) (http://s752.photobucket.com/user/amazingrotavator/media/photo0082.jpg.html)
Try something like this. Note props in the large one to stop the snow collapsing it.
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You need to be generous with the area (and height) that you net, as the plants always grow bigger than you expect and if the leaves touch the net, the butterflies lay their eggs through it on to the leaves inside. But even then it's usually manageable for me to clean up the few that start eating the plants.
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Once again, many thanks for the excellent replies, most of which I am considering for next year's 'strategy'. :happy7:
Unfortunately, while I am impressed by AmazingRotavator's large tunnel, my plot is on agricultural land (not designated as an allotment) and such a structure would not be permitted without planning permission. For eg, I had to remove a greenhouse and shed a few years ago.
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Update on Soda Bic/salt treatment.
Delayed in application to 07.30 today due to persistant light showers . General spraying with trigger spray to all visible caterpillars and underleaf surfaces. Noted that treated caterpillars became motionless in a minute or so. Returned this afternoon to find almost no active caterpillars, some "dead" and witnessed several being dismembered into manageable sections and whisked away by wasps. Bet they wouldnt have wanted them if Bug-gunned!
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I found much the same, ancellsfarmer. Those caterpillars really don't like it one bit. :happy7:
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And I finally tried the soda/detergent/salt mix last night and was amazed at the reaction of the caterpillars. Only wish I had used it before the little blighters had eaten half the leaves! Many thanks to Ed for the recipe :toothy10:
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I will add myself to the herds of people suggesting the builder's debris netting on some kind of hoop support.
This year I did it for the first time and not only have the pigeons and cabbage whites kept right away from the plants - I concur that the shelter from the wind really gets brassicas growing quickly and well. I've had the biggest and most succulent pest-free calabrese and kohl rabi this year ... the brussels sprouts, purple sprouting and kale are looking so healthy - only cabbages were a bit of a failure - and that was due to slug damage.
Rigging up a support from some water pipe with bamboo to stick it in the ground at each end of the hoops is really easy and not too expensive given how it improves the crop. I weighed my netting down with bricks and bits of wood.
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We use a lot of scaffolders netting on our site as we have terrible problems with wood pigeons. It keeps them off and is supposed to keep butterflies from getting in to lay eggs but I am not completely convinced! My Kale plants have recently been chomped by caterpillars even though they are under it.
What it does do is bring on brassicas a treat! I thinks it creates a microclimate with slightly higher humidity and temperature that brings them on faster.
Of course you shouldn't use it for plants that may need pollination by insects! eg fruit, legumes, curcubits etc
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What it does do is bring on brassicas a treat! I thinks it creates a microclimate with slightly higher humidity and temperature that brings them on faster.
Yes, and you should see the size of my weeds.
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Update on Soda Bic/salt treatment.
Delayed in application to 07.30 today due to persistant light showers . General spraying with trigger spray to all visible caterpillars and underleaf surfaces. Noted that treated caterpillars became motionless in a minute or so. Returned this afternoon to find almost no active caterpillars, some "dead" and witnessed several being dismembered into manageable sections and whisked away by wasps. Bet they wouldnt have wanted them if Bug-gunned!
Update 7 days after treatment:
Revisited plot for the first time today since Monday. I still have a few large caterpillars, some medium caterpillars and several "coach-park "arrays of little tiny hatchlings.
The large I suspect , were hiding last week and survived. The medium (of which there are several) could have migrated from the swedes which are now bare ribbed, and the tiny, just hatched. All (?) resprayed with same miture at 09.00 Reinspected at 1pm with hardly any showing signs of movement. Wasps very active on foraging caterpillar corpes..Aim to revisit on Tuesday and hope for a clear crop. Many thanks to Ed for recipe.
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good mesh does the trick but the plants need to be protected from seed sowing time, no pesticides needed and plants need to be away from the sides of the butterfly mesh but ok touching with enviromesh
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Update on Soda Bic/salt treatment.
Delayed in application to 07.30 today due to persistant light showers . General spraying with trigger spray to all visible caterpillars and underleaf surfaces. Noted that treated caterpillars became motionless in a minute or so. Returned this afternoon to find almost no active caterpillars, some "dead" and witnessed several being dismembered into manageable sections and whisked away by wasps. Bet they wouldnt have wanted them if Bug-gunned!
Update 7 days after treatment:
Revisited plot for the first time today since Monday. I still have a few large caterpillars, some medium caterpillars and several "coach-park "arrays of little tiny hatchlings.
The large I suspect , were hiding last week and survived. The medium (of which there are several) could have migrated from the swedes which are now bare ribbed, and the tiny, just hatched. All (?) resprayed with same miture at 09.00 Reinspected at 1pm with hardly any showing signs of movement. Wasps very active on foraging caterpillar corpes..Aim to revisit on Tuesday and hope for a clear crop. Many thanks to Ed for recipe.
Tuesday bulletin.
Very many less caterpillars but did find one lowdown leaf with no less than 31 critters! so this spoilt the triumphalism. Seems to be single odd large survivors(possibly those quick enough to drop at the first contact) and newly hatched batches. How long is their incubation period. Still loads of butterflies at the moment so the caterpillar wars will continue. Maybe we need another ingredient... suggestions with test results please
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No sign of "coach parks" since starting the spraying, but am still finding a few large caterpillars such as this one today:
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3710/9670407173_edf2b21985_b.jpg)
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(http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx161/amazingrotavator/photo0104_001.jpg) (http://s752.photobucket.com/user/amazingrotavator/media/photo0104_001.jpg.html)(http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx161/amazingrotavator/photo0082.jpg) (http://s752.photobucket.com/user/amazingrotavator/media/photo0082.jpg.html)
Try something like this. Note props in the large one to stop the snow collapsing it.
What sort of height are these - they look great. What height would you go for Brussels sprouts for example. What length of polypipe are you using and how do you attach the polypipe to the wooden frame and the netting to the whole structure. Desperate to copy your design if that's okay ready for next year. Many thanks Al
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Now reached that time of year when I watch my brassica crop (savoy cabbage, calabrese, colly and spouts) being chomped by caterpillars etc. Had some cheap Wilko netting over them which stopped the pigeons getting at them but not the butterflies - and then the sprouts outgrew the netting so I removed it and replaced it with 'dangling CDs'.
The colly and calabrese have already produced a good crop but I obviously need to do a re-think for next year to protect the cabbage & sprouts. Greatly appreciate any advice on netting or any other techniques for protecting brassicas.
Many thanks
John
The only truly effective way to prevent cabbage root fly, white butterflies (or carrot root fly for that matter) in my experience is to use a barrier John.
By far the cheapest (often freebies) is to get your hands on som scaffolding debris net. Scaffolders are supposed to renew it after every job. The other alternative is Veggiemesh (cheaper than Enviromesh). All of these work exceptinally well - a pity they don't deter slugs so well - but they do help with them as well!
Debris net is a brilliant find - it's the perfect width and is very easy to use (unike netting, which often does my head in!) The other component is some alkathene piping a few canes for a ridge and some clips and tent pegs from your local £ shop to keep the edge of the netting down!
Here's an example on my plot:
(http://aeronvale-allotments.org.uk/pics/debris_net_brassica_tunnel.jpg)
I hope that helps in some small way!
G.
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(http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx161/amazingrotavator/photo0104_001.jpg) (http://s752.photobucket.com/user/amazingrotavator/media/photo0104_001.jpg.html)(http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx161/amazingrotavator/photo0082.jpg) (http://s752.photobucket.com/user/amazingrotavator/media/photo0082.jpg.html)
Try something like this. Note props in the large one to stop the snow collapsing it.
What sort of height are these - they look great. What height would you go for Brussels sprouts for example. What length of polypipe are you using and how do you attach the polypipe to the wooden frame and the netting to the whole structure. Desperate to copy your design if that's okay ready for next year. Many thanks Al
The timber is 2"x 1" (Tilers lathes), The pipe is 25mm. The structure is 8' long x 3' wide and 2' high. The pipe is approx. 70" long. I estimated the length of pipe just for cabbages. I built the bigger one for Brussels. I screwed through the pipe into the frame and stapled the net to the frame. Mine are as good as the day I built them (3 years) even though our cats climb on them. Good luck Al.
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Are the holes in the scaffolding netting small enough to stop the carrot root fly getting in? They usually recommend fleece which has much finer holes.
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Are the holes in the scaffolding netting small enough to stop the carrot root fly getting in? They usually recommend fleece which has much finer holes.
I believe so. It is quite fine, although fleece is much finer of course.
I haven't had any carrot fly attacks through debis net, but if anyone has I would be interested to hear about it.
G.
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Many thanks to Big Gee et al for the excellent advice. As mentioned earlier, I'm fighting shy of building any 'permanent' structures as my plot is on agricultural land and I've had a run-in with the local planning enforcement chap before. However, Ed's spray is doing a grand job in significantly reducing the chomping of my brussel sprouts :blob7:
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Many thanks to Big Gee et al for the excellent advice. As mentioned earlier, I'm fighting shy of building any 'permanent' structures as my plot is on agricultural land and I've had a run-in with the local planning enforcement chap before. However, Ed's spray is doing a grand job in significantly reducing the chomping of my brussel sprouts :blob7:
You're welcome Number Six. One suggestion for you is to use net 'tunnels' but of the temporary type - without building any permanent structures around raised beds.
The structures I use can be erected in 20 minutes and taken down again & stored in about 10 minutes.