Allotments 4 All
General => The Shed => Topic started by: Tee Gee on June 27, 2016, 15:50:22
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Rule Britannia
The good ship HMS Great Britain has finished cruising around Europe and as from 23rd June 2016 is now berthed back in the UK.
Sadly Captain Cameron is leaving the helm and his bursar George Osborne has been conspicuous by his absence since berthing.
Is this a case of the rats leaving a sinking ship? I hope not!
The two stokers Johnson & Gove are now considering taking over the Captaincy of the ship but I would guess there will be some opposition to this.
Meanwhile the remainder of the British fleet seem to be in some trouble as well, for example:
HMS Labour has a mutiny on board and Captain Corbyn is having trouble with senior members of his crew.
HMS Liberal is conspicuous by its absence, has Captain Clegg lost his way again and is sitting off shore to see who is going to take over the captaincy of HMS Great Britain prior to showing his colours?
HMS Wales seems to be unaware that the country has left the European Union is this because they see that they are still in ‘The Euros’ now that they have reached the quarter finals.
HMS Ireland do not have this problem as they know they have been knocked out of the Euros but the find that that they might find that they have 'Border' line issues meaning it could be more difficult to transport the Pochin over the border.
HMS Scotland it would seem want to takeover the cruising rights around Europe now that HMS Great Britain has vacated its position but I am not sure if the crew are in full agreement with Captain Sturgeon and first mate Alec Salmond.
The strange thing is? Why are is set on closing their naval base at Farslane.
I think now is the time to give British politics an overhaul and push to make Britain ‘Great’ again.
We have had over 400 years of this type of Government since the forming of the Union in 1707 and the English go back even further than that i.e. to the time of signing the Magna Carta in 1215.
Many of the Democratic countries of the world have copied our form of ‘Governance’ but at least many of them had the sense to discard some of pomp and tradition we have, resulting in what seems to be a more cohesive system.
Lets get into the 21st Century and form a more united form of Government with more regionalisation.
Lets give local councils more say by making the MP’s part of the council where they can work with the councils rather than as another tier of Government like they are now.
Then when the cabinet raise a ‘voting issue’ the whole council will decide, rather than as now, where they MP has to follow the dictate of the ‘Whip’
I could go on but I think I have said enough for now!
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looks brexit rubbed off on the england football team :BangHead:
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Personally I think it's best to stick to gardening on here - it doesn't follow that we all think the same, certainly not about the EU referendum which had a vile campaign on both sides. I don't think this is the right place for politics.
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Here, here, Sparrow, well said. I have been relieved, (also appreciative of the moderators if they have been watchful) that there has been no mention of such an extremely important issue on this forum!
And to move the subject on to the mundane, here we have had friends camping in the garden who voted not as we did, so you can imagine the difficulty over the last few days as the subject simply hasn't been mentioned - and we have found mutual appreciation in painstakingly digging over our extensive matured manure heap, finding and squashing (crunch!) over 30 adult mole crickets, and finding (horror of horrors) at least thirty nests! Many buckets in use and pans of boiling water!!
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We haven't had to anything as mods as far as I am aware. People are free to chat about what they want as long as it is done with respect and preferably humour.
Personally I get enough of politics from other sources and regard A4A as a place where I can peacefully talk about gardening and veg without having to cut through piles of other stuff. I do not see it as a place to voice to my political\economic\religious viewpoint - BUT this is my personal view and I don't speak for the other mods or for Dan.
Other than that I'd just like to say that Captain Clegg has not been at the helm for almost a year. Tim Farron took over almost a year ago.
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The referendum has brought about a break up of families as in many cases the offspring have voted differently to their parents. I am lucky that my immediate family had the same views as myself, however, one of my closest friends didn't and it has put a strain on our friendship. Let us not divide A4A in the same way. People have strong views and I agree with Nick, it definitely is not a subject to have on this forum.
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I am surprised I did not look upon what I have written as being controversial, as as saw it it was a topical subject and was intensionally kept humerous and placed in "The Shed" where I thought most anything can be written.
I know in our communal shed on our allotments we are all constantly " putting the world to right" in fact just this morning the issue was that Mr Cameron set up the referendum then because it did not go his way he resigns! I know on our plots more people are more upset with this issue rather than if we stayed in our out!
Then when you get the Corbyn issue is it any wonder that the British people are confused and upset?
Other than that I'd just like to say that Captain Clegg has not been at the helm for almost a year. Tim Farron took over almost a year ago.
I didn't know that.................could Cameron be emmulating him and getting out because he too did not get his own way either?
This is why I say we should start again, but let us get it right this time....British politics wants a complete overhaul so that future generations ( who it will affect most) can play a part in its formation.
So I will not apologise for what I have written as I have only given my opinion like I always do on this forum, be it gardening or otherwise!
Finally if the moderators want to remove this thread then feel free to do so the last thing I want to do is upset people....Tg
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It's a difficult one. Personally I'm devastated about the decision and appalled by the expressions of xenophobia that have resulted from it. I have immigrant friends who feel unwelcome and unsafe in the country that is now their home, when they are contributing far more to the economy and to the community than I am (and my ancestors are English as far back as I can trace).
And I have realised than my country is not the place I thought it was. I don't feel all that welcome here myself now.
I'm not convinced I'll ever be able to appreciate jokes about it.
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I rarely comment on anything not gardening related, but I read the post out of interest and thought it a light hearted appraisal of the current political turmoil, that's all. I also thought we were free to discuss any subject on here as long as it is not offensive/ inflammatory etc? Politics, and the EU does affect gardening ( look at the situation will seed registration and heritage varieties for example) whether we like it or not, down our plots before the referendum I was surprised to see several newspaper 'rallying cry' posters had been tacked up.....it shows how strongly some felt about the whole situation.
I am more surprised there hasn't been more debate on here about it! I don't see Brexit as a sensitive taboo subject just because people may have opposed strongly held views, I think the way those views are expressed and hopefully respected on this forum is what is more important. If you do not wish to debate simply do not engage or read the post any further as you would any other post you had no desire to read. Perhaps the post title could be amended to reflect the subject matter a little more clearly so that those who wished to could choose not to read it?
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My sentiments entirely. I think the importance of the decision the country actually voted on pales in to insignificance when you look at how our home-grown politicians behaved during the campaigning ... and now our country is in turmoil not because of the decision that was decided at the referendum, but the fact that the politicians see it as a way to further their own careers at the expense of doing what they are elected and paid to do.
European politicians, or British politicians ... they all make me sick!
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Isn't this controversy the result of successive governments each brushing aside the real issues that arise rather than being bold in involving their electorate in resolving them. They think they GOVERN us, but their remit is to represent. Unless they ask for and receive steering instruction, they can only proceed with their own agendas. It is our responsibility to vote. Everybody, every time.
For too long, the status quo has dominated, political correctness has prevailed and the electorate neither listened to,nor been questioned. It cannot surely cause surprise if the silent majority answer honestly a simple question, at the first opportunity.
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I don't think it's easy to answer a question honestly when you've been fed such a constant diet of lies. Look how many Leave voters are now regretting their decision as it's become clear that the campaign was based on promises that were never going to be kept, and that there's no plan whatsoever about how to proceed.
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I have no regrets I rarely believe politicians ( nothing new there then) I am British and I sometimes watch Euronews and Scotland news rather than just BBC England and there is a lot I do not like to hear/see hence my opinion.
I want to get back to being British again and in my opinion we have to have our own autonomy!
The only people I see that are complaining are those that have lots of money to potentially lose.
Last week my shares had dropped as would there's but now my shares are back to where they were pre the vote as will there's, so my guess is when the financiers backs were to the wall they got the finger out and did something about it and that is what we Brits are about.
Let's get rid of our current form of government we have 650 MP's but are ruled by the front benchers and the whip so that to my mind means there is a surplus of around 600 MP's by my calculations.
Added to that we have been led by numerous Euro MP's who we did not elect now we have got rid of them lets get our own house in order again rather than the undemocratic protest in London yesterday.
They do not know what austerity is that is because our generation ( the over 65'S) were to blame for breeding the wimps that supposedly rule us today.
A casing point that keeps coming into my mind as I write this are those who gave their lives in the two world wars eg the Pals of the Somme so that we can be the Nation we once were rather than being ruled by Europe.
OK we have got rid of Europe again now let's back to returning our country to its greatness by getting our political system in order, after al it is these people that take us in to these wars.
I am led to believe the results of the Chillcot Enquiry comes out soon. This Enquiry has cost the people of the U.K a fortune in legal fees so I hope the truth comes out but as with the lies we have had with the referendum I have feeling we will get more lies.
This is one time I hope I am wrong and for one I hope we get the truth (but I won't hold my breath) so now I'm off to do a bit of gardening so that I can lie to myself (see I am brainwashed) and say these are the best plants in the UK.
Sadly this year I can't say that because I know they are not! Simply because I think this has been one of the most trying years in all my years of gardening.
I'll get off my soapbox now! Tg
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I want to get back to being British again and in my opinion we have to have our own autonomy! .............
The only people I see that are complaining are those that have lots of money to potentially lose. ...........
Added to that we have been led by numerous Euro MP's who we did not elect now we have got rid of them lets get our own house in order again rather than the undemocratic protest in London yesterday. ..............
A casing point that keeps coming into my mind as I write this are those who gave their lives in the two world wars eg the Pals of the Somme so that we can be the Nation we once were rather than being ruled by Europe. ............
"I want to get back to being British again and in my opinion we have to have our own autonomy!" I have never lost my British identity through being a member of the EU, TeeGee! I also trust the EU more than our own Government. The Social Chapter, for example, has given us much better working conditions and benefits. It's the British Government that has taken
away many of our rights or reduced benefits for the needy. The bedroom tax is a good example. My nephew is terminally ill yet loses benefit because he has a two bedroomed flat. :sad10: After chemotherapy sessions, he has friends or relatives who sleep there to look after him should he need help in the night, so he needs that extra room.
The EU laws regarding the environment have also made Britain a better place to live. Eight years ago I took a degree course which involved looking at EU laws on the environment in great detail. They have done so much for us. The Directive lists some 750 plus chemicals capable of inducing cancer. As a gardener, we may moan about not being able to buy certain chemicals, but I for one would not like to use anything that is carcinogenic.
The EU has also been responsible for protection of our countryside. See: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-brexit-poses-huge-risk-to-britains-countryside-experts-warn-a6835426.html
"The only people I see that are complaining are those that have lots of money to potentially lose."
I don't agree. There are millionaires on both sides.
"Added to that we have been led by numerous Euro MP's who we did not elect now we have got rid of them lets get our own house in order again rather than the undemocratic protest in London yesterday."
We get the opportunity to vote for MEP's but many people do not take advantage of it. You obviously didn't. :sad5:
I wouldn't have called it an undemocratic protest. Democracy is all about being able to air ones views. People protested because of the lies that Johnson, Gove and Farage said in order to sway voters. Brexit leaders also stirred up racism by bringing immigration into their campaign.
"A casing point that keeps coming into my mind as I write this are those who gave their lives in the two world wars eg the Pals of the Somme so that we can be the Nation we once were rather than being ruled by Europe."
We are not being ruled by Europe but are part of a group who can stick together and have more influence in the World. The EU has brought peace to Europe and my father, who served in the second world war, was very much in favour of being in this Union. I can't agree that we were a better nation without the EU. We were spraying chemicals which were harming bird, animal and plant life and contaminating oceans, seas and rivers.
Whether or not the referendum result will be implemented remains to be seen as it has to be voted in by Parliament and The Lords. It will take a long time for us to recover after everything that has happened since the referendum and many people have been hurt by it. We have had the peace in Europe but are we now to have civil unrest in the UK? :dontknow:
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Some very good points there Pauline but I still can not be swayed to thinking we would have been better staying in!
BTW I did vote for my Euro MP as my philosophy is if you don't vote you have no right to complain.
I also vote in the local elections which for the record I see as more important than National and Euro elections as the outcome is often more likely affect me personally (as oposed to the general British Public)
This is one of the reasons that I would like our MP's to get involved in local politics, after all they are supposed to be looking after the interests of their constituents.
Let me create a scenario: I live with the boundaries of a Metropolitan Council which contains at least three parliamentary constituencies that I know of, there may be more, but my point is: on a number of occasions these three seats have been held on a number of occasions by the three main parties (Con,Lab,Lib) in the same parliament, and our local council is generally alway 'hung' meaning that choose what my political allegiance is I am unlikely to get the representation that other member of the UK might get.
What I meant by the non elected MP's was the MP's of the other countries who can, and do, influence the final outcome of the decisions made.
OK that is European Democracy but it is not British Democracy and sadly OUR MP's are using some of the good that comes out of the EU to cover their failings and it is this I want addressed and this is why I wanted to vote OUT.
I want the British people to wash their OWN dirty linen and we won't while we have a political system like we have.
At least I think we both agree that the main problem is with our own Government....Tg
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As far as I can see, leaving the EU gives our politicians more power to ruin our lives, not less. At least the EU curbs the worst of their excesses with things like the Human Rights Act, maternity/paternity leave, workers' rights, etc. What's the alternative being offered by the government? Who knows? I don't think even they know. There's nothing to stop them from replacing the EU laws that protect us with whatever they want and no one will be able to do a thing about it.
Leave isn't going to give us a better government. It's falling apart. Leave doesn't give any more power to us, the electorate. We aren't "taking our country back", we're giving even more free reign to our corrupt lying uncaring politicians.
I'm totally complaining and I am poor. I don't lack for necessities because of the generosity of my family and my partner but I have no money and no income of my own, being disabled and unable to work.
If we leave, Scotland and Northern Ireland will end up abandoning us and the UK will be no more. I can't say I blame them in the slightest. If I wasn't tied here by my partner's job, my garden and my friends and family here I'd leave Britain too. I'm ashamed of it.
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It's far too late to have these arguments now :BangHead:
The leavers either want to have their way at any cost to future generations for a modicum of nostalgia ... or they are people who have been lied to about the consequences and were too blind to see it (probably too proud to admit it afterwards too). If we truly believe in democracy we cannot get het up about the result ... it is what it is. Recriminations will not ever undo the destabilisation that the population has voted for. Only make it worse.
There were an awful lot of bad things about the EU as well as the good it did ... we might as well turn our attention towards lobbying for as fair as possible a society we can get outside the EU now. It's a good time to oppose big businesses power, Rupert Murdoch's hold over our media and modern bogus capitalism - better than we've ever had before ... coz it ain't working!
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the uk is fighting in a civil for most part civil war. words instead of usual bullets. Which is a good thing.
the UK is having , what can be described as 100 year political realignment these things have to happen ever so often.
If they don't violence will follow,strikes or societal break down. the winter of discontent and Venezuela are what happens when these type realignments go bad.
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"Last week my shares had dropped as would there's but now my shares are back to where they were pre the vote as will there's, so my guess is when the financiers backs were to the wall they got the finger out and did something about it and that is what we Brits are about."
The stick market doesn't work like that. It doesn't matter how hard financiers work, all the FTSE is a reflection of the value the companies that comprise it. No one has "done something about it", no one has "got their finger out" - all traders do is buy and sell shares at whatever price they can depending on buyers and sellers valuations of the future earnings of particular companies.
The reason that the FTSE100 has gained ground is that 2/3rds of the income is generated overseas. The decline in the pound means that these earnings which are paid in foreign currency are now worth a lot more. The FTSE is a terrible indicator of how a particular economy is doing or even going to do. The FTSE could rise to record levels but if the majority of that growth comes from those companies growing overseas, employing overseas workers and paying taxes abroad then it doesn't help the UK economy.
Personally I don't think that a lot of people understand how the modern world works - how connected we all are now. I was talking to a guy online who has a business partner in Holland and they are starting a UK based business to sell products into Germany and the eastern bloc - he basically is just going to move it all abroad or give it up as he cannot do what he does without the single market. All his tech is in the cloud so he can operate from anywhere. So off he goes to pay tax elsewhere and hope he can get residency in Germany.
I don't feel British anymore - I am from London and then I am European, so for me that will probably mean I am off in the next year or so and see if my IT skills will be of use in Poland or elsewhere. Either that and sell up and buy somewhere in Spain and hope they don't kick me out when Mrs May tries to kick all the EU nationals out of the UK.
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Given that the Governments declared intention is to reduce nett migration, could it be that the intention IS to increase outward migration, possibly by simply p***ing off enough of our current residents, to cause them to go elsewhere (where the weathers warmer, taxes less etc) and therby reducing the Nett figure. Job done!
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I firmly believe that immigration is a good thing which has a net benefit for the country (they certainly put in more than they get back). Unfortunately many people get caught up in "there's too many foreigners" rhetoric.
Unless your family has lived in East Africa forever, you're a descendant of immigrants. Without immigration, these islands would never have been populated in the first place.
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There is a very clear differentiation that people make when talking about the bl..dy immigrants - the second I point out that I am one of them, they say, but we don't mean YOU! Well who do they mean? Where is the collective hatred coming from and why?
This country where I spent all my adult life, work, marriage, children and so on does not feel comfortable, fair or welcoming any more. There is no assurance to be had regarding my (and so many other's) status, future pension, continued NHS access and many more. Guess ex-pats must feel the same. I actually cried when the Scottish First Minister welcomed immigrants to Scotland!
Who has shifted the blame and hatred, that should go towards the government, towards immigrants? We all suffer from insufficient housing, not enough school places, potholes, shortages, public service cuts and so on, but it is the fault of the government not to make adequate provision. Were it not for the tax taken from immigrants, there would be even less money for public needs. Just think about the big birthrate bubble, the 'baby boomers' who are now at pension age. There is a necessity for a corresponding increase in tax taken from those working now. Either there are more working people (immigrants help a lot here) or the tax taken from British workers would need to increase quite a bit.
There is always enough money for wars, vanity projects, large industry tax cuts etc but not for ordinary people and their boring, ordinary needs. We could insist on fairer shares of the nation's wealth - what we have are some earning daily fortunes and others left behind in poverty and squalor. Other comparable countries do have far less differential in earnings between the lowest and highest earners and more social cohesion.
But that just doesn't seem to matter in Britain, because there is a scapegoat - immigrants. The government is off the hook!
Rule Britannia - good luck! :BangHead:
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Galina, I am pleased you mentioned the "baby boomers" in your post. I can remember the Government, about 20 years ago, saying that when the "baby boomers" retired, there would be one worker supporting three pensioners. Not a situation that I looked forward to as it would have meant a severe reduction in pension when I retired.
Fortunately, since then, the population has risen as immigrants have come into our country to do jobs that couldn't be filled by those already here, especially too as the "baby boomers" were retiring from work. I cannot understand why so many people, especially the older population, are against immigration. They are the ones who would have had the most to lose had we not taken in people from Europe and the rest of the world.
Take comfort that only just over a third of the population voted to leave the EU with the majority voting to remain or not to vote. Those who voted Brexit were not all racists, many being taken in by the proposal of putting the money that was being paid to the EU, into the NHS.
A lot of people were turned against the EU by the way the press reported everything. People read these newspapers and take in information as if it was the gospel. In fact many thought working conditions would improve if we left the EU and they had no idea about the part the "Social Chapter" plays in the workforce. Hatred of immigrants as well as those people on benefits has also been fuelled by the press. The government has a lot to answer too in the way they have picked on certain members of our society.
Please be consoled, Galina, that although the figures look bad on the surface, there are not that many people that are racist and those that are are normally ignorant and uneducated. I hope you will stay in our country as it is a better place for your being here. xx.
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Thank you Pauline, very kind words from you. Guess we are all in the same boat and nobody quite knows what is going to happen in the near and slightly more distant future. Bless you :angel11: x
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Galina, Our daughter-in-law, like you, has adopted the UK as her home and, like you, no longer feels welcome. They happened to be in Berlin when the result was announced and they simply didn't want to go back home. Now with us for a holiday, they couldn't wait to come away again. It is almost impossible, I think, for the average UK citizen to stand in the shoes of an "immigrant" and imagine how they might feel.
Three years ago, we set in train our application for French nationality, just in case, but never really imagining that the UK might really leave the EU. We are so very very sad, and ashamed, and so angry for the changed future of the young. Our many French friends keep asking us how the UK could have done this. And they are very afraid for what this might do for the future of the EU
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Thank you Peanuts, yes there are many others in the same boat and similarly expats by extension. I have not heard about any moves being made by any EU countries against expats in the wake of this. My daughter mentioned that her Danish work colleague is applying for proper UK residency. Seems there are things that can be done to achieve something like a 'permanent right to stay' status, but I don't know what the criteria are yet. She is going to send me the urls and I will pm to you for your DIL if this is of interest.
Thank you to everybody for your very kind messages and PMs. :wave:
Galina, Our daughter-in-law, like you, has adopted the UK as her home and, like you, no longer feels welcome. They happened to be in Berlin when the result was announced and they simply didn't want to go back home. Now with us for a holiday, they couldn't wait to come away again. It is almost impossible, I think, for the average UK citizen to stand in the shoes of an "immigrant" and imagine how they might feel.
Three years ago, we set in train our application for French nationality, just in case, but never really imagining that the UK might really leave the EU. We are so very very sad, and ashamed, and so angry for the changed future of the young. Our many French friends keep asking us how the UK could have done this. And they are very afraid for what this might do for the future of the EU
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We all know that the decision to leave the EU was fuelled by the fear of immigrants taking over Great Britain.Like galina my family were immigrants to this country when the British government were asking them to join the UK work force in the fifties. My family never claimed any benefits, my parents worked full time all their lives. They paid for their house. I now work in a hospital for the NHS and its apparent when you look around the hospital that it would collaspe without the many immigrants that work there. All my life I have considered myself British born of Jamaican parents. My parents considered themselves British when they lived in Jamaica and came to work in the UK. MY parents faced the same disgusting predjudice that many Polish etc immigrants are facing again today. it breaks my heart! I work along side many people who make political statements in *jest* thinking that it shouldnt affect me. It's true that THE SHED is the place for off topics and as Tee Gee has every right to use this as his soap box I have been as a result of his post done the same.