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General => The Shed => Topic started by: ACE on December 03, 2018, 13:36:58
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Ethical vegetables, are they still ethical if they are grown in dung. Dung from farmed animals that are going on our tables. I don't mind people being vegans, but I do not like being lectured on what I should eat from some of the militant vegans.
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i look at it the manure is there is the gas different if we use it to grow stuff no in fact we are off setting the co2 by the crops we are growing which would not grow aswell if we didnt recycle the manure by putting it on our plots in the first place so the vegan brigade should be thanking as for the work we do in putting to gooduse what would otherwise be left to steam
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And are Vegans responsible for the increase in the use of plastics? Since they will not wear clothes made from wool or leather or any other animal based material they must therefore wear stuff made from plastic Try buying linen or cotton shoes!
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The thing that puzzles me is in the past it was often difficult to get young kids to eat their vegetables yet when they got to University/Collage they become 'vegans' . :drunken_smilie:
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If you are after an answer then I think most vegans would appreciate that it is almost impossible to distinguish what veg are grown using what manures. There is no system by which fruit and veg are grown which tells us what all the inputs are. So the question of is it ethical is moot as it is practically unknowable in the real world.
However of course what vegans are working towards is “In an ideal world, we would like to see our crops grown with no animal inputs.” In that world as the world stops eating meat based protein then the production of manure would cease or slow down to negligible amounts. There would still be some and human manure has been used historically!
I am not quite sure what johhnyco15 is saying but if there are no food animals then there is no manure and livestock produces huge amounts of greenhouse gases
"The 400-page report by the Food and Agricultural Organisation, entitled Livestock's Long Shadow, also surveys the damage done by sheep, chickens, pigs and goats. But in almost every case, the world's 1.5 billion cattle are most to blame. Livestock are responsible for 18 per cent of the greenhouse gases that cause global warming, more than cars, planes and all other forms of transport put together."
As for the plastic consumption by vegans - I don't really think that the world is drowning in plastic because of vegans. Most vegans I know are normally of an environmentally conscious mind set and they have been buying clothes made from natural materials for decades. Rubber, Cotton, coir and coconut, bamboo, kelp, cork and hemp come to mind but of course like the rest of us they wear stuff made from oil based products.
I say all of this as a committed meat eater..
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I put this thread on as it is Vegan silly season, Rename the village called Wool, barracking meat eaters in a restaurant, moaning about reindeer at a petting farm and now somebody want veganism as a philosophical belief. I don't care how people live, eat, worship etc but don't want to change especially under pressure. We shall discuss this tonight down the Shoulder of Mutton, if they hav'nt closed it as well.
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Rename the village called Wool was PETA which are not a strictly vegan organisation. I disagree with a lot of what they do but they are really good at getting attention, press and people talking about issues - even if it manages to annoy half of the population. They weren't really serious about changing the village name just about getting press coverage - the Director said "This is just a fun way to share the facts with people." I think most people just saw the headline and were laughing.
I think the ethical vegan guy is kinda interesting but it is only a tribunal.
I admit that I hate evangelical believers in anything. I had to blank a few facebook friends who post nothing but anti meat videos. It does nothing to promote their beliefs - it just tries to shock and vilify carnivores . If they posted more about the benefits of meat free I suspect more people may pay attention.
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Try an experiment.
Work out how large a plot you would need if you were to be entirely self sufficient as an omnivore, then recalculate the area you would need to have if you were entirely self sufficient as a strict vegetarian. Finally, calculate the area you would need to be entirely self sufficient, while being strictly vegan.
The population at large is dependent on inputs from beyond their own plot, therefore they buy rather than produce their dietary requirements. If that was repudiated (or not possible), the majority would STARVE! The success of the modern food supply is the only thing that lets those extremists enjoy the 'right' to be so condescending to the majority of us.
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Reading these comments I can only register surprise.
I am ashamed to say that among my friends I do not have any vegans. So I don't get lectured, and I was unaware that vegetables could even be unethical. Am I reading the wrong newspapers?
I know one or two vegetarians, indeed I sometimes think that I could become vegetarian. At present I still eat meat dairy and eggs but I eat meat less often than I once did, perhaps twice, sometimes three times each week. I eat a lot of vegetables, I like chese and enjoy my diet, so probably not. But I think many of us might be a bit healthier if we ate a little less meat. I doubt that I could ever become fully vegan.
But I didn't realize it was such a contentious issue and that so many people were so upset about it. The controversy seems to have passed me by. I mean if we really want a good argument, I can think of dozens of hot topics that would seem far more urgent than a very very tiny group of well meaning people saying let's not kill animals. I may not agree but I find it hard to get animated about it.
But don't get me started on Trump, brexit, global warming, Putin, the housing shortage, racism, insecticides, excessive use of antibiotics NHS waiting lists,etc,etc. Now mention those and I'd be up for an epic debate.
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Probably a more interesting debate too Beersmith - housing, health etc that is, not Br***t.
We are omnivores tho I don't really like beef. Find it a bit dull after the second mouthful, even well brought up and hung. However, Australian scientists have discovered that just adding a little dried seaweed to cattle feed reduces flatulence and belching by 99% so that is clearly a way forward for the meat industry. Irish farmers are to adopt it - https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/seaweed-shown-to-reduce-99-methane-from-cattle-1.3156975
Love veggies and we're aiming to be self suffciient as far as we can because I don't want unnecessary chemicals and I do want better tasting varieties as well as providing a haven for pollinators and birds and other beneficial wildlife.
I don't mind people passing on information to enlighten me about stuff but I don't want lectures or prohibitions or abuse from people with different views who think they know better. I know what suits me better than anyone thank you.
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But don't get me started on Trump, brexit, global warming, Putin, the housing shortage, racism, insecticides, excessive use of antibiotics NHS waiting lists,etc,etc. Now mention those and I'd be up for an epic debate.
Don't worry we wont.
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but I don't want lectures or prohibitions
Well I fully agree.
My thinking was simply that among all the political groups, business corporations, religions, and pressure groups that exist today vegans are the least likely to have any impact on your life.
Monsanto may lobby to overturn bans on neonicotinoids, religious groups constantly seek to repeal abortion laws, fossil fuel interests constantly lobby the governments to relax regulations that control fracking, the European research group is striving for a hard Brexit (sorry for the mention), the GWPF put out a constant stream of misleading information about climate change, landlords in parliament oppose any regulations to require houses to be fit for habitation.. Many of these groups yield real power and influence and have real impacts.
Trying to keep things in proportion a group that simply tries to persuade us that killing things is not nice is the least of my concerns.
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Trying to keep things in proportion a group that simply tries to persuade us that killing things is not nice is the least of my concerns.
So go and start your own argument then.
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Ace- I have removed a bit from your post.
Best to stick to discussions not arguments anyway. I suggest a cup of chamomile :coffee2: as they arn't good for the blood pressure.
If you need an argument maybe go and get some manure dug in on the plot then you might not have the energy. Unless the militant vegans are on your allotment site in which case you can just waft the manure odour their way.
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So here is a question. Why when vegetarians come to eat here, we have to make them a vegetarian meal, but when we go there they do not make us an omnivorous meal?
As for the ethical vegetable poser, ours definitely are. We do not use animal manures on the garden, not for any 'ethical' problems, but because in the past all the animal stuff has been full of weed seeds and we have enough weeds of our own already without bringing in more.
My Father once said to me many years ago, that the hardest thing to do was to allow someone an opinion which differed from your own.
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Trying to keep things in proportion a group that simply tries to persuade us that killing things is not nice is the least of my concerns.
So go and start your own argument then.
I
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I have started my own argument.
It is about the subject matter. My argument is that it is not worth blowing a gasket and getting totally outraged by a tiny minority group with very little influence and whose message, if somewhat naive and in my view a bit midguided, is essentially harmless.
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This is an easy question to answer Palustris. There is a restaurant in London that prides itself on being fully inclusive where friends of all religions or none can go together and eat the same food.
I guess this is what happens when we voluntarily restrict ourself both by catering for vegetarians and by eating vegetarian food when visiting. We can eat and handle the vegetarian food and they can't or won't handle meat. Friendship (of which eating together is a large part) is surely more important than insisting on a foodstuff that is problematic for others which we can have any other day of the year.
Friends or family do come with all sorts of needs and foibles we need to allow for, like greatgran needs her special chair or help to get up or a nap, kids need an energy sapping run and a play session and their favourite video rather than being couped up all day in one room on a visit and so on. Not all extra needs are food related, but as good hosts we try to accommodate them all to give others a good time and be inclusive. :wave:
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a tiny minority group with very little influence and whose message, if somewhat naive and in my view a bit midguided, is essentially harmless.
These tiny minority groups grow and grow, then they have the influence to change things, quite rightly so in a lot of cases. But it will not be long before a vegan can call me a tw@t for eating meat but if I call them one back it will be a hate crime.
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Can I ask where this is all coming from Ace?
Is the IOW a hot bed of militant veganism or have you been reading the Daily Wail? :glasses9:
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It just seem that every day there is another Vegan outrage, especially down south where there is a larger group of hipsters that go with the current trend, last year it was never watching Game of Thrones, this year it is I'm a vegan. Phrases like 'taking home the bacon' will be changed to 'taking home the beans' “feeding a fed horse” instead of “flogging a dead horse” and “taking the flowers by the thorns” instead of “taking the bull by the horns”. They will be getting the dentists to take out our canine teeth next. Just look at the silliness that came about with the new bank notes. Like I said it is just Vegan silly season and I don't really give a d@mn but as it is mid winter and we are now starting to get a bit of cabin fever, why not have a bit of a squabble, we will all be friends again come the spring.
Think yourself lucky it was not Brexit (spit) that I wanted to debate
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Or the Americanisation of Christmas?
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Having read all of the above who should I award this to?
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See what I mean, even the good old wooden spoon is a salad spoon :toothy10:
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I see that spoon as a good wide one for beating butter and sugar at the start of a cake - altho I haven't done that since I was at school. Love kitchen technology - within reason.
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I see that spoon as a good wide one for beating butter and sugar at the start of a cake - altho I haven't done that since I was at school. Love kitchen technology - within reason.
Sorry, cant like that!
Butter =dairy=cow =calf=vegan gets excited! That must not happen because, in promoting their point of view, some of these 'Extremists' offer physical threats and intimidation to farmers engaged wholly in decent, legal, sustainable, honest ,production to feed the population of the world.
Live but let live.
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Sometimes, only butter will do the job. I just prefer to beat it with electronic assistance these days. I wonder what extreme vegans have to say about technology and power sources. Minefield really.
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Certainly they would be very unhappy with those giant wheels being turned by over-grown hamsters to power up the wind turbine blades so that it looks as if they are actually working.
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Well this is embarrassing.
I have read the last three comments and have to admit, I can not tell which are serious and which are being ironic. I think two are probablyy tongue in cheek, but there is one where I'm not too sure.
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So, next question. Why do vegetarian meals have to be made to look like meat? I mean Veggie burgers that bleed? For heaven's sake!
Today we are having Chestnut Lasagne, no cheese on it as I am lactose intolerant. It does not look anything like lasagne made with mince meat and why should it.
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We like vegetables and pulses and often have vegetarian meals but never pretend sausages/mince/burgers. Don't see the point of quorn or tofu and they're not needed if you know about combining pulses with carbs to get a whole protein and thus a balanced diet.
Flavour for me every time and texture too. I wonder how much energy and water and waste go into producing quorn and tofu.
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veggie chilli today, not vegan because I like soured cream, nachos and cheese layered in it. Some days meat, some day veggie, just because that is what is in the larder. I do like those Linda Mcartney sausages though even if they are pretend, not as a veggie meal because they might be on the same plate as eggs and bacon. The majority of my friends are vegan and vegetarian, but they are not the preaching type. We eat mainly vegetable meals because we have so many of them so we look up veggie recipes on the internet and most of them are tasty enough to eat. If they are too bland then the chorizo comes into play just to boost the flavour.
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I'll stick to what I was taught and that is:
"A Little of what you fancy does you Good"
In fact I am chief cook & bottle washer tonight as the wife is away Xmas shopping with her mates so I am off to have a look and see what I fancy! :walk:
...and it won't be this: :spam1:
:wave: :coffee2:
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So the Monty Python menu would not be popular.
Egg and bacon
Egg and Spam
Egg, bacon and Spam
Egg, bacon, sausage and Spam
Spam, bacon, sausage and Spam
Spam, egg, Spam, Spam, bacon and Spam
Spam, Spam, Spam, egg and Spam
Spam, Sausage, Spam, Spam, Spam, Bacon, Spam, Tomato and Spam
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I forgot the final menu item.
Lobster Thermidor aux crevettes with a Mornay sauce, garnished with truffle pâté, brandy and a fried egg on top, and Spam.
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Many of us seem to share a disapproval of things getting too politically correct. So can you guess the Christmas songs being described here from a rather PC perspective.
Song one: Includes mockery and bullying followed by social exclusion simply because someone looks different.
Song two: A person of power and privilege uses a charitable act as virtue signalling rather than support a decent welfare system.
Song three: A song of rampant gluttony involving large numbers of innocent game birds shocks vegans.
Song four: A blatant misuse of confidential personal data leads to arbitrary rewards and penalties in outrageous breech GDP regulations.
Answers later.
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SPOILER ALERT
My attempt:
One: Rudolph the red nosed reindeer?
Two: Good King Wenceslas?
Three: 12 days of Christmas?
Four: Santa Claus is Coming to Town?
Enjoyed that. Thanks.
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Dr John
I award a prize of praise. Four out of four.
A couple are perhaps a bit obvious, but for the other two here, for other readers, are the key lines.
All of the other reindeer used to laugh and call him names, they never let poor Rudolph join in any reindeer games
He's making a list and checking twice, he's gonna find out who's naughty or nice
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Dr John
I award a prize of praise. Four out of four.
But do you know how to twerk
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You guys might enjoy these twists on classics:
O Holiday Tree
Have Yourself a Merry Little Day of Winter
Frosty the Snowperson
Chestnuts Roasting on a Safely Contained, Continuously Monitored Eco-Friendly, Nontoxic outdoor fire (for which I do have a Permit)
Higher Power Rest ye Merry Gentlemen
Grandma Allegedly Got Run Over by an unidentified non-human perpetrator
Deck the Halls with Boughs of Unidentified foliage (if office policy permits)
Hark! The Herald Mythical Winged Creature Sings
I saw Mommy Greeting Santa Claus with a Purely Platonic Expression of Inoffensive mutual affection
I’ll Be Home for a short period of time in December
I asked the missus about "Twerk"- the response "What's twerk?" she's currently "Googling" "Twerking"
Update- "I'm not twerking anybody- I thought it was like "Tweeking" "They can Pi$$ off"
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Cars with nobody in but the driver - where decent public transport is available. Sitting & fuming in jams of their own making.
I know some will be carrying stuff where it's needed, but I get the impression that most of the time the car is just a powered wheelchair for the able-bodied (who are probably digging their own grave by using those pedals instead of a bike).
I can see why you wouldn't want to waste your own energy when going to do something physically demanding - but don't start me on the "types" who drive to the gym etc... Ten minutes less on foot and ten minutes more on the treadmill - how does that make it worth burning fuel?
:BangHead:
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I can't remember the last time public transport other than trains suited my needs altho I did enjoy using the tram in Bordeaux this summer on a 3 day excursion with my daughter.
Last year, our dance clance on Thursday was moved half an hour forward. You cannot imagine our amazement at seeing our first local bus! It seems there's one passing thru the village at 5:30, 6:30 and 7:30 pm. Presumably something similar in the am. However, the nearest stop is still 5kms away and it doesn't go where I want to be at the hours I usually need to go somewhere.......
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Cars with nobody in but the driver - where decent public transport is available. Sitting & fuming in jams of their own making.
I know some will be carrying stuff where it's needed, but I get the impression that most of the time the car is just a powered wheelchair for the able-bodied (who are probably digging their own grave by using those pedals instead of a bike).
I can see why you wouldn't want to waste your own energy when going to do something physically demanding - but don't start me on the "types" who drive to the gym etc... Ten minutes less on foot and ten minutes more on the treadmill - how does that make it worth burning fuel?
:BangHead:
Long held the view that rather than waste electricity driving a running belt, it would be more sustainable to run a treadmill, just like the hamsters' and generate the stuff. Excellent working demonstration mill in Bodmin Gaol.
Just like to see every sports hall,detention centre and secondary school equipped thus, available for use all day and night, for recreation and punishment.