Allotments 4 All

Allotment Stuff => The Basics => Topic started by: Borderers1951 on May 11, 2019, 11:28:48

Title: Mare's Tail
Post by: Borderers1951 on May 11, 2019, 11:28:48
I recently took on a second plot on the local site.  I was warned it was badly infested by Mare's Tail and have been digging out shoots and roots for some weeks yet still it comes.  I have decided to give it a good dose of a suitable weedkiller - perhaps several doses.  It's no longer a case of should I use it or not, it's the death penalty now.  I have tested a small segment with a strong glyphosate which does work to some degree but is there anything else which is as  effective or possibly more so?
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Plot 18 on May 11, 2019, 12:46:00
Ammonium sulphamate really does kill the stuff, but the EU banned it's use, because it refused to review the data supplied unless it contained details of animal testing on dogs, which the supplier thought would cause unnecessary suffering to animals  :BangHead:
 
You can only buy it to as a compost accelerant now.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_sulfamate and other sites about it and its use.
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Tee Gee on May 11, 2019, 13:14:34
Although it took a couple of years to get rid of it I found that constant hoe hoe hoeing :icon_santa: :icon_santa: was the answer, I never let it grow higher than 50mm(2") before hoeing it down.

I also found that improving the quality of the soil and making it slightly alkaline seemed to help.

I never tried chemical treatment so can't vouch for this method although it is often recommended!

http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Content/M/Mare%27s%20Tail/Mare%27s%20Tail.htm (http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Content/M/Mare%27s%20Tail/Mare%27s%20Tail.htm)
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Beersmith on May 11, 2019, 19:44:23
Ammonium sulphamate really does kill the stuff, but the EU banned it's use, because it refused to review the data supplied unless it contained details of animal testing on dogs, which the supplier thought would cause unnecessary suffering to animals  :BangHead:
 
You can only buy it to as a compost accelerant now.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_sulfamate and other sites about it and its use.

It was reported that the Irish rapporteur behaved in a very perverse way in the handling of this case.  Technically it is not banned. It is simply unlicensed. What pressure or incentives might have caused the rapporteur's behaviour? Who can guess?
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: nodig on May 11, 2019, 20:30:20
I can remember Joe Swift of BBC gardeners world starting his own allotment plot a few years back.  When he found out that his new plot was infested with Mares Tail he enthusiastically asking an old boy for advice.  I had to laugh when the answer he was given was 'give up'.  Funnily enough I think he did after a few more episodes!
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: ACE on May 12, 2019, 08:32:04
I took over a plot on a site once that nobody wanted because of the mares tail. A deep dig over removing all the bits of black root I could find, then as suggested by other posters hoe, hoe, hoe. I grew plenty of stuff on the plot. Can be a nuisance in amongst a row of seedlings but plan your thinning right and you will be ok. I don't think mares tail takes a lot from the soil all it does is look untidy. It would not worry me now, but whatever you do DON'T ROTAVATE.
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: ancellsfarmer on May 12, 2019, 10:54:34
Fortunately never been stressed by the plant, just a matter of luck. Its got its uses,
See:
http://wssa.net/wp-content/themes/WSSA/WorldOfWeeds/horsetail.html
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: nodig on May 12, 2019, 18:29:08
I have to laugh at the comment that just do a deep dig all over the plot and that gets rid of the Mares Tail.  A deep dig over a standard plot would involve going through 150 cubic metres of soil, getting on for 300 tonnes!.  Of course the experienced allotmenteers on this forum would only take a couple of hours to dig 300 tonnes of soil but for newbies it would take perhaps a lifetime or a bit longer.
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Obelixx on May 12, 2019, 19:11:24
You have to treat it like you would if you had an elephant to eat.  One bite at a time till it's done!

Digging over beds as you need them and covering the ones you can't get to or don't yet need will get you thru it in do-able chunks.   I had mare's tail in parts of my last garden where the soil was imported, neutral clay.   I just hoed, dug, pulled as appropriate.   

You can make a very good fungicide and rust treatment by soaking mares' tail in a bucket of water for a few weeks (needs a lid) and then strain and dilute 10 parts water to 1 part liquid.   If you use weedkiller, don't make tea, obviously, but do add a bit of washing up liquid to the mix to help it stick and break or crush the stems to help absorption as they contain a lot of silica and can be a bit impervious.   Used to be used as pan scrubs.

Doing the same now in this new garden where the 25 x 29m veg plot is riddled with bindweed.   Clear it one new bed at a time and then keep it hoed.   We leave the roots and shoots out in the sun to dry out completely before they go anywhere near a compost heap.
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: ACE on May 12, 2019, 19:16:46
Being a gravedigger for a number of years when I was younger, deep digging was my speciality. :tongue3: It didn't take long to turn a plot over with the right tools, not a silly little garden spade, a nice big heavy builders shovel worked a treat for me. Getting on a bit now so piddly little tools are the norm. But it keeps me fit.
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Tee Gee on May 12, 2019, 20:08:30
Quote
of course the experienced allotmenteers on this forum would only take a couple of hours to dig 300 tonnes of soil but for newbies it would take perhaps a lifetime or a bit longer.

Well a couple of hours for a whole plot is pushing it a bit, but I used to dig and muck one of these beds in under 3 hours and found it to be quite therapeutic and more than that most beneficial to my soil.

(http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/gallery/A&G/12-A&G/Dec%2013%20Blog/Allot/Plot%2019%20after%20(2).jpg)

The best bit about digging say one spit deep is you can generally keep on top of all the most problematic of weeds e.g mares tail, dandelions, docks to name but a few.

I have always maintained that a plot's output is relative to the gardener's input!

So as they say up here in Yorkshire......nout in nout out!

Then there is the more common saying......you reap what you sow!

Now that I have retired from allotmenteering I think I could say that having tried many of the new fangled  methods such as " no dig" or "raised beds" one spit deep digging always gave me my best results!

So I guess if you make your own bed then it it is up to you to accept it!( ok lie in it!) :thumbsup:




Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Tiny Clanger on June 01, 2019, 11:03:31
Unfortunately the ONLY ones I know of are not suitable for use on an allotment.  :BangHead:
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: martinrowe on February 20, 2021, 22:00:59
We have got some of this in our garden.  The main problem is that it is very difficult to get rid of it and it has been around for millions of years.  I have found WHO bedevilled knocks it back when mixed at a slightly higher close.  Greeting the main areas of growth seems to have made a difference.

This plant was on the earth prior to dinosaurs, so knows how to service and grow.
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Digeroo on February 21, 2021, 13:06:46
Have you tried lime?  When I lived near the edge of the chalk North Downs, it was easy to see where the Green sandstone layer underneath it comes to the surface, it is where the marestail starts as well.
I only have it in one place in my garden, where the water butt leaks, so the ground is watered with rainwater. 
A few allotments on our site had bits of it, but once watered with well water which come through limestone, it soon dies out.
I do not know how much you need, but apart from things like blue berries everything else will still grow ok well, and your potatoes might look scabby.

Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: saddad on February 22, 2021, 07:49:44
Improving the soil does help, with lime or muck, it is a very primitive plant, not having true leaves and finds it difficult to compete with strong growth, but thrives on poor soils. I found Ammonium Sulphamate (sorry English spelling!) very useful for bringing very neglected plots back into cultivation in the '90's.
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Harry on April 25, 2023, 18:31:19
Ok. Re-raising this old chestnut, because my newly acquired plot has this b45t4rd all over it. Bindweed, too.

First off, where others are dealing with this, they don't say whether it's maturely grown, green marestail, or just short shoots. Does that make the plan of attack different?

To anyone who says, just keep excavating it out, I just don't see it. If I COULD get rid of all mine, I figure it would only take a year to get reinfected from another plot, or from a leftover shred of root.

Unknowingly. I dug over and weeded one of my beds, thinking i'd done a fair job of pulling out weed roots. That was before i knew this beast. I covered over half the bed to suppress weeds and proceeded to sow spuds and beans in the cleared area. So far so good.

A couple of weeks later, i lifted my tarp and saw lots of 2 inch marestail shoots. The covering seemed to encourage it!!
So i started to dig again to try to get them out. But there were also a similar number of these weed shoots among my sowed spuds and beans. I've loosened and pulled many, but I don't want to disturb my sown seeds. The ones I pull out, I generally get 6-9 inch of root, but no way i get it all. It snaps SO easily. If it matters, my soil is nice loam and I'm not doing no-dig.

Now. i see someone say this doesn't take much from the soil, and I've been told it's better to leave the shoots so as not to disturb my sowing.
But I'm torn. I don't want it to prosper, but I do want my veg to grow. Short of abandoning all hope, what should i do? Will hoeing have enough impact? Do i just have to live with it?

Next question?
I'm nurturing a pretty good compost heap and i'd LIKE to compost my weeds, but i fear the tiniest bit of marestail contamination could make the compost heap useless. Heck, it may well be contaminated already. Short of not deliberately composting marestail, how do i keep it out? Should i not compost weeds at all? Is it not inevitable that it will get infected anyway via spores?

I also have bindweed present, but that pales into insignificance by comparison.

I'm taking all pulled weeds offsite and currently brown binning them. I'm a BIT wary of infecting my garden beds from spores on my shoes and tools. Am i overthinking this?

Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Beersmith on April 25, 2023, 20:41:17
With hard work it is certainly possible to control and even eradicate bind weed and couch grass from loam. Not easy but doable and progress made one season will make it easier for the next.

Mare's tail is an order of magnitude more difficult.  As you have observed the roots break off easily and it will regenerate from even small pieces. If you want to avoid strong weedkiller some recommend boosting both the soil fertility and also the pH.  Strangely it seems to like impoverished poor quality soils better than rich ones.  It's tough.  Good luck.
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Obelixx on April 25, 2023, 21:31:30
Regular and frequent hoeing will weaken it but you'll have to be consistent and make sure yu get it before it can set spores and multiply.  The roots go down forever so digging it all out is not an option and it's got a lot of silica so needs to be crushed before it will absorb weedkiller.

It does have some benefits tho as you can use the stems you've hoed off to make a purin which is a great fungicide and will act both as a preventative treatment and a cure. 

1kilo fresh horsetail, bashed and bruised
9 litres of water

Combine the two in a plastic bucket - not metal - and leave for 2 weeks.  Stir occasionally.  It's ready when the water has gone black.  It will smell so you may want a lid.

Strain the resulting liquid, put the goo on the compost heap and dilute the rest 1 part to 9 parts water and spray.

Harmless to insects and can be used as a cure as well as to prevent mildew, peach leaf curl, black spot on roses, tomato blight....

Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Plot22 on April 26, 2023, 15:45:47
I have a 2 neighbours on my allotment site both of which have it and only hoe or do nothing. I have bits coming under the pad but I kill it with Kurtail and have done so for some years now. For the odd bit that I have I cut the bottom off a plastic bottle put it over the Mare's Tail and spray it result it goes black in days. The odd bit that comes back I repeat the process. We have had  one character on the allotment site who had half his plot a forest of Mare's Tail. What did he do he set a lawn on it for his kids to play on and then gave the allotment up. Result whoever takes it on has to kill both his lawn and the Mare's Tail. I think he was from the Ukraine but the icing on the cake he said he he was a gardener by profession and looked after people's gardens for a living. Not mine I wish to add. Kurtail is not cheap £35 plus postage but it works and 0.5litre will last sometime when diluted.
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Harry on April 28, 2023, 20:56:30
Ammonium sulphamate really does kill the stuff, but the EU banned it's use, because it refused to review the data supplied unless it contained details of animal testing on dogs, which the supplier thought would cause unnecessary suffering to animals  :BangHead:
 
You can only buy it to as a compost accelerant now.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_sulfamate and other sites about it and its use.

opinions, please, on this listing for ammonium sulphamate (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314527982260) accelerator? If I accidentally spill it on weed foliage, will it damage the soil like Sodium Chlorate would would it quickly biodegrade like glyphosphate?
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Obelixx on April 28, 2023, 21:30:44
No idea but please note that glyphosate does not biodegrade in the soil.

It becomes inactive when not in contact with green growth in your garden or arable crops but seeps into water courses where it is active and affects aquatic plants as well as turning up in water consumed by humans as well as any pastoral critters - cattle, sheep, pigs and wildlife - as well as aquatic creatures.

Unless you have acres of mare's tail the simplest treatment is to hoe or strim it regularly and let it dry before composting or else make the purin I mentioned.   Any plant starved of its food factory - the foliage above ground - will weaken and die tho maybe not overnight.
 
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Harry on April 28, 2023, 21:59:31
No idea but please note that glyphosate does not biodegrade in the soil.

It becomes inactive when not in contact with green growth in your garden or arable crops but seeps into water courses where it is active and affects aquatic plants as well as turning up in water consumed by humans as well as any pastoral critters - cattle, sheep, pigs and wildlife - as well as aquatic creatures.

Unless you have acres of mare's tail the simplest treatment is to hoe or strim it regularly and let it dry before composting or else make the purin I mentioned.   Any plant starved of its food factory - the foliage above ground - will weaken and die tho maybe not overnight.
Thanks,
I guess I've been taken in by Glyphosphate manufacturers. I'm no chemist, but even i can see that it is a complex molecule, likely to have a complex set of by products.
I'm drawn to this Ammonium sulfamate because it's a much simpler chemical, with a fair chance of breaking down completely.

Anyhow, for now, I only see two UK sellers on ebay and the cheaper of the two could be anybody, bagging up any sort of white crystal and who would know what it really is. Could be anything from baking powder to Sodium Chlorate and we'd be none the wiser.

Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Harry on April 30, 2023, 15:22:04
No idea but please note that glyphosate does not biodegrade in the soil.
Thanks,

I'm drawn to this Ammonium sulfamate because it's a much simpler chemical, with a fair chance of breaking down completely.
I've bitten the bullet and bought some of this Ammonium Sulphamate ' compost  accelerator. It will be used to accelerate the composting of marestail, bindweed and the most persistent of perenial weeds, 'In Situ'  :happy7:

Please don't scold me for pushing the envelope on what is legitimate use. Like many others, I see this as safer and more appropriate than the non-banned glyphosate. I'll only be using this as a spot treatment of those 'compostibles'
Will possibly mix it with either a soap mixture, or maybe wallpaper paste, to help it soak in.

I'm a little concerned that the seller could be sending me any old bag of crystal and I won't KNOW that this is what it purports to be. So, there will be some experimentation away from my veg growing areas. I'm thinking I'll use a little to nuke compost some weeds in my path. If they die, that will be the proof that it is indeed a herbicide and if/when they return, that will be evidence that it's not something daft like sodium chlorate. I'll also attempt to germinate some peas in compost that has been 'pre-poisoned' by this stuff.

Let the flames begin? Do I have any support here from 'fellow composters'?

Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Obelixx on April 30, 2023, 17:12:32
You can just pee on your compost heap.  It's a great accelerator too and convenient.
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Harry on April 30, 2023, 23:32:40
You can just pee on your compost heap.  It's a great accelerator too and convenient.
Thanks. I do in my own garden 'tardis' composters, but it would be a bit too public at the allotment.
Beside. My pee won't kill marestail.  :happy7:
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Obelixx on May 01, 2023, 12:43:50
No, hoeing will do that and composting all the debris will lead to soil improvement so pee away to get it going.
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Harry on May 01, 2023, 15:38:02
No, hoeing will do that and composting all the debris will lead to soil improvement so pee away to get it going.
Sorry Obelixx. I'll hoe and I'll pee, and my composting is going grear guns. But no way any of the marestail debris is going into my compost. That 645t4rd stuff gets taken offsite.
I've read the ideas of making a fungicide out of it and I may try that, but for now it's public enemy number one.
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: picman on May 03, 2023, 15:24:30
I my experience no safe chemicals will touch mares tail. My plots were over run with it. when digging a deep trench for beans i could find the network of black roots 60cm down... the only answer it to dig it up where it pops up , get it all, every little bit left will grow again. So 23 years on , i have nearly irradiated it , nearly ...  well apparently it was around at the same time as the dinosaurs ... 
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Harry on May 03, 2023, 18:47:33
I my experience no safe chemicals will touch mares tail. My plots were over run with it. when digging a deep trench for beans i could find the network of black roots 60cm down... the only answer it to dig it up where it pops up , get it all, every little bit left will grow again. So 23 years on , i have nearly irradiated it , nearly ...  well apparently it was around at the same time as the dinosaurs ...
Which begs the question "If we can't eradicate it from our growing beds, to what extent does  it inhibit our efforts to grow food?" "When is good enough, good enough?"
E.g. I have shoots popping up amongst my spuds and peas and beans because I sowed before i knew I had this stuff. 
Those damned shoots grow about 2 inches per day and are outgrowing my seedlings. I chop them off every couple of days to weaken them, but it's a thankless task and I can't dig the roots out now without disturbing my seeds. Will my spuds and courgettes, peas and beans ever be able to outcompete the marestail for light and coexist and prosper in spite of marestail
?
We know marestail is our number #1 enemy, but does it wreck our crop. It's vast root network doesn't seem to be as choking as those other enemies, bindweed and couch.

Basically, am I pi55ing in the wind? :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead:

I've read that marestail topgrowth naturally dies back in winter? does that mess up our ability to nuke it with weed killer compost accelerator?
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Obelixx on May 03, 2023, 20:16:51
Forget chemicals for nuking!!  They are horrendous for soil organisms from microbe level to invertebrates and bigger things you can actually see.

Just keep cutting or hoeing back the stems you can see until the potaitoes and other crops get big enough to cope and swamp it themselves.   Once the spuds are ready for harvest, fork them out and separate and thoroughly dry out any marestail stems and roots then bin or compost them.   Hoe and rake the soil thoroughly then cover your soil with cardboard and wet it before planting your next crop through it.

The cardboard will restrict light and weaken marestail growth and make it easier to see/water/nurture your follow on crop.   Keep doing this with all your crop rotations and you will eventually win.  If you don't like the look of the cardboard, cover it with greenery such as pulled weeds, grass cuttings, potato haulms etc and let it rot down in situ. 

An don't forget the maretsail "soup"!!   It's good for :

Fights the spread of plant diseases, including cryptogamic diseases: downy mildew, powdery mildew, rust, scab, peach leaf curl, etc.
Preventive fight against rust, blister, brown rot and scab
Repellent capacities against mites and leek worm
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Harry on May 03, 2023, 20:51:10
Forget chemicals for nuking!!  They are horrendous for soil organisms from microbe level to invertebrates and bigger things you can actually see.

Just keep cutting or hoeing back the stems you can see until the potaitoes and other crops get big enough to cope and swamp it themselves.   Once the spuds are ready for harvest, fork them out and separate and thoroughly dry out any marestail stems and roots then bin or compost them.   Hoe and rake the soil thoroughly then cover your soil with cardboard and wet it before planting your next crop through it.

The cardboard will restrict light and weaken marestail growth and make it easier to see/water/nurture your follow on crop.   Keep doing this with all your crop rotations and you will eventually win.  If you don't like the look of the cardboard, cover it with greenery such as pulled weeds, grass cuttings, potato haulms etc and let it rot down in situ. 

An don't forget the maretsail "soup"!!   It's good for :

Fights the spread of plant diseases, including cryptogamic diseases: downy mildew, powdery mildew, rust, scab, peach leaf curl, etc.
Preventive fight against rust, blister, brown rot and scab
Repellent capacities against mites and leek worm
Thank you.
I take your organic advice with gratitude. On Glyphosphate, I concede that it is a bit evil. The sulphamate will get experimented with, but I accept that is being a bit defiant against yourself. Please don't take it personally.

I'm going to try the approach "Never let it see a Sunday". That will be hoeing, plucking or pulling every shhot, every week, before they reach 3 inches. I seek reassurance that that will get me through a growing season, albeit with weed roots amongst my crop.

I can get plenty of cardboard and I am laying it out between my 'plants' to reduce the open ground area that can be appropriated by the weeds. Hopefully every little helps. Marestail doesnt seem to care about being covered. The shoots seemed to love breaking the surface while under tarps. It's like they bob their little heads above the soil to see what's going on :)

Interesting comment about leaving hoed weeds and green 'stuff' on the surface. That feels a bit contrarian, but I think I get it. Once uprooted or damaged, let the weeds languish and rot where they fall?

You seem to reassure me that my spuds etc really will suppress photosynthesis by weeds. I hope you are right.

I'm currently too wary to do anything with the marestail waste other than take it offsite for disposal.





Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Obelixx on May 04, 2023, 13:01:54
Marestail roots can go down for metres so there's plenty of energy there for making new shootsuntil you reach the point where you've removed enough of the shoots and often enough to prevent any energy being resupplied and then the roots will weaken.

Do try and save some of your hoeings for making the purin as it can help against potato and tomato blight as well as peach leaf curl and all sorts of other fingal problems:

1kg horsetail stems
9 litres rainwater

Crush the stems and steep them in the water, covered, for 2 weeks or till it all turns black.  Do not use a metal container.   Strain the resulting goo and keep in sealed bottles.  Dilute 1 part purin to 9 parts water and spray in spring or autumn when fungal problems are most prevalent.


There are several threads about marestail/horsetail on the GW forum and one chap says he weakened his by spreading lime which would be a good idea anyway when/if you plant to plant brassicas.   
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Harry on May 04, 2023, 16:40:49
Marestail roots can go down for metres so there's plenty of energy there for making new shootsuntil you reach the point where you've removed enough of the shoots and often enough to prevent any energy being resupplied and then the roots will weaken.

Do try and save some of your hoeings for making the purin as it can help against potato and tomato blight as well as peach leaf curl and all sorts of other fingal problems:

1kg horsetail stems
9 litres rainwater

Crush the stems and steep them in the water, covered, for 2 weeks or till it all turns black.  Do not use a metal container.   Strain the resulting goo and keep in sealed bottles.  Dilute 1 part purin to 9 parts water and spray in spring or autumn when fungal problems are most prevalent.


There are several threads about marestail/horsetail on the GW forum and one chap says he weakened his by spreading lime which would be a good idea anyway when/if you plant to plant brassicas.
OK. You persuaded me. 1kg of stems will be easy to harvest and the site IS prone to blight. Do you think I can make the 'tea' in time for spraying this year's tomatoes and spuds?


Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Obelixx on May 04, 2023, 16:56:14
It takes 2 weeks.  See recipe.
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Vinlander on May 08, 2023, 12:09:27
I remember reading about someone recommending sowing turnip seeds in quantity to control marestail/horsetail - I can't remember if it was in this forum or not (and the A4A search engine isn't up to it), but I got the impression that the writer had tested it.

OTOH the only reference I found (using Google) had found it in a 1917 book & was honest about being unaware of any proof, but muddied the waters even more by adding thistles & bindweed to the list.

It also occurs to me that turnips could be regarded as a family including swedes & mangelwurzels.

Anyway it would be good to hear of any tests - anyone prepared to let their turnips run to seed in the cause of Small Science?

Cheers 
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Harry on May 08, 2023, 18:07:34
Forget chemicals for nuking!!

Just keep cutting or hoeing back the stems you can see until the potaitoes and other crops get big enough to cope and swamp it themselves.   ...
Hoe and rake the soil thoroughly then cover your soil with cardboard and wet it before planting your next crop through it.

The cardboard will restrict light and weaken marestail growth and make it easier to see/water/nurture your follow on crop.   Keep doing this with all your crop rotations and you will eventually win.  If you don't like the look of the cardboard, cover it with greenery such as pulled weeds, grass cuttings, potato haulms etc and let it rot down in situ. 
Thank you.
I take your organic advice with gratitude. On Glyphosphate, I concede that it is a bit evil. The sulphamate will get experimented with, but I accept that is being a bit defiant against yourself. Please don't take it personally.

I'm going to try the approach "Never let it see a Sunday". That will be hoeing, plucking or pulling every shhot, every week, before they reach 3 inches.
Oh hum. The battle continues.
Had a session today after last topping the marestail last Wednesday. In five days, some 4 inchest or so of new shoots had appeared pretty much all over my cleared area, and amongst my spuds and sown seeds. It was most disheartening. About 45 minutes to go back over those areas, pretty much just tearing the tops off. I couldn't try to get to many of the roots because of proximity to my seeds, some of which have yet to germinate.

This is not the way it is to be! Unacceptable use of my time. If I need to spend that amount of time just on this one bloody weed, then I need to get smarter.
During todays session, I started to clear another bed, untended and infected by this pernicious b*****d. This next bed is to be a test environment for the approach of growing through barriers. I'm going to lay a half of the bed with cardboard and half with some weed suppressing sheet (Not plastic, It's some permeable stuff I have found in the shed). I'm going to chop some holes in it and sow through those holes. My thought is that if the marestail can only get through the holes, I'll have a smaller area to control.
I expect the card will not last long, and the sheet stuff will probably accumulate dirt and weeds on top of it. But I need to buy time.
Hoeing does not cut the mustard, because these weeds seem to just lap it up. I daren't leave the chopped shoots on the soil in case they regenerate roots? Can it do that?
Anyway. The war continues. I'll update this thread if I make progress... Or if I don't.
,
 
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Obelixx on May 09, 2023, 14:24:36
It will be hard work this year but perseverance will weaken it and it will become manageable and easier to control as the seasons go by.  Do try liming the soil as it thrives in acidic conditions.
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Harry on May 09, 2023, 17:00:31
It will be hard work this year but perseverance will weaken it and it will become manageable and easier to control as the seasons go by.  Do try liming the soil as it thrives in acidic conditions.
Thanks.
Update:-
Literally 24 hours after a long session of ripping off marestail shoots, I returned to the plot. Another 30 mins plus of ripping more shots off and roughly a half gallon of shoots harvested from maybe 25 sq metres. I will make fungicide tea out of those. But it shows how incredibly quickly this stuff pops up. Amazing.
Some of the shoots, you can see how they heaved soil up on their heads in big lumps :)

My potato bed looks like there's been sumo wrestling on it where I've been rooting MT out.
Other small weeds are being mostly ignored for now.

Now... If I hoe, can I leave the ripped off shoots where they lie? It would save me a chunk of time.
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Paulh on May 09, 2023, 20:41:55
On the hoeing, in practice, yes. If the hoe separates the top from the root, the top will die. Most annual weed roots will also die; those perennials or others that regrow, you will weaken with the hoeing or remove by hand when larger. Some weeds will be pulled out without being severed; these will also dry out and die in fine weather. In wet weather, you run the risk that they will be bedded back in by rain and recover. But you get them on another day.
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Borlotti on May 09, 2023, 20:45:38
I had mares tail on my plot but had loads of runner beans, strawberries, gooseberries, apple tree etc etc. I was told 'bend it like Beckham'. Joe Swift gave up but he only got an allotment in Enfield for TV. I had mine for 15 years and enjoyed it and my allotment friends. Do a bed at a time and dont panic. My raspberries did OK with the mares tail, not a perfect allotment, courgettes will grow anywhere.
Our new garden has bamboo, canes very useful for wigwam for runner beans.
Dont give up and dont panic.
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Tiny Clanger on May 11, 2023, 10:21:38
I don't have that on my plot (Bindweed and Couch grass are the weeds of choice). The guys that are afflicted with MAre's Tail say the only sure way is to dig, dig, dig.  Keep removing and it will radically reduce in time.
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Harry on May 11, 2023, 11:12:16
I don't have that on my plot (Bindweed and Couch grass are the weeds of choice). The guys that are afflicted with MAre's Tail say the only sure way is to dig, dig, dig.  Keep removing and it will radically reduce in time.
Best we can do is keep on top of it and suppress it. It can never be eradicated and turn your back on it for a few weeks and it returns.
But hey ho. It doesn't eat much, nor does it choke our crops. It is simply.... There to annoy us by laughing at our mortal struggle. :BangHead:
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Tee Gee on May 11, 2023, 16:50:27
As I see it, it is Hoe! Hoe! Hoe! Then a few weeks later, it's some more Hoe! Hoe! Hoeing! :nike:

Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Harry on May 11, 2023, 19:03:58
As I see it, it is Hoe! Hoe! Hoe! Then a few weeks later, it's some more Hoe! Hoe! Hoeing! :nike:

Masochist  :tongue3:

Don't you like murdering baby shoots?  :happy7: Is it a sense of fair play where you like to pick on something your own size? Are you trying to maximise your crop of this stuff? :tongue3:

Tell you what, if this stuff were edible, we could feed the world.
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Tee Gee on May 11, 2023, 20:47:43
Thought you might like to see my plot when I took it over;
Title: Re: Mare's Tail
Post by: Harry on May 11, 2023, 22:51:46
Kudos  :icon_cheers: :icon_cheers:

I think anyone who takes on and clears an untended plot should get a medal and at least  a free years rent....
And those that rent a plot and don't tend it should have to explain themselves at least.

At my site, the use it or lose it rules read as draconian, but no sign of them being applied.
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal