Allotments 4 All
General => The Shed => Topic started by: cambourne7 on October 04, 2018, 10:36:35
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Hi
Yes this is an edible food question but i though it might go off in a tangent so popped it into the shed.
I am certainly growing more carrots, peas, beans, onions and garlic than last year and maybe more potatoes. Also going to look at growing more salad crops well different ones as they were a disaster this year.
What are other people doing differently next year?
Cam
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Are you talking contingency food supply?
In which case I would start now. In the greenhouse or under cloches, sow now or broadcast seeds (as tomato plants etc are presumably still in place) for greens. Easiest and hardiest are rocket, cress and lambs lettuce. Mustard, especially red mustard, carrots for very early carrots next year, coriander, ordinary lettuce, cress, the asian veg like Mitsuna etc. There are also radishes and turnips that will get going early in the year. Turnips can be sown now but will probably only be good for the greens, which can be cooked. These are pretty winter hardy, especially under cloches or in a poly or greenhouse. They will go dormant for a while, but as soon as growing starts again in spring next year, they will produce a lot of foliage for fresh greens or cooking greens. Chard also goes through winter well, might be worth chucking a bit of fleece on any plants in the garden to prevent too many leaves being killed by frost. The centre will resprout in spring even after a hard frost, but keeping most of the leaves going over winter gives another fresh green food.
Another easy one is mung beans for sprouting on the window sill indoors. Mung bean seeds bought now will last for several years and you only need a heaped table spoon of seeds for a good portion of bean sprouts for a family. They come from the supermarket or health food shop and are much cheaper than anything bought as 'seed'. Mustard seed makes good windowsill 'cress' in just a few days. Again bought not as seed but as food which is a lot cheaper. Any seeds for sprouting will bridge that gap before garden produce will be plentiful again.
I guess it will be the fresh greens that might be scarce, with the rootcrops like carrots, potatoes and swedes remaining available as they are UK grown.
Would not hurt to lay by a few packets of dried peas and dried beans. For eating, but ordinary dried peas produce pea shoots for an early veg too. And peas and beans have a high protein content also.
Beans, squash and corn are said to be a balanced diet. Any winter squash harvested should not be eaten now, but stored for as long as possible into the new year to bridge a gap if necessary.
Now is also the time to look into food preservation. Drying, freezing, putting up in kilner jars and storing well for long preservation.
Next year I would look into winter veg as well as the usual summer veg, leeks, kale, brussels, parsnip, cabbage. Plan for the year round garden where you can harvest food every day of the year. :wave:
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I'd be more worried about the effects of this year's drought on prices for home produced crops such as onions, carrots, potatoes as UK farmers are reporting crops down by 30 to 60% depending on the crop and area.
After that look at where the main crops you buy in shops are sourced and think about growing the stuff that comes from Spain/France/Italy/Netherlands - so peppers, salads, tomatoes, herbs, apples, oranges etc. Even if supplies aren't disrupted, prices are likely to rise until the pound starts to recover value against the Euro.
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What veg from the EU do you normally buy? Surely these are the only things you need to add to your usual growing list.
In my mind, the only things that we might be short of are early tomatoes (some, but not all, imported from EU) and some of the leafy salad crops, that you may be used to buying in bags.
We can't grow the tomatoes out of season, but huge greenhouses like Thanet Earth grow toms all year round, although they may be more expensive because of any shortage. Winter salads are easy enough to grow through winter, given some protection.
I've already sown more early Spring cabbage and Chard than normal, and will sow a few more early mangetout in the greenhouse than usual.
I really don't think it's anything worth losing sleep over though..
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I really don't think it's anything worth losing sleep over though..
I am of the same opinion, I wish I had all the bulls#!t that has been spouted over Brexit. I could grow all my veg then. Dig for Victory saw us through worse than what's predicted. The price will go up as opportunists and the quick buck boys take advantage of the gullible. Like everything else if I think it's a rip off I shop elsewhere.
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The price will go up as opportunists and the quick buck boys take advantage of the gullible.
Totally agree!
The only thing I plan on doing differently is as I have mentioned elsewhere....I am giving up my allotment!
However I am planning a more edible / ornamental garden with a mix of the things I like to eat along with the flower types I like to grow.
So I do not envisage a great deal of difference from the past other than quantities!
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I have grown masses of tomatoes this year and have enjoyed platters of red, orange and yellow beef tomatoes with a splash of dressing or on a cheesy tart. Kilos and kilos of them from teeny little plants bought at a plant fair in April.
Yesterday we saw them on sale for 18€95 a kilo and just the red and orange ones and not organic. That's a reason to grow your own that's far more pertinent than Brexit.
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Well, Brussels sprouts are out!
Seriously, can anybody seriously believe that exporters are not going to supply us? Has anybody got any reason to believe that we would refuse to accept as imports, anything that we have always received?
Unless the civil war here really does kick off; its business as usual. Fake news.
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Seriously, can anybody seriously believe that exporters are not going to supply us?
I fully agree. The issue will be at what price? A lot of folks are struggling to get by as it is. A hefty increase in food prices will come as another kick in the teeth for many. Let's hope it doesn't pan out in that way.
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Does anyone else think as I do and that is:
In my opinion The 'hard Brexit issue' is simply a deterrent by certain factions in the EU.
If we get an easy route out then all those countries such as Greece,Italy,Netherlands and Spain to name but a few who I think are sitting in the wings waiting to see how the UK is dealt with so that they can get out too.
If we get an easy way out then I think they will put in their application to leave the EU and expect the same. The countries. I have mentioned are also affected by ' borders' so the Irish issue could be a test case.
Then of course if these countries were to leave there would be a massive big hole in EU funding meaning countries such as Germany and France would have to dig deep to fund the drop in revenue and then I am sure they will not want that.
Is it any wonder that those MEP's in Brussels are being difficult, where will they be if the EU goes 'pear shaped'......out of a job!
Something I have often wondered is: have other countries also sent 'failed' politicians the likes of; Kinnock,Patten,Britten, to name a few to run the show and this is why it is a bit of a closed shop and must be kept together?
The is the centenary year of WW1 where thousands gave their lives to keep Britain independent of Europe and we find people like those I have mentioned are fighting to save their cushy well paid jobs jobs,not their lives in order to oppose our freedom.
Let's get out and put the ' Great' back into Britain and show them we can hold our own in the world.
Then when we have done that let's get our Parliamentary system changed to one that is fit for purpose!
Sorry folks for going all political but the whole issue is p*****g me off a bit! :BangHead: :drunken_smilie:
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The First World War was not fought to keep Britain out of Europe. It was about Britain respecting its treaties, accords and commitments to its allies. After the 2nd World War it was Churchill who suggested that Europe needed to unite to prevent further conflagrations and it began with the Italian Belgian coal treaty and things like Benelux and grew from there. It was fine when it was an economic alliance but politicians have taken the political unity too far for everyone except themselves.
Many French don't like this aspect, many Dutch, Swedes, Poles, Germans, Italians etc. On the other hand, it has been a great force for economic good and allowed development of infrastructure in countries that wouldn't otherwise have afforded it , especially the south and now the east. This leads t expanded markets for the richer countries so is a win win. It even funded lots of regional stuff in Britain and provided annual subsidies to projects in Wales and other "remote" and "deprived" regions of the UK. The main problem as I see it is that the UK governments and its own EU civil servants never fully engaged and instead of carrying its weight in the decision processes and uniting with the Dutch and Swedes and others the UK held back and let the French-German power block move ahead without restraint.
I expect the UK will have hardships adjusting to the lack of cheap and willing seasonal labour for crops, lack of people willing to work all hours at low pay in the catering and hotel industries and the loss of skilled staff in the NHS but the Brits will cope and recover. I do pity those at the bottom of the social food chain and those who will lose their jobs as foreign manufacturers and services move back to mainland Europe.
The main problem with fresh food imports is price rises and hold-ups at Customs plus the costs of extra processing thru borders. Salads, soft fruits, tomatoes lose quality with delays.
Grow your own and insulate yourselves against price hikes.
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Well, Brussels sprouts are out!
:toothy10: :toothy10: :toothy10:
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Britain isn't called Great Britain because we are great. It is just Great"er" Britain so putting the "Great" back is meaningless in an historical context.
We also didn't fight WW1 to remain independent of Europe either as mentioned above - and 700,000 UK service men died.
I also don't think there is much evidence to suggest that other countries are queuing up to leave the EU - where is the evidence for that? Support for the EU is actually at its highest for 35 years (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/at-your-service/en/be-heard/eurobarometer/eurobarometer-2018-democracy-on-the-move)
I don't even see the EU as being difficult. The UK voted to leave the EU - we are out of the club so we can't benefit from being in the club. I don't get to use my allotment site after I decide to leave it and the UK doesn't get to cherry pic what it wants from the EU. If you think the EU is being difficult and mean to us then god help us all when it comes to negotiating all those trade deals we will need to put in place.
Food prices have already risen and they will rise again. This is not some sort of conspiracy by business to hike prices for no good reason. Prices are going up now because the pound has been devalued as a result of the vote. The pound is just about 1:1 withthe Euro now. So imports are more expensive - very basic economics. If the pound goes lower then prices will go up. The price of even home produced foods goes up too as we import fertilisers and fuel and other inputs
Prices are also likely to rise if we bomb out. At the moment we have trade deals, through the EU, with dozens of countries that give us imports without traffics for all sorts of produce. If we leave the EU all of those Trade Agreements are null and void - we literally will have no trade agreements with anyone (bar the one or two African countries that have made an agreement). Falling back on WTO rules means prices will rise as tariffs will apply..
Will I be growing more or different food because of Brexit - probably not. I am pretty well off and very self sufficient. It isn't the likes of me that will suffer - it is those on low fixed incomes who don't have the resources to cope with food price rises that will suffer. In the years that come I will probably head south anyway if possible - Portugal, Greece or Spain beckons.
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Good summary.
I don't think anyone in continental EU disputes the economic benefits of being in the EU but there are mumblings about the progress to political unity and homogenisation but nothing organised and I can't see any other countries queuing up to hold referenda after watching the Brexit process. Britain trades with many countries but will be at a massive disadvantage when trying to make new trade deals because, on its own, it's tiny compared to the potential market in the EU so of no special interest to give concessions. It's also having to spend a fortune to hire specialist negotiators because the EU did that collectively so learning curves to go thru too.
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Sorry, but i really don't think this forum is the place for rants and opinions as to the result of the referendum and what is beginning to look like the possible effect of it. Far too many of us have been totally and utterly saddened by it.
I will be leaving this group if this carries on.
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Don't think there's any ranting going on, just opinions and explanations about why prices will rise and certain commodities may be harder to come by and thus what people may decide to grow on their plots.
You can always ignore a thread you don't like.
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I think the weather will have more effect on what I manage to grow. This year has been very challenging with four months of drought.
It will be nice to know that we will have something of a buffer whatever the outcome.
I agree I can see no ranting about the referendum. I think it is a good idea to think about possible outcomes.
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We are leaving the best and well regulated market place in the world, and people on here still think fears of high prices is fake news. We leave the customs union? - then all our goods for export to the EU will be checked and subject to tariffs just like any other non EU country trying to export to the EU (perhaps why Turkey has a customs union with the EU). leave the single market and we face all sorts of difficulties in exporting to the EU, hence why the car industry is getting ready to leave. Only the self sufficiency dreamers on here can believe nothing much will change - everything will change - for the worse I'm afraid.
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So now we know where you stand on Brexit - but we still don't know if you'll be growing more lettuce or peas, which was what the OP asked. :mblah05: :mblah05: :mblah05:
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I think the price of fresh salad will go up about 50%with availability and freshness will going down about 50% so I guess I will grow more of these - I hope that helps Plot 18
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It's a shame that because one person objects to the thread, the rest of us stop posting, I can usually see the way the thread is going by the title or by a few posts, I then move on if I don't like it. The 'ranters' were starting to give me a bigger insight to the problems I usually dismiss and although some were easily recognised as false news others gave me food for thought. I live in an area where quite a few different crops are grown, garlic, sweetcorn, tomatoes etc and most of the pickers speak a different language than I do. They are often referred to as Umpa Lumpas as they follow en masse after the reaping machinery in their orange overalls.
These crops still need a market, so instead of shipping them overseas and us shipping the same stuff from other countries, won't it even out? So we wait a week or so for new potatoes, tomatoes etc, lettuce grows on your windowsill. like it or not we are self sufficient. The work force will still be here on the same basic rate that 70% of the unskilled british workers are on at the moment. The workshy have been ousted with the introduction of universal credit so produce will still be harvested. That is just us. Now the French, Spanish and Italian farmers are much more volatile than the walked over british, do you think they will put up with constraints on what they can sell us? No they will be up in arms and things will rapidly change back to normal.
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But who is going to harvest British field crops if cheap eastern EU labour is no longer allowed in?
In the past, my grandparents had their annual "hols" picking hops in Kent. OH's mum and gran went fruit picking in Worcestershire for low pay but also free fruit. That sort of thing is long gone and unemployed Brits won't be queuing up to do it as they seem to think such work is beneath them.
I think allotmenteers and home veg growers are going to be in a fortunate position. The thing to do is grow veggies and fruit and salads that suit your taste buds as well as your soil and climate but maybe think a bit more about what is likely to more expensive or really needs to be eaten fresh and not left sitting in trucks for days as they wait border clearance.
The other thing to bear in mind is the likely price hikes for carrots, onions and potatoes whose yields have all been badly affected by this summer's drought. That will have a more immediate impact on your food costs this year.
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"unemployed Brits won't be queuing up to do it as they seem to think such work is beneath them"
I am sure this is true for some, but an idiotic benefits system makes it worse. If you are unemployed and getting benefits then get a temporary job some or all of the benefits will stop. Rightly so. But once the temporary work runs out there is no immediate restoration of benefits. Re register as a job seeker, re apply for benefits. It can and often does mean a period without any income. A standard three day wait, then anything up to two weeks before any payment is made.
A well designed benefits system would encourage temporary work, as it reduces the burden on the tax payer
but in reality the one we have puts people off by giving them hassle, inconvenience and hitting them in the pocket after the temporary work is over.
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It's a shame that because one person objects to the thread, the rest of us stop posting, I can usually see the way the thread is going by the title or by a few posts, I then move on if I don't like it. The 'ranters' were starting to give me a bigger insight to the problems I usually dismiss and although some were easily recognised as false news others gave me food for thought. I live in an area where quite a few different crops are grown, garlic, sweetcorn, tomatoes etc and most of the pickers speak a different language than I do. They are often referred to as Umpa Lumpas as they follow en masse after the reaping machinery in their orange overalls.
These crops still need a market, so instead of shipping them overseas and us shipping the same stuff from other countries, won't it even out? So we wait a week or so for new potatoes, tomatoes etc, lettuce grows on your windowsill. like it or not we are self sufficient. The work force will still be here on the same basic rate that 70% of the unskilled british workers are on at the moment. The workshy have been ousted with the introduction of universal credit so produce will still be harvested. That is just us. Now the French, Spanish and Italian farmers are much more volatile than the walked over british, do you think they will put up with constraints on what they can sell us? No they will be up in arms and things will rapidly change back to normal.
Sorry are you suggesting that universal credit will mean the workshy as you call them will harvest the crops?? The same universal credit that has seen people who are working homeless on the street and schools having to open over holidays to feed hungry kids? Are you suggesting the kids help them harvest the crops?
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So i live in a rural area with lots of farms and a couple of years back on the news programs did an experiment where it took 6 out of work english people who said they would try anything and gave them a trail picking veg. Day one only 4 turned up on time one turned up late by a few hours and the other never arrived. By the end of the week they did a signifiant less amount of work and at the end of the experiment the farmer only offered the job to one who turned it down as it was to hard. This was 6 random long term unemployed people. If you think they will pick the veg think again. One of the businesses here which grows a lot of veg has now bought land is europe and is relocating some of the growing abroad. I see whole swathes of land now being sold for houses.
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Now the French, Spanish and Italian farmers are much more volatile than the walked over british, do you think they will put up with constraints on what they can sell us? No they will be up in arms and things will rapidly change back to normal.
Not quite Ace. Spain does not just export fruit and veg to UK, in fact it is only 13 percent and falling. Rising are their exports to Germany, other EU countries and the Middle East. 'Up in arms' as you suggest or just remarketing their produce elsewhere. Anything that can be sold within the EU and does therefore not need paperwork is clearly preferable to sending to more difficult markets that require customs checks, tariffs, truck delays over paperwork. I am sure there will be a 'new normal' once things stabilise, but 'back to normal' will not happen outside of the Single Market.
And the discrepancy between how 'little' UK produces and how much needs to be imported does not mean that the two just cancel each other out. Far from it. Even during wartime, food supply ships ran huge risks being attacked by U-boats, because Dig for Victory could not make UK self sufficient in food.
The mantra of 'we will just drop all our tariffs and food will become much cheaper' is particularly dangerous, as it literally spells the death of UK agriculture and more external dependence and less food self sufficiency.
No doubt there will be a new normal eventually, in the meantime we are fortunate to have our growing spaces and can bridge a gap. :wave:
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like it or not we are self sufficient.
No we are not. We have never been self sufficient in modern times and we never will be. 30% of the food consumed in the UK is supplied by the EU at the moment. I am not suggesting that this will stop but it is likely that it will become more expensive - we wont starve but people go hungry now and this will get worse. The pond falling in value and tariffs are two of the main reasons that prices will or have risen. Galina's point above shows that demand for food is rising and increased demand leads to higher prices.
As I mentioned before this is not a one way street - we are entwined in the markets. We import machinery, fertilisers, fuel and other imputs to agriculture. If those prices rise then the costs of producing food rise too. Labour is another problem (not the political party!) that looks set to push food prices higher.
Food price inflation is real - it is already happening. What happens next depends on what sort of deal we get but one thing is clear. It will not be better than what we already have.
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A recent report on EU farm subsidies shows that British farmers who receive EU CAP subsidies are fewer in number than the French but get paid more. The loss of that funding is also going to have an effect on UK agriculture and what it can grow and how much it will cost when it gets to market.
The UK hasn't been self-sufficient since the Industrial Revolution and the drive to improve production after the 2nd World War has transformed the landscape - ripping out hedgerows to create monoculture wheat/potatoes.cabbages etc - as well as killing off masses of wild flora and fauna form loss of habitat and use of chemicals but it' still not enough to feed everyone and there is no longer an empire to exploit for cheap and plentiful food supplies.
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I work for a European-owned company that does a considerable amount or work with European collaborators, in a field that has benefitted enormously from the existence of the EU as it has been criminally underfunded by government for decades and, as it works on a contract basis, has not got big cash reserves.
So I'm planning which bit of the allotment the tentwill go on because if this debacle goes through I could be out of a job, a career, and a house. Picking veg? If I had to, but if you get cancer or some other such long-term condition, would you rather I was trying to find cures for it, or making sure you have lettuce?
Adrian
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I would not normally wish to (further) upset Peanuts but seeing as you have asked,
I would prefer, and expect, you to apply your skills and accumalated experience to further such research for a British company, to exploit the opportunities to market your results to benefit British and other free trading peoples and , furthermore, if the progress you bring is significant, to sell it widely within all world markets. Thereby creating prosperity and good life outcomes to all.
I believe you could produce lettuce, in sufficient quantities for your family, on weekends .
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All very well but can you name a British company employing British workers to find cures for British cancer?
Course not. It's all about international collaboration and the British governments of all hues have already demonstrated that they lack the will and the imagination to invest in research and development in just about anything. The loss of collective EU funding is going to have major repercussions. International companies will take their research to countries where such funding is available and/or staff and other investment costs from buildings to materials are cheaper - somewhere in Asia with a well educated work force.
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Bang on, Obelixx. I'm currently reading about, amongst other things, international trade in Tudor England and wondering just how far back you have to go before Britain was able to stand on its own. Based on the Orkney Vole and it's genetic similarity to voles from Belgium I'd say that some people are trying to take us back at least 5000 years.
Adrian
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Well, we know the Romans came to get their hands on minerals they needed and they only knew those were there because of existing trade links for things like Cornish tin which was needed to make bronze weapons amongst other things. They brought with them new ideas on building, heating, sanitation, roads and transport, all of which required investment in people and resources.
When they left, the British forgot how to make bricks, heat homes with CH, manage public baths and latrines, make roads..........
Dark Ages anyone?
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Do you really need to tell us whether you consider Brexit good or bad for us, do you think you impress with your point of view?
Enough is enough - I don't really need to know your opinion - in the same way that you don't really want to know mine. By now we've made up our own minds so it's pointless.
Sooo.... can we please just get back to gardening?
I know I can just not read the thread - but wonder why people think they have to keep going over and over the same points as if it is actually going to make a difference to what actually happens. Virtue signalling at it's best/worst :D
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We all have a right to express a point of view as long as we do it in reaonable, courteous language. You don't have to read it.
Unfortunately, Brexit won't just affect the rice and/or availability of certain fruit and veggies. I expect, if they don't get a good deal, it's going to have a knock-on effect on other essential gardening supplies such as tools, wood for sheds, aluminium for greenhouses, the tools we use every day and have to replace at some point.......... Seeds too?
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Plot 18, Dan has defined what can be talked about in the Shed as "Non allotment related general chit chat." Therefore, here is the place to talk about none gardening topics, if that is where the conversation goes. And yes, we may talk politics or indeed "impress" others with our knowledge outside gardening (your words!). The moderator here is Dan and he has not stepped in as it has been mostly done respectfully and courteously.
Whether the contributions answer the original question is another matter, but that is the old problem of thread drift and most of us are guilty of that from time to time.
:wave:
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Brexit does have many implications which we cannot forsee both for ourselves and other people. Some people therefore have very strongly held views, and others equally strong ones but different. Therefore the potential for discord is greater than most of the subjects discussed of a non gardening nature.
So please all take care of each other and respect each others rights to hold different views. The original poster was asking ""Any one growing differently because of Brexit" so I respectfully suggest that the closer we stay to the original topic the more we will get out of the thread.
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I guess everyone trying to be closer to topic, underlying thoughts and reasons justify what can be grown in preference. for me I try to grow all these every year and see disasters for several reasons. now the various points highlighted herewith cautioning me to grow them with extra care and get decent crop for those. thank you all.
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Personally i am trying to grow more garlic, onions, beans and peas (not had much sucess). Will also consider growing more potatoes as well as getting in some additonal fruit plants in Feb. I will be looking at more winter crops for next year as well.
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Oddly, the range of winter brassicas here is very limited in supermarkets but there's a farmers' market where I can get things like kale and not just red, white, Savoy and pointy cabbage.
No cavolo nero anywhere, no spring greens nor purple sprouting and very little pak choi and its permutations. I plan on growing those for our consumption.
As I said much earlier in this thread, allotmenteers and veg growers are fortunate in being able to grow what they especially like and/or what is already expensive or hard to find in the shops or is better eaten fresh from the ground and with the security of knowing what has and hasn't gone in to growing it.