Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => The Basics => Topic started by: tim on March 09, 2004, 18:09:22
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Just looked up a reference, & it says just that.
So, experts, I've overdone it?? Got carried away. You'll have to guess from a poor photo. Oh, the one on the right? Granddaughter dug the trench!! = Tim
(http://home.hpphoto.com/servlet/LinkPhoto?GUID=31461d91-30a1-49dd-5aca-480b9b436ec2&size=lg)
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Ok Tim, I give up ???what is the low ridge for????
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Let's wait for the forum of 5 to comment. To give early frost protection? No, then it wouldn't apply later. But whatever, I believe that one of the 5 said, some time ago, that too much is bad? = Tim
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Leeks?
In the low part?
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Tim, when I gardened on clay soil I used to sow carrots on a low ridge, allegedly to help drainage in sticky soil, and also to reduce slug attack - used to dust with soot or lime for the latter reason as well.
P.S. Would she like a part time job?
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OH, so THAT'S what he's on about!! Sorry - didn't notice that a whole sentence had disappeared!! No wonder folk are looking at me strangely.
The missing bit was - "so when I planted my early potatoes yesterday, I thought I'd go by the book". Hence both trench & ridge. Does that help the sense??
My question remains. Thanks for the sympathetic ideas so far. = Tim
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But I always plant my potatoes that way tim
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Okay, me a little dim, you dug a trench and piled the earth up to one side, then planted your spuds in the bottom of the trench and you will gradually fill the trench as the spuds grow with the mud that is mounded to the side.....or are your spuds under the mound?? :-\
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EJ, I always plant in the bottom of the trench on the basis that the ridge will provide plenty of soil (not mud, please) for earthing up with later, and at the same time ensures that most of the tuber producing runners are at a reasonable depth below surrounding soil level anyway.
But then, I haven`t got a copy of tim`s book, and maybe he plants in the ridge so that (at 6ft 4ins tall) he won`t have to bend so far.
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Hahaha EJ, as soon as I read your posting I just knew that 'mud' thing would be back to haunt you. It didn't take long either. So 'mud' is a definite no-no hahahaha.
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I have pulled all the soil back over the pots - thus making a high ridge - which I believe is incorrect in someones eyes - can't remember who??
As to the distance between me and the bottom of the trench, Hugh, had a bright idea today - get one of those 'reach & grab' tools. At the moment, I have to do it on all fours!! = Tim
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:-[ I made a similar error once when chatting on a bike site and said the dreaded word - 'drive'. ooooo How quickly was Emma put in her place, 'we say ride' I was told. :-[ Mud, soil, compost, earth, it's all the same to me, it is what my kids drag in all over my lounge carpet when they have been playing in the garden, and what makes all my fruit, veggies and flowers feel at home in the garden and the lottie. :-\
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tim, the theory I work on is that if I bury the potatoes deeply to start with the stems will run up to the surface without forming leaf axils. If I don`t put much cover on initially, then as soon as the lower leaves form I can earth up over them, and (rightly or wrongly) I think the axil buds will then send out runners (I forget the correct name) on which tubers will form. Basically I`m trying to earth up as many leaf axils as possible with the soil available, and by starting with the seed cover well below ground level in the trench I don`t have to make such deep furrows between the rows to find the soil for earthing up.
I`ll bet John will now come along and shoot me down on theory, but it works for me.
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Rhizomes, Hugh, rhizomes, a la couch grass.
Regarding your 'theory'? No shooting from me, verifiable science.
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Verified, not verifiable!
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John, I don`t think we ought to tell tim - not after he`s gone to all the trouble of making. that lovely ridge. Wish I could make all my trenches that straight, though. Come to that, I wish I could train my granddaughters to dig trenches at all.
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All I can day is s-d it!! After all that work, I've got to go & flatten them down a bit. Have to get it done before the rain comes tomorrow.
But thanks, guys! And maybe it's served as a lesson to others? = Tim
PS The wiggly one is 'hers' - she forgot to use the line I gave her, and went off about a foot or so at the end. We had to do a bit of 'tidying up'!
And PPS - why earth up, or 'mould' ,at all at this stage?
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Before I discovered the no dig technique for growing potatoes i always grew my potatoes using this ridge and trench method, by digging a trech the ridge created provided plenty of soil for earthing up. I often ended up with the potatoes growing in a ridge with a trench in between the rows from all the earting up (the plants grew so well). The only thing was in hindsight i am not convinced on how effective it was, the tubers always formed at a particular level with few in the upper levels of the earthed up soil.
As you may know i now use a no dig method which generaly produces a good crop. And there is less chance of spearing/slicing throght a tuber as you are digging them up!
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tim, there is absolutely no point whatever in earthing or `moulding` up at this stage. The whole purpose of covering lightly initially is to encourage the formation of short jointed stems with plenty of lower leaves which can then be covered as they form - it is from the axils of these leaf/stem joints that some of the tuber forming rhyzomes (for which nomenclature I am obliged to John) are produced. If you cover the seed deeply you will mainly get long jointless shoots, the rhyzome forming leaf/stem axils will still not appear until the shoot breaks surface and either you will get a reduced crop or the necessary earthing up to cover them which follows can result in something reminiscent of early saxon defensive earthworks.
The other point is that too high`ridging`, particularly if the seeds are themselves planted in the ridges, results in too much drainage. Potatoes need large quantities of soil moisture once tuberisation starts, and draining this moisture away from high ridges into adjoining deep trenches frustrates this.
I am not quite sure what point Richard is trying to make, since he doesn`t disclose precisely what his current method is, but he must obviously be using some method of excluding light from his newly forming tubers or they would turn green. If he is using black polythene, then he will simply lose the benefits of increased rhyzome formation from covered leaf/stem axils, and this method, while perfectly staisfactory for early potatoes simply results in lower cropping and greatly increased risk of slug damage, particularly with maincrops. If on the other hand his method is to keep covering the newly forming tubers with more compost or straw, then he is, in effect, earthing up - although again without the benefits of increased rhyzome formation.
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Phew, so what I was planning to do is the right thing to do....will wonders never cease! Have dug 2 trenches, but have a feeling I am going to need another 2, oh well, the ground is so lovely and workable it didn't take me toooooo long. Hugh, by the way, how deep would you make your trench, a spade deep?? ::)
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Depends on the length of your spade, EJ. I set mine at about 9 inches below normal surface level, with about 2 inches of soil covering, which is steadily increased as soon as leaves start to form. But you MUST use fleece (double) with this method or the growing tops will get frosted.
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Groovy, thanks Hugh.
Shopping reminder, buy fleece!
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I have a tool mentioned elsewhere on here, it's like a short headed fork but the tangs are at a right angle to the shaft. I walk along scooping the soil out towards me. My soil is heavy so this method breaks it up and leaves it in a state ready for earthing up. I normally go down about a spade depth. I cover the newly planted tubers with a half trench depth and earth up to completely cover any folige as it shows. Works for me.
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My preparation is to level the bed to a good tilth having previosly manured it the previous autumn.
Using a 'bulb planter I plant my seed potatoe, at required spacings.
When the haulms are about 6"(150mm) high I earth up with a 'back hoe''
I find I get all the 'taters' that I need, in fact I still have a bag and a half in store.
(http://www.honleyvillage.co.uk/images/Community/GardenClub/bYkYhw.gif)
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OK - we start learning all over? This isn't gardening - it's chemistry.
I normally put mine in a 5" trench and cover to ground level, moulding as the leaves emerge, mainly to protect from frost on the earlies.
You go to 9", and then put 2" of soil on the seed, slowly building up to ground level?? And then a ridge?
Vain hope that mesh would give some frost protection - double checked with the suppliers and, of course, NO!
Planters - tried the Marshalls' one but couldn't get on with it. = Tim
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You`ve got it in one, tim. I would add that where I`ve got compost to spare I use it to cover the seed. For some reason most people seem to put the compost under the seed, but if you`ve unearthed a young `volunteer` and examined it you`ll have noticed that the roots actually grow out from the `collar` where shoot joins potato, and common sense dictates that this is the level where the compost will do most good. Then I simply keep on backfilling at regular intervals, but making sure that the growing tip is not covered to allow the leaf joint axil buds to keep forming.
However, with only a 2 inch initial cover, and the growing tip constantly exposed double Fleece is absolutely essential. I keep this pulled reasonably taut between the ridges on either side of the potato trench, leaving an insulated air space beneath and I`ve never had a frosted shoot yet with this method.
Fine mesh suspended above a crop (but not touching) can provide some protection against a light frost - the tiny drops of precipitation which freeze often have sufficient surface tension to become trapped in the mesh instead of falling through, but the actual insulation factor is negligible, and I would regard mesh protection as being somewhat dicey for early potatoes.
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TG, and for those with limited space, the point about Hugh's advice is that you can get the same yield of potatoes from a smaller area. The more rhizomes (botanically- a modified underground stem) that are produced the greater the yield per plant. The rhizomes are produced at the leaf axis, so the more buried leaf axis produced the greater the rhizomes.
As this is approaching introducing economics into home gardening again, and with the gentle ribbing I got about it recently, I will now shut up.
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Hugh, I use the 'black polythene method' you mentioned (or rather landscape fabric as this lets rain/moisture through). I plant the seed about 6" deep through holes cut in the fabric. I suspect from what you and john have been saying that this is too deep for leaf axils to form, and yes i still have to dig them out (not then strictly 'no dig' before you say anything).
However I switched from growing them in an open plot to raised beds (retained by wood) 5 years ago, and have found earthing up in such a system difficult to manage properly . I cannot provide enough compost or straw to employ the other no dig method you mentioned, so while potential crop is reduced, the method i use seems to be the oly one that works. Unless you can suggest an alternative to those already given?
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Not quite, Richard. Your method, which actually doesn't sound too different from TG's, except you use plastic, means fewer leaf axils (oops, I stand corrected) are formed underground as the plants will be stretching to get to the light (etiolation, as in overheated tomato seedlings) rather than inducing normal cell differentation.
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I also use raised beds. I presume that Richard`s problem is in retaining the soil ridges on the beds once he has earthed up. I keep a few spare boards which are used as a temporary measure to increase the height of the bed edges of the potato beds and allow earthing up without problems.
Completely apropos of nothing at all, it is perfectly possible, if one is careful, to lift an early potato plant, remove the larger tubers and replant for a further crop. I have done this many times to get a very early plateful. There is one recorded instance of a Scottish clergyman (who else) who lifted the same plant 6 times in succession, getting a further crop each time and the total tally was very respectable indeed