Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => The Basics => Topic started by: lezelle on March 21, 2021, 14:02:30
-
Hi Ya, Saw this for sale in a shop and wondered if it is environment friendly. Will it harm wildlife. I used to use glysophate based but packed it in when I found out how bad it was. I am trying to find out the contents of this product but wondered if any one has used it or indeed seen it. Be interested in your thoughts
-
No picture, or details.
-
If it's the one I saw in Tesco this week, the active ingredient is acetic acid, so I presumed it was an expensive way of buying vinegar.
-
Yes, I've spotted that - first seen as "Glyphosate-free Roundup" - WTF? I assume it's like the old treatment for broad-leaved weeds of spraying with sulphuric acid and burning off the foliage. One day I'll remember to take my reading specs to the garden centre and check the formulation, I suspect it's rather higher concentration than vinegar - if not it's a rip-off!
-
Just use white vinegar, it works very well.
-
If the active ingredients are acetic acid or pelagonic acid take care as they can easily cause skin and eye damage. If used to excess they can harm the soil, and for many perennial weeds the top growth will die and then just regrow.
Of course, the absolute best, cheapest and most effective herbicide for annual weeds is called a hoe.
-
Hi Ya, been reading up and white vinegar gets listed a lot. I see you say use white vinegar Hippydave and wonder if you use it on your veg beds? does it stay long or can your plant a couple of days later? do you use a certain recipe you have found to work well? Interested to hear. The weeds will take of as I am having to self isolate for 10 days due being in contact with someone who tested positive for corona. another pain in the a---. Keep ell and safe all
-
The problem with any weedkiller or psteicide is that they are not discriminatory and will affect beneficial soil organisms too, especially the ones you can't see but which are essential to soil health.
I'd go with hoeing and then No Dig after first getting OH to dig out things with deep tap roots.
This list of weed killers and their contents may be useful if you really want to spray - https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/pdfs/weedkiller-for-home-gardeners.pdf
-
I might use vinegar for weeds on a path or patio but I'd be much less willing to spray it around the veg garden - it is just an acid. You can get horticultural vinegar which is strong enough to cause severe eye damage and is used as a defoliant.
My paradise in Portugal is somewhat marred by field bindweed, couch grass and some odd local invasive tough grass\weed. I've been digging it out covering it up and hoeing but I have reverted to glysophate. The previous owners just rotovated all the time so all the weeds are spread everywhere...
Muito trabalho!
-
We have field bindweed too Barriedale Nick. Glyphosate didn't fix it.
Our farmer neighbour gave us a huge sheet of plastic to cover up bare earth in our potager while we worked in another part of it. 2 years later guess what's alive and well - tho pale yellow - and running along the surface of the soil. Bindweed.
In existing beds I do fork things over before improving the soil and planting anything. New beds we make this spring are getting the cardboard and mulch treatment.
-
Hi Ya, Well I think I will follow my normal way and keep away from weed killers. I have started, due to disability, a partial no dig system. I had some areas covered initially with black plastic and have covered under the fruit trees etc with cardboard. I am surprised how quickly the cardboard breaks down. I have been after the bind weed for years and believe I am starting to get it down but you have to be on it all the time. Thanks for the reply's everyone. Its a weeding I will go. I do have the loan of a flame gun so may use that as well. Bind weed is not such a problem as the rest of the annual weeds. Good luck all
-
Funnily enough, I found that field bindweed responded very well (ie it sulked, and struggled to take over in anything like its usual way) to hoeing - I got a dutch hoe last year, plus bugger-all else to do, and the difference it made to the ease of hoeing was astonishing. So this year it'll mostly be the dutch hoe. Mind you, I don't know how big your new baby is, Nick.
Unfortunately I lost most of a summer on the plot in 2017 when my father died and that's when the hedge bindweed that had been doing its best to encroach from a derelict plot next door got stuck in. Thankfully we have a more pragmatic chairman than the previous all-chemicals-are-evil-all scientists-are-evil* one, and I am using super-strength Roundup gel every time it shows its head (on that and nothing else) - digging out the big bits is fine, but we all know how small a bit will regenerate.... It seemed to be in retreat by late summer last year, and hopefully will remain so. The stuff is a ****ing menace on my plot!
Is glyphosate evil? Frankly I don't know, but I can tell you that there's some really bad science been published by its opponents, which doesn't give me much confidence in their arguments. Nothing is risk-free (eg see this for details of acetic acid: http://science.cleapss.org.uk/resource/SSS023-Ethanoic-acetic-acid.pdf, it will certainly make worms very unhappy indeed), I use the smallest amount that works I can, on as few weeds as possible.
*As a scientist, I was particularly peeved by this. Especially as our water comes from the Thames, so we get the benefit of everything put on every field upstream of us!
-
Glyphosate has been found in water courses all over Europe and I do wonder about how that is affecting the water we drink and the wildlife, not to mention cattle, sheep, pigs, fish and other aquatic creatures who drink from or live in those waters.
I also think Monsanto is a deeply flawed amoral company run purely for profits and with little regard to the environment and especially the communities who grow and use its seeds and chemicals.
Bindweed here is sneaky. It has very pretty pink tinged flowers which are fine in the wilder grass and wildflower areas of our plot but a pain in the veg garden and other beds. It has the thick, white easily identifiable roots near the surface but they are brittle so break easily when forking or planting or hoeing. The sneaky bit is the deeper roots which are brown and coiled like springs and seem to go down to China. Very hard to spot and clear and each one would need a gallon of glyphosate to get right down to the last cell of the roots.
We're sticking with hoeing and cardboard and mulching.
-
Is glyphosate evil? Frankly I don't know, but I can tell you that there's some really bad science been published by its opponents, which doesn't give me much confidence in their arguments. Nothing is risk-free (eg see this for details of acetic acid: http://science.cleapss.org.uk/resource/SSS023-Ethanoic-acetic-acid.pdf, it will certainly make worms very unhappy indeed), I use the smallest amount that works I can, on as few weeds as possible.
This coincides with my own thinking. The empirical evidence is that glyphosate is low toxicity for animals birds and fish but worse for amphibians, and depending on soil conditions degrades sometimes quickly sometimes slowly.
But the world's agro businesses take this as justification to spread literally millions of tons of the stuff every year, often not even as a herbicide but a coupled to the use of resistant genetically modified crops, making profits from both the seed and the herbicide.
The contrast between your cautious approach (my bolding above) and their total lack of constraint could hardly be greater.
-
The commercial practice of using weedkiller, well glyphosate, to ripen wheat crops is what gets my goat. It is used to kill the plant and desiccate the crops a week or two prior to harvest..
I am happy to use it in moderation on stubborn weeds but this seems a bit much.
-
Indeed, Nick. I think that says it all. There is a huge difference between dabbing a bit of gel on something tough and throwing it around like it's going out of fashion. Being out in the sun and living longer are almost certainly the biggest risk factors for most of us, certainly for cancers.
-
Thanks all, an informative thread which confirms my policy of using glyphosate very occasionally, sparingly and carefully on bindweed and the like which I've not been able to deal with by digging or mulching.
-
If and when I have to use a herbicide I tend to use Sodium Chlorate as it gives me more control over its application.
If I have a clump of pernicious weeds I want to get rid of! I place a pinch of the stuff into the crown of the offending plant/s
At least this method does not create the potential for 'overspray' as is possible from using a liquid herbicide.
However! It is an indiscriminate herbicide (kills every thing it touches) but at least it is systemic so treating individual plant is generally quite safe!
Sadly it is a banned substance meaning the public may have a problem getting some.
I got a bag about 25 years ago, and I still have around 1⁄2Kg left.
-
Good grief, how big was the bag?
Don't get it too hot, either - above 300C it decomposes into water and sodium chloride, and we all know how bad they are for us!
-
As I recall it was around 10kg
-
Watch out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploding_trousers
-
My word.
It's like being back in the school chemistry lab! Lesson 7: The effects of strong oxidising agents.
That reminds me. I may still have the remains of 500 g of ammonium sulphamate that I bought long since kicking about somewhere Very effective herbicide, degrades in a reasonable time and the end product is standard ammonium sulphate, the fertilizer.
Anyone still using Bordeaux mixture? Now that is a rather nasty throwback to times gone by!
-
Anyone still using Bordeaux mixture? Now that is a rather nasty throwback to times gone by!
Speaking of times gone by; I gang remember the days when the staple Gardeners aides were; DDT, Paraquat, and Nicotine.
I can remember foraging in the gutters for cigarette ends which were immersed in a bucket of water and the resultant fluid was used as an insecticide.
But then like now most people new the dangers of these products and handled them accordingly whereas the gungho types tended to overdo it thus giving these a worse name than they really deserved.. Then like always it was these few that caused the bad press.
-
Anyone still using Bordeaux mixture? Now that is a rather nasty throwback to times gone by!
I think I still have some from a few years back when I bulk ordered for the guys down the plot.
Stuff works though.
-
Anyone still using Bordeaux mixture? Now that is a rather nasty throwback to times gone by!
I think I still have some from a few years back when I bulk ordered for the guys down the plot.
Stuff works though.
It's game over, man!
Time to take off and nuke em from space. It's the only way to be sure.
-
Anyone still using Bordeaux mixture? Now that is a rather nasty throwback to times gone by!
I couldn't disagree more - it is a very simple poison and utterly predictable in its original form of colloidal copper made from copper sulphate and slaked lime solutions mixed as needed and used immediately - though that's before they messed with it to make it more "convenient" ie. easier to sell at a higher price (but with different ingredients that can be used as a powder in water).
It has been used safely since 1840 - unlike the modern chemicals that are too complicated to ever be fully tested for the unpredictable and insidious effects that always appear - despite following the instructions, but only 40 or 50 years later.
Actually calling it a poison is moot - copper is an essential element in mammalian metabolism - the easiest copper sulphate to find is sold as a food additive for livestock.
It is a trace element but one of the most important 4 - so you'd have to be very determined to harm yourself with the mix** - it is incredibly bitter. However if you see that blue colour on your tomatoes then just polish it off on your sleeve - if you can't taste what's left it can't harm you. If you managed to make yourself sick then you really deserved that Darwin award.
**Reminds me of the cartoon of an arm emerging from a meat grinder, still holding the handle - labelled as "the world's most determined suicide".
Humans' broad diet generally provides enough (about 1 or 2mg a day on average), but livestock (on a monotonous diet) need supplements.
Massive use can harm earthworms, but that's why they should invert the normal practice - if they ban it, the ban should be for farmers NOT hobbyists. While they are at it they could ban the ready made powder for novices to dilute, not the use of the real thing.
On a personal note - I don't understand why people spray their potatoes for blight - you simply need to dig them up as soon as they are hit, use the crop as earlies and buy maincrop ones as you need them - leaving lots of space for properly tasty stuff that is too expensive (or often impossible) to buy from the shops.
Cheers.
PS. all the Dithiocarbamates and anything else with a name containing "thi" (mancozeb=dithane and vice versa) are dodgy and overdue for banning - but what you really notice is that they all make your tomatoes taste of rotting cabbage!
-
Vinlander, always good to read your contributions. They are well argued and logical which I admire.
I entirely agree with your comments about the use of many modern agricultural chemicals. Many are not only extremely harmful in themselves but often contain traces of even more damaging substances. Remember the use of agent orange in the Vietnam war, that was not only nasty in itself but also carried traces of dioxin? Devastating effects that lasted for years. The number of global deaths caused by paraquat and diquat both accidentally and by suicide over the years is huge.
You correctly point out that copper is an essential part of human nutrition but in common with many other things that we need to stay healthy excess intake is definitely harmful. You could have added that it is also essential in the soil as plants with copper deficiency will not thrive, but again only at low levels and too much will make soil toxic.
Your comments about livestock doesn't tell the whole story. Some livestock like pigs tolerate copper extremely well and piglets seem to really thrive with a little bit of supplementary copper in their diet. Not so for sheep, and ruminants generally as they as they do not tolerate copper at all well, and a copper rich diet is deadly for many breeds of sheep. Sheep farmers are strongly advised to never feed sheep on pasture, silage or root crops that have been grown on land treated with pig manure. Some breeds of dog are also very sensitive.
I also disagree with the idea that simple chemicals may be short term poisons but tend not carry long term health threats. Counter examples that spring to mind are low levels of arsenic in drinking water over time produces effects like kidney damage and cancers, as does Radon gas (an element not even a compound).
I will happily concede that acute poisoning is unlikely with correct usage but Bordeaux mix is known to cause harm to worms at sublethal concentrations and it is also a molluscide (which may be an added benefit) but is very harmful to fish even at quite low concentrations.
So overall you make a very convincing case that Bordeaux mixture used with care and in limited amounts is pretty safe, and certainly not as bad as many modern agricultural chemicals, I am simply not convinced that Bordeaux mix is quite as benign as you suggest.
Good discussion though!