Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => The Basics => Topic started by: Hugh_Jones on February 18, 2004, 02:07:48
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Yesterday, as I was dragging the long pronged cultivator through last year`s maincrop potato row I unearthed (as usual) several small potatoes that had somehow escaped during lifting. They all had strong shoots, several inches in length, as well as plenty of roots, and the question occurred to me – just when does a potato tuber suddenly feel the urge to sprout and grow? These had clearly been growing for several weeks and were well on the way to becoming strong plants. In comparison, the new seed which I painstakingly set out in egg boxes on the spare bedroom window ledge a month or so ago, and have to spray occasionally to keep them plump, merely have short green shoots ½ inch or so in length, and even when planted in early March will still take two or three weeks to reach the stage of development which the `volunteers` have already reached now.
Obviously, when artificial climate control was not generally available – or at least not to the farmer or the ordinary gardener, the planting date had to allow for the danger of frost damage to the stems and foliage, and the rules were framed accordingly, but in these days of milder winters and fleece or cloche protection do the time-honoured recommendations as to planting dates still hold good?
We know, of course, that early and second early potatoes form their tubers as soon as the plants have reached a certain stage in their growth, and clearly if they are well rooted in mid February they will reach that stage much earlier than if they are not planted – however well chitted – until March. We also know that the maincrop potatoes will not start to form tubers until after midsummer`s day, and the size of crop will depend on the amount of growth made before that date, so again clearly the crop will be bigger if the plants are well rooted in February than if they are not planted until March.
In fact, should we not consider the possibility of planting – under cloche or double fleece protection, in February, or even January? It would be interesting to hear your views, but in the meantime I think I`m going to risk planting a few earlies under fleece tomorrow.
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I'm sure you've got a point there. We. too, have to put some out tomorrow, because they're developing aerial roots. I just find fleece a bit of a bore at times.
Spraying the seed? You learn every day! But mine are 2 floors up, and that takes a lot of persuasion! = Tim
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Is spraying to keep them hydrated? I had noticed my 1st earlies had started to wrinkle up a bit whilst chitting.
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I tto feel that in many areas the old 'rules' about planting certain crops are far too cautious, and that in mild districts planting may be done at least a month earlier than the usual reccomendations.
My garden is very mild even for the area (southwest england) and I am currently experimenting with various things to see jst how mild it truly is. On this note i am planning on starting many crops this year as soon as possible (within reason) rather than wait for the 'set time'. I have recent ly purchased my seed potatoes and when I feel they are adequately chitted they will be planted out, albeit with some protection just in case.
I have recent lt seen in a reputable gardening magazine, advice suggesting tomatoes for indoor growing may be started around now. This i also consider worth trying. I usualy start all tomatoes off towards the end of march/ early april. This year i think I will try begining of march instead. I have never had problems getting tomatoes to germinate, so this is not something that conerns me greatly about sowing so early.
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I think a lot has to do with 'temperature'
I think generally when we talk of 'temperature' we are thinking in human terms.
When you hear the scientists talking of 'global warming' they are only talking on the effect of a one or two degree difference, and what it is going to do.
So in reality the ground temperature where these tubers are sprouting, may be relatively warm in plant terms, particulary if they are in ground that was manured the previous year, and this is still decomposing thus generating heat
I use a soil thermometer a lot during the winter months and quite often I register temperatures that are 4-5 degrees warmer in the pot, than the surrounding air.
One has only to break up a dried up 'rootball' to see that it consists of loads of fibres not unlike a 'fibre filled' duvet, so is it any wonder that it is a few degrees warmer in there.
Hope I haven't bored you too much with my theory.
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Not at all. I think you have said in the past that soil can act as a good insulator against cold.
Down here we rarely get a deep penetrating frost. At worst a few centimetres get frozen in winter. This winter even less. Digging down a few inches in winter has shown the soil to be unaffected by cold conditions above. I have in fact had the last of my late crop of potatoes in the ground all winter (only recently lifted) which came to no harm at all because of the depth they were in the soil. I only lifted them because i was afraid of them sprouting in situ (as Hugh's did).
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Very interesting Gardener. I am always far to keen to get things growing and to be honest, the only thing I always sow to early to germinate is carrots. I get carried away, get them in too early with no protection, and I guess they just rot away in the cold wet ground. I guess bigger things which would take longer to rot or are to big to be washed away would stand more of a chance. Richard, my toms are up and at 'em already. I always sow these early, and a certain rufty tufty northern chap I know has his greenhouse full of seedlings already! ;)
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You lucky lot, but then again we gardeners have to live with what nature throws at us don't we......masochists the lot of us, don't you think? ;D
I have had to consider such things as 'temperatures'a lot, considering I garden at over 900 ft above sea level on the eastern side of the Pennines and I am exposed to the easterly Siberian winds, that can blow in from time to time.
There is a saying up here that some of you in the south might not have heard, and that is 'you are a coat warmer than us', and it shows when I read of you doing this and that and I am still only dreaming of it, but then again thats gardening.
One for aka Dan; How about a geographical location under our forum name, might help when we all talk of this and that, particularly if 'geographical location' has an affect on our gardening methods.
Sorry if this is the wrong place to mention this , but it just came to mind when relating the top section of this posting.
I don't know if anyone has looked into the 'Zones' area of my website where I have tried to tackle 'the location' thing.
If you haven't your points of view would be most welcome (warts and all)
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ladys and gents
i get the jist of the planting times etc but please explain the word "chitting"
no answers on a post card and keep it clean lol
carl
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For Carl;
Lay your seed potatoes out like this or in a similar fashion to sprout/ or chit
(http://pic8.picturetrail.com:80/VOL230/588530/2732429/45915876.jpg)
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Gardener, an excellent picture, but I do hope that it wasn`t taken very recently. As to the bed in question, no, it isn`t in a warm spot, and no, it was not manured last year to keep it warm. However, the `volunteers` were buried quite deeply under the untidy mounds I always leave when I`m harvesting potatoes, and it may well have been a degree or so warmer that deep.
Ross, yes the spraying is to prevent what you yourself have noticed. The production of strong sprouts can greatly reduce the moisture content of the tubers, particularly if they are in a window exposed to strong sunshine. An occasional fine mist spray helps to keep the tubers firm and plump. I`m quite sure that Tim is fully aware of this, but he just likes to give me the opportunity to expound.
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- wasn't !! - never thought of it. = Tim
PS - And just to debunk the owt - I have never 'stood them up'. 'Life's too short to stuff a mushroom'. Just chuck 'em in and they'll do their thing. With one caveat - if you use trays like these, watch out for the shoots pushing out through the holes, and getting stuck! Left - Red Duke of York. Right - Anya, starting aerial roots.
(http://www.hpphoto.com/servlet/LinkPhoto?GUID=3a6a4104-762d-4bce-3628-10e674d370c9&size=lg)
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Now that`s more like it!
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Tim I use similar trays for my spuds, to avoid the entrapment problem, I normally put a layer of newspaper on the bottom!
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Hee hee I only have a total of 22 tubers chitting they would be lost in a big tray like that!
Ten x
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Tenuse, with the sort of numbers you mention the best way is to save up all your egg boxes like I do. They`re just the right size to fit on a window ledge, and at 6 spuds to the box I can chit 100 or more spuds on one window ledge - and they don`t fall over
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Yes this is what I have done, and if you leave the flappy part on the egg box you can use it to write the variety on!
Maybe next year I will "graduate" to 100s of spuds but I only have 3 windowsills in the house...!
Ten x
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ooo ooo me too, I wanna show of my chitting tatties.
(http://www.hpphoto.com/servlet/LinkPhoto?GUID=24f8166c-2d6f-5319-7e30-33836baa3e87&size=)(http://www.hpphoto.com/servlet/LinkPhoto?GUID=37bb4cb5-11fd-40fe-30f9-753c44116297&size=)
I don't know if you can see, but my Pentlands are all different sizes, and covered in very small, but lots of chits, where as the spuds next to them, Sharpes Express, are very uniform and only have 1 big chit.
(http://www.hpphoto.com/servlet/LinkPhoto?GUID=2dc14bad-54c5-4585-1be1-1981509a6d62&size=)(http://www.hpphoto.com/servlet/LinkPhoto?GUID=21513fae-4477-7189-7887-298278ec57d2&size=)
aaaahhhhh, look at my babies! ;D
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That`s mainly because of the varieties, EJ. Sharpes Express usually produces beautifully shaped potatoes of uniform size. Other varieties which do that include, Nadine, Celine, Sante etc. On the other hand Desiree frequently produces the lumpiest, craggiest, most uneven potatoes imaginable, but then we don`t grow them for their looks.
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Oh I wish i could see Tims Photo of his spuds. Just to know what the heck he is on about :-/.
I grow only a small quantity myself (30 seed tubers in all) so use cell trays oy ordinary seed trays to chit mine on.
Id certainly agree about the desiree tubers. Took me twice as long in the garden centre to pick out the best ones than it did the foremost I got at the same time.
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You have to remember, Hugh, that plants, even those that are daylength neutral, do need light to be at a sufficent level of intensity to invoke certain attributes of maturity. This is why lettuce is the typical overwintered crop in greenhouses as it can grow at much lower light intensites than, for instance, tomatoes or peppers. A planting of potatoes as early as January in the UK, especially under protection and its resultant shading, may not result in appreciably earlier cropping.
What you propose can be done though- within the next two weeks the first 'new' potatoes from Californias' Imperial Valley will be available over here. I imagine that Egyptian potatoes will be available in the UK soon too (assuming the crop still exists)? While the differences between California, Egypt, UK and Vermont, temperature wise, in January are very obvoious to everyone light levels also have to be considered when such early production is proposed.
While everyone else here is contemplating their chitted potatoes I have just heard someone mention cleaning out the sugaring house- that is our first indication of spring! The sap will be rising soon here as our weather finally warms up.
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John, I fully appreciate your point about those plants which are daylength neutral, but I have yet to find any definitive information as to at which point in the calendar the requisite level of light intensity is reached - presumably because this would depend to no small extent on the prevailing weather conditions during spring; the light intensity could well be considerably higher in a dry bright spell in late March/early April than in a dull wet spell in late April/early May. I am not anticipating considerably earlier cropping, but to the `fun` gardener even an advancement of 2 weeks in the first new potatoes is a matter of some importance.
However, to develop the argument, surely if one can reasonably start ones potatoes earlier, then one of the following two alternatives should result:-
1. If the levels of light intensity in the spring are sufficient at an earlier time to invoke the attributes of maturity, then the crop will be earlier - at least to some extent, or
2. If the levels of light intensity are not sufficient at that time, the plant will simply continue to grow until the necessary levels of intensity are reached, and in due course the plant , being larger, will produce a greater yield - akin to the point I made regarding those plants which are not daylength neutral
Either of these alternatives would be quite acceptable to the average amateur grower.
And yes, Egyptian potatoes are now on sale here.
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Can I just ask a rather daft question ??? Who tells maincrop spuds that it is midsummers day and okay to start making babies? :-/
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They are daylength sensitive, EJ. As soon as midsummer`s day has passed the extremely clever potato, without benefit of either pocket diary or watch, says to itself "Ey thee up, lass, t`neets are drawin` in - better start mekkin` some babbies", and promptly gets on with the job
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Hugh's potato is actually a home counties, polo-playing type - who has been reading to much DH Lawrence.
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No, Ceri. I can vouch for the fact that they were born and bred in Oswaldtwistle, which, for most southerners, is somewhere between Watford and the Scottish Border.
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;D nutters! Actually, sounds sowf london to me! hehehe.
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hugh,
reg, who had my plot for years before me says he always had his first tatties in by the end of feb. so, i am going to do so and all. The soil is lovely, friable and loamy but never gets claggy or overdry (we are on the site of an old pig farm) so i have my patch ready. I guess temperature is affected by types of soil - i used to have clay and it was impossible to plant anything till the end of march. Like you, i have also come across last years potatoes which look fine and healthy to me. So, why not.
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I was simply thinking about the provenance of potatoes, Hugh, when I mentioned the possibility of the light possibly being too low to provoke (I've read too much Darwin to believe they are invoked, Hugh!) tuber formation.
I remember reading an article about early potato production in the most favoured parts of the British Isles (Cornwall and Pembrokeshire) in The Grower magazine in the '70's where it was mentioned that they were indeed planted in February. I do wonder if January isn't just too early. Given the economic gain of being first on the market commercial growers would also do whatever is possible to advance their crop two weeks too!
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All nice ideas folks,but you are forgetting the unpredictability of our climate.
Who would have thought I'd be getting bad frosts at the end of february, - in the mild southwest?
I was just getting confident that winter was over and started making plans for early plantings/sowings then BANG along comes a cold spell like this, to make one think twice.
At present I am 'holding fire' on seed sowing etc until the weather warms up a little. It may be nearly march but it feels like january at the moment!!!
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It all depends on what you call a bad frost. In fact the actual night temperature here (in the north midlands) was only a little below freezing - but a bit of white on the ground and everybody panics. 30-40 years ago such temperatures were quite common here well into March.
Last week I laid out some fleece over the few potatoes I planted, and I checked it this morning. Although the soil all around it had a definite crust, the soil under the fleece showed no signs of frost, and I`m quite confident that the potatoes I have under it will emerge unscathed.
John, I accept your correction on semantics - it was careless of me, but then I`ve always preferred invocation to provocation - it goes with my gentle nature. However, the fact remains, and I think almost everyone on these boards who is old enough to remember will agree, that spring does come to this island of ours somewhat earlier now than it did 35 years ago - the plants start to grow earlier, the migrant birds arrive earlier, and the native birds nest earlier, and clearly the `volunteer`potatoes I raked out had thought it was time to get going. Maybe January is a mite too early yet, but February, well, why not?. Anyway, some of mine have gone in, so I`ll see what happens.
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With my less than perfect English I am the last person to give courses in semantics. My comment was merely a respectful attempt to define a potential difference in philosophies between us, hence my allusion to Darwin.
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Bad frosts - hmmm. Well quite bad compared to what we have had so far this winter down here, but i suppose not reall as bad as some.
I dont think the night time temperatures are getting below -3 or -4, but it is the compound effect, ie frost on top of frost with temperatures not getting very high during the day to warm the ground up.
That said the soil does thaw out enough to be workable by late morning (at least in the veg plot which gets the sun first this time of year).
This mornings was pehaps one of the worst, a real 'whitener' the back lawn was white not green.
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I have to agree Richard :o this mornings frost was a real hard one. Through all of the snow we have had in Essex - woken up to it many mornings, and all the mornings I have had to chizel ice off the car windscreen, I have only lost one echium pinatta. Now this morning, the last 6 were looking a little worse for wear. I hope they pull through as I am looking forward to towering spires of spikey triffidness.