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Produce => Edible Plants => Topic started by: Jayb on February 16, 2015, 12:49:28
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This year I’ve splashed out and ordered Crimson Crush tomato plants from Suttons. http://www.suttons.co.uk/Gardening/Vegetable+Plants/All+Vegetable+Plants/Tomato+Plants+-+Crimson+Crush_242971.htm
I’m really hoping they live up to the blurb as they suggest they are tasty and the most resistant tomatoes variety yet as they have both PH2 and PH3 genes which are resistant to the pathogen Phytopthera infestans. The L. Blight resistant varieties previously available only had one of the resistance genes. Although I believe several varieties available in America have good resistance too and contain the same double resistance genes. Also breeder Tom Wagner has been breeding to incorporate PH2 and PH3 in some of his lines whilst breeding for taste, although his varieties are generally still segregating. I've found Koralik has done quite well here in the past but they do succumb.
Anyone going to be growing Crimson Crush or another Blight resistant variety this year? Fancy comparing results later on?
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i grow fandango gets blight eventually but last year none and all trusses ripen very well
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It would be very nice to have a resistant variety that also taste good, Have grown several including Koralik but no taste for me and only lasted slightly longer.
I have more or less given up on tomatoes.
It is tempting but they are rather pricey especially since the postage is extra.
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i grow fandango gets blight eventually but last year none and all trusses ripen very well
Not one I've tried, good to know it does well for you. Is it an outdoor type?
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It would be very nice to have a resistant variety that also taste good, Have grown several including Koralik but no taste for me and only lasted slightly longer.
I have more or less given up on tomatoes.
It is tempting but they are rather pricey especially since the postage is extra.
Lets hope these are the the tomato they are claimed to be then, such a shame to not be growing tomatoes. They are pricy, but I bought them when they had a free postage weekend, else I probably wouldn't have. As long as they turn up and do well, I'll be saving seeds later on if you are interested? It might be one for the Seed Circle too.
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I am hoping to try "Fandango" this year but like many it's an F1. "Peron" (Sprayless) is one of the better well known resistant heritage varieties which I have grown in the past.
The best results regarding resistance that I have had has been with "Garden Pearl" which I fan train to the house wall which is in half pots fixed to the wall and protected with the eves. I notice that when others have failed Garden Pearl remains unaffected.
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Once you have them its easy to save seed, and if the taste doesnt come up to the hype it could still be used for breeding.
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I am hoping to try "Fandango" this year but like many it's an F1.
If you like it, you could try "dehybridising" it. Just save seeds as normal, and then sow them the next year - you could grow as few as 6 plants although more would be better. Then just save seeds from the best plant, prioritising taste and blight resistance. Keep saving from the best plant every year and in 6-7 years it should be stabilised and you'll have a new OP variety that's similar to (or hopefully even better) than the original!
You may also get a happy surprise... sometimes varieties labelled F1 actually aren't. There's a cynical part of me that wonders if seed companies occasionally "accidentally" call something a hybrid so they can charge you £4 for 5 seeds instead of £2 for 20.
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I am hoping to try "Fandango" this year but like many it's an F1.
That's why I'm keen to try Crimson Crush
"Peron" (Sprayless) is one of the better well known resistant heritage varieties which I have grown in the past.
Sadly I didn't find Peron Sprayless was resistant to late blight when I grew it, a nice tomato though.
The best results regarding resistance that I have had has been with "Garden Pearl" which I fan train to the house wall which is in half pots fixed to the wall and protected with the eves. I notice that when others have failed Garden Pearl remains unaffected
Thats intresting, I wonder if it was the protective position that helped keep Garden Pearl growing so well for you. I've not grown Garden Pearl for several years, but founf it had no resistance to LB when I grew it outdoors.
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Once you have them its easy to save seed, and if the taste doesnt come up to the hype it could still be used for breeding.
Crimson Crush does sound like an excellent canditate for breeding with.
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You may also get a happy surprise... sometimes varieties labelled F1 actually aren't. There's a cynical part of me that wonders if seed companies occasionally "accidentally" call something a hybrid so they can charge you £4 for 5 seeds instead of £2 for 20.
Might just be that the F1 is stable? Maybe seed company never bothered to test if F2 was stable?
All O/P varieties originated as an F1 at some point, I guess? :)
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If similar looking/tasting lines etc are used to produce an F1 with the desired qualities, then any grown out to F'2 can look very similar with perhaps only small varieations that aren't very noticable.
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I'm trying a resistant variety from Chiltern Seeds this year, though I can't remember what it's called - claimed to taste superb as well. Given that ours get blight every single bleedin' year, I'd given up until I saw them. As someone said upthread, though, it's wrong not to grow tomatoes!
Adrian
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It would be very nice to have a resistant variety that also taste good, Have grown several including Koralik but no taste for me and only lasted slightly longer.
I have more or less given up on tomatoes.
I agree - you occasionally get a new plant that tastes good and has disease resistance but it's usually one that was bred for flavour and the disease resistance is a fluke like winning the lottery.
If breeders are going for disease resistance they will always promote the most resistant strain and if there was one with 3x the flavour and only 90% the resistance they would dump it.
Nobody ever lost money by underestimating the good taste of the Great British Public.
"Outstanding flavour" legally includes "outstandingly bland"... and "Superb Flavour" always turns out to be that PR favourite: The "Big Lie".
I haven't given up on tomatoes yet, and I grow the same 4 every year - but I still find that it is a different one each year that is blighted first and worst.
I think a far better stratagem would be to try and improve the flavour of the (horribly thorny) Lychee Tomato - Solanum sisymbriifolium.
It is completely immune to blight, hardy enough to overwinter in a cold greenhouse (so far one has survived this year's -5C minimum under just 3 layers of net) - and it tastes like a fair-to-middling supermarket tomato.
It is sold pretty much in its wild form - imagine what proper a breeding programme could achieve!
Cheers.
PS. The one under the net is a volunteer in my builder's bag of rotted woodchip (used for fly-free carrots) and the light soil has made it grow twice as tall in half the time compared to the ones in my heavy soil - despite a nutrient level tailored for root crops.
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I haven't given up on tomatoes yet, and I grow the same 4 every year - but I still find that it is a different one each year that is blighted first and worst.
So...what are your 'same 4' that you keep growing? (yes, I'm being nosy... :angel11:)
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I'm trying a resistant variety from Chiltern Seeds this year, though I can't remember what it's called - claimed to taste superb as well. Given that ours get blight every single bleedin' year, I'd given up until I saw them. As someone said upthread, though, it's wrong not to grow tomatoes!
Adrian
Are they Ferline F1?
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Hi Jayb
I splashed out on the Crimson Crushes too as soon as I saw them.
I was thinking of trying to cross them with my best and tastiest outdoor croppers if I'm around at the right time (Stupice and Aurora). I think it's worth a try and easy to see if it works.
But, I was reading the Savari Research Trust's website a while back and (from memory) they say in the mid-seventies a variety of blight which mutates was imported into Europe in potato tubers which is why it has become such a killer for outdoor tomatoes so for how long this variety will be blight-free it seems to me is debatable.
Anyway, nothing to lose! Yes, let's compare notes and breed away....
Earlypea
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Are they Ferline F1?
I'll try to remember to check the packet, but as I'm away for the weekend don't hold your breath for an answer...
Adrian
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I haven't given up on tomatoes yet, and I grow the same 4 every year - but I still find that it is a different one each year that is blighted first and worst.
So...what are your 'same 4' that you keep growing? (yes, I'm being nosy... :angel11:)
I always grow both Gardeners Delight and Sungold from cuttings (I buy the biggest plants I can find in the garden centres as soon as big ones appear in March/April) they are generally way ahead of my seedlings and the cuttings root like crazy - then fruit only a week or so after the parent plant. This saves me a hell of a lot of precious propagator space (and lighting) in the next few months.
I don't often buy tomato seed - I prefer to taste real tomatoes before I buy (you can get an awful lot of nice tomatoes for the T&M packet price). Then wipe & rub the jelly off the best seeds - they germinate straight away.
They always come true - the only benefit of commercial monoculture - there will be 10,000 identical plants in one tunnel!
I grow Green Tiger (from M&S - aka. "Highlander" from seedsmen) for its unusual meaty flavour - also the round shape seems less blight prone than beefsteak types.
I grow Piccolo/Piccolino from supermarkets for its unusually tangy fruity flavour.
That's it - so far nothing has compared to these 4.
The last seed packet that wasn't totally disappointing was Green Grape - but my wife was very unimpressed (not tangy enough) and it didn't quite make it to my favourites either. Similar results for Matt's wild cherry and many other so-called flavour kinds.
Cheers.
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I grow Green Tiger (from M&S - aka. "Highlander" from seedsmen) for its unusual meaty flavour - also the round shape seems less blight prone than beefsteak types.
I didn't realize green tiger was same as highlander.. :drunken_smilie:...but yes, it has unusual flavour and I like too..though sometimes the skin is quite tough one on them.
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Hi Jayb
I splashed out on the Crimson Crushes too as soon as I saw them.
I was thinking of trying to cross them with my best and tastiest outdoor croppers if I'm around at the right time (Stupice and Aurora). I think it's worth a try and easy to see if it works.
But, I was reading the Savari Research Trust's website a while back and (from memory) they say in the mid-seventies a variety of blight which mutates was imported into Europe in potato tubers which is why it has become such a killer for outdoor tomatoes so for how long this variety will be blight-free it seems to me is debatable.
Anyway, nothing to lose! Yes, let's compare notes and breed away....
Earlypea
Great, a co Crimson Crusher grower :toothy10:
The crosses you have in mind sound good, tasty outdoor types, got to be the way to go. Though I'm not sure on the grow out numbers to capture both PH2 and PH3, guess just keep whatever survives the season well.
Yes from what I understand LB strains are able to change and mutate and have become more aggresive. Previously resistant potato and tomato varieties have succumbed to the new strains. Crimson Crush along with a few other varieties have 2 types of resistance which gives added resistance but likely to show some signs in a prolonged attack, hopefully they should be able to grow through it.
I might try a Crimson Crush cross to Mountain Magic and or Defiant, though both are F1 varieties.
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I grow Green Tiger (from M&S - aka. "Highlander" from seedsmen) for its unusual meaty flavour - also the round shape seems less blight prone than beefsteak types.
I didn't realize green tiger was same as highlander.. :drunken_smilie:...but yes, it has unusual flavour and I like too..though sometimes the skin is quite tough one on them.
That firm flesh and thick skins seems to be a common trait to several very similar black/green striped cherry varieties. I wonder how similar the breeding stocks, perhaps they all originate from the same? Green Tiger and Highlander are indeed very similar though Highlander were sold as an F1 variety. I'm planning on growing Safari this year which is an open pollinate variety from Red Star Safari, originally from the Netherlands, although Safari looks to be a round cherry selection rather than elongated plum cherry type. I think it will be quite similar to (British) Green Tiger.
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You guys worry me - you are going to have to actively encourage Blight onto your plot to see if your crosses are working :evil1: !!
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You guys worry me - you are going to have to actively encourage Blight onto your plot to see if your crosses are working :evil1: !!
Not sure I follow you or the angry face?
LB needs no hand from me and arrives here each year, presumably carried in the air when conditions are condusive to it's development. I admit I don't activly try and prevent blight as I no longer use toxic chemicals to prevent it and don't want to so. Buying a naturally bred variety that is reported to be blight resistant and grows well out doors seems the way forward. Plus for me, being able to use excisting LB resistant varieties to make some new varieties that will suit my garden, growing conditions and my taste, seems fine to me.
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Seems like playing with fire to me :)
I wish you luck, not sure how you control the testing of whether what you are breeding is blight-resistant, without putting your harvest at risk - and your neighbours too ....
If you cannot avoid blight at all, year on year, then I guess you are in a good geographic location to try the breeding. I suppose if you save-seed early in the season, before Blight, you can the re-bred from those for F2 / F3 generations that might improve on the F1s ...
Do you get away without blight in greenhouses at all? I know greenhouse crops are susceptible, but thought they were somewhat less likely to be infected - no rained-on foliage, and with door closed / not facing prevailing wind then some chance that the spores don't naturally enter.
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I really can't see how it is playing with fire any more than me growing any other variety of potato or tomato outside. Perhaps it is less as they may be LB resistant. Both potatoes and Toms are at risk each year and harvest is normally dependent on when Late Blight arrives, some years this can be as early as the first half of June.
If I were looking to save seeds from a LB resistant variety, either a commercially available variety or a 'homebred' one, then it would be selected because it wasn't affected by Late Blight. So in this case best not to rush to save seeds early in the season before LB strikes. Growing these really would put no more risk on my crops or anyone else.
I do grow quite a few tomatoes in a greenhouse and poly-tunnel too. It would be the norm for outside crops to be affected, where with luck and care, greenhouse and poly-tunnel crops are unaffected. Though one year I discovered it in the poly-tunnel first and with the weather combinations (lots of fog, drizzle and mist) at the time it had spread very quickly.
Also my experience here is the LB strains usually affect the potato crop first, with affected leaves showing about 10 to 14 days before tomatoes. Potatoes are affected very rapidly and it spreads unbelievably quickly and needs to be dealt with straight away. Tomatoes are somewhat more resistant in that if any leaf is noted early with blight and removed then the remainder of the plant has a good chance to remain healthy. If not noticed at the first sign then it is usually best to cull the plant. One year tomatoes were affected while the potatoes remained untouched till much later in the season. What a treat it would be not to have it at all!
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So in this case best not to rush to save seeds early in the season before LB strikes. Growing these really would put no more risk on my crops or anyone else.
My thinking was that your F1 might not be blight resistant, but your F2 might be - hence I'm thinking better to save seed early, before blight, in case gene is carried recessive in F1 and then double-recessive in F2
I do grow quite a few tomatoes in a greenhouse and poly-tunnel too. It would be the norm for outside crops to be affected, where with luck and care, greenhouse and poly-tunnel crops are unaffected
I was hoping that would be the case. Some comfort at least. I too have had friends who have lost greenhouse crop unexpectedly in a few seasons. Possibly a different strain that year, or just a wet & humid, dismal summer as you described.
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Do you get away without blight in greenhouses at all? I know greenhouse crops are susceptible, but thought they were somewhat less likely to be infected - no rained-on foliage, and with door closed / not facing prevailing wind then some chance that the spores don't naturally enter.
kGarden, there are blight spores ( blown in by the wind and absolutely everywhere) - nobody can help those. Then there are the virulent, activated blight spores - and it is the latter that do the harm. Activation happens after a certain amount of humidity.
Wiki explains it much better than me:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytophthora_infestans
If greenhouse doors stay closed, humidity goes up inside - bad idea! They need to be open and the vents too, in order to get air flow happening which dries off damp and reduces humidity. It is easier to ventilate a greenhouse than a polytunnel, which is why there is more blight in tunnels. It is important to leave doors open - nothing will stop the blight spores, they are blown in on any breeze or come in with the gardener, but you can largely stop the activation of late blight spores by preventing tomato leaves staying wet for hours.
Obviously watering directly onto foliage is also a very bad idea for the same reason that tomatoes out in the open, which get rained on, are at risk.
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Are they Ferline F1?
Yes, they are.
Adrian
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there are blight spores ( blown in by the wind and absolutely everywhere) - nobody can help those. Then there are the virulent, activated blight spores - and it is the latter that do the harm. Activation happens after a certain amount of humidity.
Thanks, I'm familiar with the mechanics of Blight. Blight is rare where I am - I don't know if that is because it is drier here (in East Anglia), or because I have no near neighbours growing Spuds or Tomatoes. Certainly the agricultural land near me is just Wheat / Barley / Rape and, for as the crow can fly without a rest!, into the prevailing wind there is only agricultural land. The Blight Watch Email thingie sends me less than 10 alerts a season, and nearly all of them are the warning type (Smiths Period I think, maybe there is even a less severe alert than that ...) rather than an actual outbreak in the vicinity. Clearly I am in a very lucky position, compared to growers elsewhere in the UK, but hence I am also only vaguely aware of the relative infection of Potatoes / Tomatoes outside/inside glasshouse from what gardening chums have told me. I'm always keen to learn though, and better understand such things - if only to be able to relay knowledge to others.
I have a reactively large glasshouse. I don't need to open the door to get ventilation, except on very hot days. My door is, by design, not facing the prevailing wind - so for blight spores to get into my greenhouse it has to be very hot, for the door to be open, and come from a non-prevailing wind direction, or the spores have to get in through the vents. Of course they can swirl about and get in anyway ... but "In principle" I'm well placed to avoid it. I also don't water the foliage in the greenhouse at all (leaky hose irrigation onto soil, under weed suppressing membrane, so water being sploshed about.
Interesting as to why Blight outbreak in Polytunnel is worse than Glasshouse - makes sense now you say it, thanks.
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Theres an easy way to test for blight resistance. Grow whatever it is on a site like my allotment where theres an outbreak at some point every year, and see whether it succumbs. It works with my potatoes, so it should work with toms.
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Question - is it the same strain okf blight that affects potatoes and tomatoes? This seems to be assumed above in the discussion; I thought they were different.
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Yes, if one gets it, the other very soon follows.
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Well, I grew GT next to Highlander and the taste was the same, the unusual stem-blackening response to burgundy mix spray was the same, and many of the fruits looked identical (though there is quite a wide range of shapes, dimples/beaks etc. in GT).
I didn't have enough Highlander plants to say if they were less variable - as you might expect a seedsman's selection to be.
The last M&S packet I saw only suggested you cook them - yes I'm sure they are great for this but it's missing 90% of the point for me!
If a fruit doesn't taste good out of hand I don't grow it. I know people grow tomatoes to use as vegetables but if I find any tomato that tastes like a vegetable I grow something different next year...
For me, pears are about the only fruit that tastes as good but different when cooked (lightly & properly). I do buy canned lychees and I also like peach schnapps but only because it doesn't taste like canned peaches.
I do cook bananas too - but only when I can't be bothered to wait the 2 or 3 weeks before they ripen properly...
Cheers.
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I'm also growing Crimson Crush for breeding futures.
Ph2 and Ph3 are co-dominant. The problem is we have no idea whether the plat is really an F1 or not and if it is whether it is homo or heterozygous at these loci.
Simple selection by which plant survive the blight will not necessarily preserve both genes as some resistance is connoted to each gene separately.
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Good to have another Crimson Crush grower, it will be interesting to hear how they do in the different locations. Suttons have said Crimson Crush is not an F1 variety, so should if they are correct, CC will be true from seed and give stable F1's from crossing.
Simple selection may not be fool proof but will help narrow the field.
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Crimson Crush plugs arrived this morning. They look to be rooted cuttings rather than seedlings and still quite small with not much root as yet. I've potted them up and popped them in the propagator, which will hopefully give them a little boost.
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Crimson Crush does not have f1 in its name but according to the symbol at top right Suttons are claiming it is an F1 in some places.
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i got some free seeds from t&m dont know the variety watch this space for cropping and plant health
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Crimson Crush does not have f1 in its name but according to the symbol at top right Suttons are claiming it is an F1 in some places.
That's confusing, when I emailed them they wrote back to say they were not an F1 variety.
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i got some free seeds from t&m dont know the variety watch this space for cropping and plant health
Great, look forward to your progress. How many are you going to be growing?
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i got some free seeds from t&m dont know the variety watch this space for cropping and plant health
I have some too, must get them in. As the toms and tatties get blighted most years here, should be a decent test for them!
Adrian
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Crimson Crush does not have f1 in its name but according to the symbol at top right Suttons are claiming it is an F1 in some places.
That's confusing, when I emailed them they wrote back to say they were not an F1 variety.
I think Suttons are being a bit evasive on purpose. It is possible that the variety is an OP but they'd rather create the illusion of an F1 in the hope people don't save seed.
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ive put all 5 seeds in and shall plant them along side my fandango to see the difference
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They sometimes put 'F1' on an OP variety because some people have got the idea F1's are 'better'.
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i got some free seeds from t&m dont know the variety watch this space for cropping and plant health
I have some too, must get them in. As the toms and tatties get blighted most years here, should be a decent test for them!
Adrian
Yes normally blight here too, hope they do well for you :happy7:
It's encouraging there seems to be several new 'blight resistant' varieties being introduced. Let's hope they are up to the job!
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ive put all 5 seeds in and shall plant them along side my fandango to see the difference
A nice little trial, I wonder if they will let you know the variety later on?
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Crimson Crush does not have f1 in its name but according to the symbol at top right Suttons are claiming it is an F1 in some places.
That's confusing, when I emailed them they wrote back to say they were not an F1 variety.
I can't remember - are Suttons saying that seed will be available next year, but only plants this year?
If no seed promised I wonder if it is only vegetatively reproduced, and thus cannot be crossed (e.g. from F1 parents) reliably and thus will only be grown from "cuttings" (or maybe tissue culture)
I think Suttons should say if it will NOT grow from self-saved seed, otherwise well meaning folk will save seed, grow it next year,a nd lose all their plants to blight :(
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Of course it'll grow from self-saved seed. If it's an F1, the result will be variable, but you just pick out the best and save seed from those. It's easy to test for blight resistance; expose them to the disease and see what happens. I'm guessing, but commercial resistance is usually 'vertical resistance' based on a single gene. That makes it easy to select for once you have the gene, but it's probably going to be homozygous - with two copies of the gene - in which case you can't lose it. The weakness is that with vertical resistance the disease is one mutation away from becoming immune to whatever the plant's doing.
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I've put all 5 seeds in and shall plant them along side my fandango to see the difference
A nice little trial, I wonder if they will let you know the variety later on?
well i hope so if there any good that is ill still be growing my money maker alicante gardeners delight and 5 other variety's love my toms ill let you know how they all get on
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Of course it'll grow from self-saved seed. If it's an F1, the result will be variable, but you just pick out the best and save seed from those. It's easy to test for blight resistance; expose them to the disease and see what happens. I'm guessing, but commercial resistance is usually 'vertical resistance' based on a single gene. That makes it easy to select for once you have the gene, but it's probably going to be homozygous - with two copies of the gene - in which case you can't lose it. The weakness is that with vertical resistance the disease is one mutation away from becoming immune to whatever the plant's doing.
We're almost certainly dealing with vertical resistance with Ph2 and Ph3 being the deliverer of resistance - these genes are nothing new however and I think Suttons may be making unduly bold claims generally. Unless there is a wild parent providing some horizontal resistance.
There is no reason to assume homozygousity if an F1 because both Ph2 & Ph3 are codominant so if each parent carried just one then the F1 would be dual resistant but heterozygous for both genes. In the F2 only 1:16 plants would be homozygous for dual resistance and 1:16 no resistance with the remaining 14:16 having partial or heterozygous resistance. In any given season it may be very hard to separate the plants with partial from full resistance depending on blight varieties in a given year.
I suspect this is why we have hithertonow seen no dual resistant homozygous varities.
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Of course it'll grow from self-saved seed.
I was meaning "come true". Of course.
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There is no reason to assume homozygousity if an F1 because both Ph2 & Ph3 are codominant so if each parent carried just one then the F1 would be dual resistant but heterozygous for both genes. In the F2 only 1:16 plants would be homozygous for dual resistance and 1:16 no resistance with the remaining 14:16 having partial or heterozygous resistance. In any given season it may be very hard to separate the plants with partial from full resistance depending on blight varieties in a given year.
I suspect this is why we have hithertonow seen no dual resistant homozygous varities.
I'm not sure you mean "codominant" here. Codominance (or incomplete dominance) is a relationship between two alleles of the same gene which don't show the typical Mendelian one-or-the-other dominance pattern. The heterozygote shows a different phenotype to the homozygotes, often some kind of intermediate (e.g. a red flower crossed with a white flower showing all pink heterozygous F1s).
Alleles of different genes can't be codominant. Maybe you're thinking of complimentary genes?
I know very little about tomato genes, but it strikes me that it would be relatively easy to get a dual-resistant homozygote from an initial cross of parents with two different resistance genes given enough time and growing enough seeds, simply because tomatoes are self-pollinating.
Homozygotes continue to breed homozygotes, but heterozygotes breed half heterozygotes and half homozygotes. Each generation you'll get fewer and fewer heterozygotes as they segregate. Completely non-resistant plants can be culled. And some of the resistant homozygotes will very likely be double resistant. The only drawback is it takes at least 7 generations to let genetics do all the work for you like this, possibly more. But there's no real work other than the initial cross and growing out plants every year.
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There is no reason to assume homozygousity if an F1 because both Ph2 & Ph3 are codominant so if each parent carried just one then the F1 would be dual resistant but heterozygous for both genes. In the F2 only 1:16 plants would be homozygous for dual resistance and 1:16 no resistance with the remaining 14:16 having partial or heterozygous resistance. In any given season it may be very hard to separate the plants with partial from full resistance depending on blight varieties in a given year.
I suspect this is why we have hithertonow seen no dual resistant homozygous varities.
I'm not sure you mean "codominant" here. Codominance (or incomplete dominance) is a relationship between two alleles of the same gene which don't show the typical Mendelian one-or-the-other dominance pattern. The heterozygote shows a different phenotype to the homozygotes, often some kind of intermediate (e.g. a red flower crossed with a white flower showing all pink heterozygous F1s).
Alleles of different genes can't be codominant. Maybe you're thinking of complimentary genes?
I know very little about tomato genes, but it strikes me that it would be relatively easy to get a dual-resistant homozygote from an initial cross of parents with two different resistance genes given enough time and growing enough seeds, simply because tomatoes are self-pollinating.
Homozygotes continue to breed homozygotes, but heterozygotes breed half heterozygotes and half homozygotes. Each generation you'll get fewer and fewer heterozygotes as they segregate. Completely non-resistant plants can be culled. And some of the resistant homozygotes will very likely be double resistant. The only drawback is it takes at least 7 generations to let genetics do all the work for you like this, possibly more. But there's no real work other than the initial cross and growing out plants every year.
Cornell describe ph2 and ph3 as having incomplete dominance, North Carolina State University used the term codominance and North Californiua used the term 'partially dominant'.
Having read your explanation and various papers on these genes I agree that Codominance is not the correct term. What we are discussing is really incomplete dominance, so I stand corrected I followed the erroneous use of NCSU.
Thinking further though, the incomplete dominance here connotes less resistance within the heterozygous populations - meaning self-selection for the homozygous population should occur easily through repeated selfing in blight active areas/seasons. As the homozygous population are more resistant I suspect that what we may actually have here is the first tomato release of a homozygous cultivar - hence Sutton's fanfare.
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Sorry Silverleaf I've read back through our posts and I think there's been a misunderstanding - Ph2 and Ph3 are separate genes so each could be codominant or partially dominant at their own loci - I was not suggesting they are alleles of the same gene.
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"Thank you for your email.
I am sorry if we have given any conflicting advice. I can confirm that the Tomato Crimson Crush is definitely an F1 variety"
Suttons reply to me.
However, if the Ph2 and Ph3 are codominant or partially dominant then an F1 that is heterozygous at these loci would not be as resistant as a homozygote. So further breeding should still be bale to produce more resistance.
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How balmy is that! The answer I had was "The Tomato Crimson Crush is not an F1 variety."
Perhaps we should ask Suttons again and make it best out of 3!
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My blight resistant cherry tomatoes "tomatillo de jalapo" bought from real seeds have just come up by self seeding for the fourth year in a row so if you direct sow there will still be time. In three years not one has shown any blight even when the others have collapsed right next to it ... they eventually die off with the first frosts dropping any remaining fruits and seeding for the next year!
They're definitely a "wild type" tomato which makes thousands of very small cherry/berry tomatoes that are almost all juice and quite sweet when ripe. The plants don't have much structure - they just sprawl all over the place. The only down side is they ripen quit unevenly and if you try to pick them by hand they can burst very easily ... I just snip them off with scissors. A very easy way of adding to the salad bowl.
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I was thinking about growing some tomatillo de jalapo this year but ran out of room and they can be a bit wilful!
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How balmy is that! The answer I had was "The Tomato Crimson Crush is not an F1 variety."
Perhaps we should ask Suttons again and make it best out of 3!
I emailed Suttons again and asked for clarification, they apologise for the confusion, but Crimson Crush is an F1 variety.
So an F1 they are, by a 2 out of 3 majority!
Seeds will be available this autumn from them.
My little plants don't seem to be growing since I had them, perhaps they are putting out root and the leaves will get going before long.
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Has Tom Wagner done a cross to incorporate PH2 and PH3 resistances?
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Yes, I think he has incorporated in quite a few of his lines, but how far along any of the lines are I don't know. Skykomish I believe is one, although so far the segregates I've grown haven't been particularly resistant, but not too say that other siblings aren't brilliant. I think Real Seeds may have some seeds.
Skykomish (NWS 2012, 2013, 2014. TWS 2013) Tom's description and picture from New world Seeds, "A beautiful bicolor fruit of yellow/orange/red with a flavor out of this world...and near 100% late blight resistance. Â One of my better creations.... 4 inch fruits of reveled colors.
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Thompson and Morgan are selling Mountain Magic F1 another Late Blight resistant variety, again with PH2 and PH3 genes. Bred by Randy Gardner in the US it was made available there I think in 2011. Good to see seeds have finally been offered here too.
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I've read this thread with interest but I'm not a biologist so still need help please ....
Q1: Is every seed in any tomato genetically identical to all the others in the same single fruit?
Q2: For something like Crimson Crush, how many tomatoes would you have to take for seed to have say a 90% probability of one being from the 1/16th group that has inherited both the PH2 and PH3 genes?
Thanks
Baffled of Loughborough
Edited to add: Is it really only 1/16th of the population that has both genes from its parents? Oh you guys, I haven't had enough coffee yet to get my head around this.
** back to drawing on bits of paper **
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There are a lot of comments in "Bargains galore" mainly concerned with Crimson Crush. free plants.
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I've read this thread with interest but I'm not a biologist so still need help please ....
Q1: Is every seed in any tomato genetically identical to all the others in the same single fruit?
Q2: For something like Crimson Crush, how many tomatoes would you have to take for seed to have say a 90% probability of one being from the 1/16th group that has inherited both the PH2 and PH3 genes?
Thanks
Baffled of Loughborough
Edited to add: Is it really only 1/16th of the population that has both genes from its parents? Oh you guys, I haven't had enough coffee yet to get my head around this.
** back to drawing on bits of paper **
Apparently both resistance genes are dominant, because they have a code name starting with a capital letter. What happens after that, I'm not so sure. We can assume in most cases that tomatoes are self pollinated and not crossed (which is the exception and I think we can ignore in this case). I would appreciate a simple explanation as well, please. :sunny:
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I can only add my penny's worth if what I've experienced myself...so scientific answers from me.
All seeds in any non-hybrid tomatoes should be identical...providing the flower is self pollinated...or pollinated by same variety.
It is the hybridisation that throws things into different category.
We know that F1 don't come true to type from seed...even if it is self-pollinated...the fruit from those seed can show any mixture of trait's from its parentage.
In past I've trialled this and I've ended up with VERY similar fruit..but not quite. There might be duller shine for the skin...there might be different amount of divisions inside the fruit...the size or shape might be slightly different....etc. BUT..what seeds I've harvested from few particular F1 plants...all the 1st generation plants that I grew, they were all same, though there was subtle differences to the parent plant. I've even ended up with fruit that looked almost identical to the original hybrid but when 'proper' hybrid plant and one that comes from self pollinated seeds from same variety were grown side by side...receiving same care...the fruit from the 1st generation did actually taste better!!!!
I've crossed 1st generation hybrid with 'heritage' type....getting 3 different type of fruit from the seeds from same tomato... :drunken_smilie: I suppose that's the result of 3 parent genes in work..
I love to play with 'seeds' that come from F1 plants and I've never ever ended anything that was tasting or looking horrid or even disappointing.
Every year I trial few toms from supermarket and if something is even half decent tasting...I just might save few seeds from them and usually ending up with similar looking fruit that will taste much better when they are lovingly grown in my own GH :glasses9: Though when the seeds come from 'commercial' varieties, the plants usually do tend to grow 'sky high'...luckily my GH is able to accommodate fair bit of growth, and rest can grow out of window :icon_cheers: But I can't see general supermarket toms being all from F1 source...it would cost them too much money..?!
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OK, I tried to remember the trees that Silverleaf and Galina were drawing at the A4A get together last year - here goes:
Each parent has one copy of the PH2 and one of PH3. And they are separate right? So its genetic contribution to the progeny is one of 4 possibilities: PH2 + PH3, PH2 only, PH3 only or nothing. Same with the other parent. So you can draw a 4 by 4 grid (that's where the 16 comes from), with those 4 possibilities on each axis. So one lucky offspring ends up with 2 copies of each gene (YAY!!). But another 8 end up with at least one copy of each gene which gives then the same resistance as the parent because its a dominant gene. Then 6 end up with just one type of gene, though they may have 2 of the same one. And one ends up with none.
Of course, I might have gone miles down the wrong track here :tongue3:.
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And you don't need many tomatoes to do this because 9 out of 16 of the F2s are at least as good as the original F1s.
:blob7:
But it does assume self pollination.
And you can't tell which ones you've got until they've made a plant.
Ooooooo - you know, this dehybridisation business can't be easy.
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And you don't need many tomatoes to do this because 9 out of 16 of the F2s are at least as good as the original F1s.
:blob7:
But it does assume self pollination.
And you can't tell which ones you've got until they've made a plant.
Ooooooo - you know, this dehybridisation business can't be easy.
This works if tomatoes (like peas) are diploids. Not sure whether they are. Tried to google and it mentions that they could be either diploid or triploid. And I don't know how or whether this would affect the outcome.
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All the seeds from an F1 will be almost identical because there's very little genetic diversity in the parents, but it's probably safe to assume there will be at least a little. They're not clones. The same goes for any tomato, F1 or otherwise, since they're inbreeders. Every variety is likely to be descended from a single common parent. The only exception would be a plant which had crossed, whether deliberately or otherwise.
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All the seeds from an F1 will be almost identical because there's very little genetic diversity in the parents, but it's probably safe to assume there will be at least a little. They're not clones. The same goes for any tomato, F1 or otherwise, since they're inbreeders. Every variety is likely to be descended from a single common parent. The only exception would be a plant which had crossed, whether deliberately or otherwise.
Don't think they will be almost identical. Seeds from an F1 are the F2 generation and this generally is the generation that expresses the most diversity.
And we don't know the parents, apart from one being a resistant tomato from the USA and the other a resistant tomato from the UK. Not sure how similar they looked and tasted as tomatoes.
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I've found Kieth Mueller's site very helpful http://kdcomm.net/~tomato/gene/genes.html http://kdcomm.net/~tomato/gene/genes2.html
I think looking for two dominate genes is going to be very difficult, particularly as they aren't readily visible in the same way as if you were looking for a black or cherry fruited tomato.
A stable self pollinated tomato variety will give identical plants from saved seed.
Two stable parents crossed together will give identical F1 plants from saved seed. Only in the second generation (F2) of plants will differences be seen, sometimes these differences might be minimal if say the two parents are both cordon, black fruited cherry tomatoes with regular type leaves. But if a black fruited beefsteak with potato leaves is crossed with a yellow pear shaped regular leaved tomato then very much more variation will be seen.
If either parent is not stable and then crossed, this still gives F1 seeds but they are not identical and behave more like f2's in the variation seen in the first generation.
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I've read this thread with interest but I'm not a biologist so still need help please ....
Q1: Is every seed in any tomato genetically identical to all the others in the same single fruit?
Yes and no - in a non-hybrid tomato, that has self pollinated, all the seeds should be genetically identical unless a random mutation has occurred.
All F1 seeds in a packet are identical genetically, but the fruit on the plants grown from those seeds will have great diversity between seeds, even taken from the same fruit.
Q2: For something like Crimson Crush, how many tomatoes would you have to take for seed to have say a 90% probability of one being from the 1/16th group that has inherited both the PH2 and PH3 genes?
15 plants would render a 94% chance of recovering at least one plant of the desired genotype.
Edited to add: Is it really only 1/16th of the population that has both genes from its parents? Oh you guys, I haven't had enough coffee yet to get my head around this.
** back to drawing on bits of paper **
The 1/16th is based on the genes Ph2 and Ph3 having incomplete dominance. That is where a plant that is homozygous for the genes has a greater degree of resistance than one that is heterozygous at the same loci.
The F1 being heterozygous is not as resistant as some of its potential offspring a selfing of the f1 would only produce 1/16th of offspring that are homozygous at both loci.
This would all be so simple if we were dealing with normal simple dominance. Because of the incomplete dominance the progeny will have varying degrees of resistance depending as some will be homozygous at one loci but not the other.
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^^ thank you, I am beginning to understand this now. It's a lot of work but you do get to eat nice tomatoes.
I think I will try the clone approach first, if the CC plants do well - overwintering cuttings.
Suddenly the seeds seem good value.
:happy7:
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I have fruit set on my first trusses, plants are doing very well even in this chilly weather.
The first fruit look like they're going to be fairly large, but the first tomato on a plant is often a multi-lobed mutant.
I have five plants all together, three large ones and two freebie ones from Dobies which are still very small.
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I've done a little punnet square to illustrate what we may see when attempting to dehybridise crimson crush, if indeed it is a hybrid.
(http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/ad166/waldorfnicol/Screenshot%20from%202015-06-11%20100745.png)
In this diagram A represent Ph2 and B Ph3. Because Ph2 and Ph3 have incomplete dominance we should see 9 genotypes (phenotypes being the same as genotype in this case) at these loci - of course we may see all manner of other segregation and there is the danger the magic AABB may be a spitter.
Each genotype will have varying resistance from AABB having the best to aabb having none. The positive thing is that genotypes AABB, AABb, and AaBB - 5/16ths have better resistance than the F1 and 9/16ths have better or the same as the F1.
Where things get tricky is that depending on when and which strain of blight appears in a given season AAbb and aaBB may show better resistance than AaBb, AABb or AaBB while actually being less desirable. Given this it's going to be important not to rogue any variety showing any resistance too soon. Otherwise an AAbb may be kept over a AaBB only for the AAbb to die completely later in the season where an AaBB would have kept going.
Dehybridising to a AABB may best be achieved by maintaining lines for many season and rouging whole lines once varying resistance becomes apparent - the danger here is discovering years later you never had an AABB line in the first place.
Ultimately my aim would be, through crossing, to produce an AABB cultivar that can be then used to transfer the genes to any variety through recurrent back crossing.
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:drunken_smilie:
:icon_scratch:
:confused3:
:confused4:
:sign13:
:thumbsup:
:toothy5:
All clear now! :sunny:
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All this said and done I don't quite get the hype being generated by dobies/suttons - Skykomish is already homozygous for Ph2 and Ph3, so unless there is more to it than their literature claims Crimson Crush is not a first and would be less resistant than Skykomish.
I suppose Skykomish can be used as a good control plant to compare degrees of resistance and see if more is at play in Crimson Crush.
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Does Skykomish taste any good?
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Some people say so, it is described as having a 'fruity' taste. I've never eaten one.
Personally I like mine to have a deep savoury richness, like black trifele, but my granddad always liked an acidic zing. Tomato taste is so subjective.
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I still think it's a better idea to set up a breeding programme to improve the flavour of the "lychee tomato" Solanum sisymbriifolium.
At present it's about as flavoursome as the average cherry tomato in the shops (for the record I like zing) - I'd say that's a bit better than any "blight resistant" tomato I've ever tasted - Losetto, Ferline etc. - and in the process you get a plant that is so resistant it's reasonable to expect it to cope with another 10 years of new blights.
Cheers.
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Must admit I found Lychee tomato were quite vicious with their thorns. fiddly to pick and I prefer the feel and taste of tomatoes. But I am giving them another whirl this year to see if I like them any better.
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All this said and done I don't quite get the hype being generated by dobies/suttons - Skykomish is already homozygous for Ph2 and Ph3, so unless there is more to it than their literature claims Crimson Crush is not a first and would be less resistant than Skykomish.
I suppose Skykomish can be used as a good control plant to compare degrees of resistance and see if more is at play in Crimson Crush.
I think it likely Skykomish is still segregating for some traits. I believe Tom shared some seeds when he visited Europe and the UK, he also started selling them from 2012.
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Must admit I found Lychee tomato were quite vicious with their thorns. fiddly to pick and I prefer the feel and taste of tomatoes. But I am giving them another whirl this year to see if I like them any better.
You're entirely right about its poor social skills - but the flavour & texture is massively affected by how ripe you pick them - if you let them ripen fully the thorny 'lantern' opens so wide you won't draw blood when picking - and the flavour and texture is much more like a tomato - though since nobody has bred them recently (apparently the old selections have been lost) the flavour is very variable from plant to plant.
I can't see them becoming mainstream hobby plants - let alone a commercial crop! But they are a genuine resource in a bad blight year.
Oh, and the other thing is they will overwinter without loss of vigour if they aren't actually frosted - in an average winter they are nearly 100% reliable in a cold greenhouse.
Cheers.
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I'd like to give these lychee tomatoes a go. With generations of selection who knows what might be achieved in the distant future - just look at the brassica family to see what variety can be achieved.
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I have got some growing in the greenhouse (with one eye on seed for the seed circle if they work out). Well, after these mixed reports i shall have to be careful in my selection of plants for seed, if we ever get that far. Thanks for the overwintering tip. :wave:
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If there was a serious attempt at improving the lychee tomato the first step might be to obtain as many seeds from different sources as possible and then crossing them up to create the diversity that might lead to something better.
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One more thing about Ly Toms (getting lazy now) - plants grown in builders bags of 30cm well-rotted woodchip over part-rotted composting (ie. the N side of my fly-free carrot bags) are double the size of those grown in my very heavy London soil.
Considering these plants are nearly wild it's possible that they like a medium-richness soil as much as they obviously enjoy a very light open medium. BTW the same goes for the much-neglected tuberous pea (that I encourage to hang down over the S side of the bags).
Cheers.
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Oh, and the other thing is they will overwinter without loss of vigour if they aren't actually frosted - in an average winter they are nearly 100% reliable in a cold greenhouse.
I've had a few volunteers overwinter outside, had to pull them up in the end as they were bang in the way and attacked mercilessly every time I tried to pass! If I'd thought in time I could have potted them up and replanted them in the spring in a more suitable location. I think I'll keep one in a pot to over winter in the poly tunnel. Do you know if they propagate from cuttings well?
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My 3 Crimson Crush planted on the plot are struggling a little to get going again, a shame the weather went colder and really windy as soon as I'd planted them out. They have one truss set and a second with flowers, possibly some tidler fruit on the second. Foliage is looking stressed though.
I gave in and had 3 more plants when on offer for free just pay for postage. I've given one possibly 2 away, the last one will go in the poly tunnel to compare cropping.
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planted my plants out last month there doing ok
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Nice plants, they are looking good with you Johhnyco
My Crimson C's have picked up a lot, they are loving this warmer weather. Some nice trusses forming (picture).
Mountain Magic weren't sown till quite late, but are coming on a treat and will be planted out shortly.
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yes they have done well well done you a bit of good weather they soon catch up gave my normal toms some bordeux mixture this week but left out the blight resistant ones lets see how they do
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Mmm, they look great. I love Sungold, just so good :sunny:
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The first trusses on Crimson Crush are turning colour the blooming birds have already had a go at a couple!!!!
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Some more ripening
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Unfortunately Crimson Crush testing is on, I'll be keeping a close eye on the toms now that I've spotted Late Blight in the potato patch which is two rows (peas and Broad beans) over.
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Crimson Crush ripe tomato from one of the three plants I've got growing outside in the veggie plot. Fruit a large salad size, firm and juicy, skin not too thick, taste was pleasant, better than a supermarket tomato but with some room for improvement. Hard to rate how good they taste at the moment as like many tomatoes, I think the flavour improves as they get into the swing of production.
I nearly forgot to take a picture and was halfway through eating it before I remembered!
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I got 3 Crimson Crush plants from Suttons when they were giving them away , all you had to pay was the postage. Fruit is startin to set but at the moment I am not happy as the fruit appear to be very large rather than like the pictures show. They are growing well.
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Crimson Crush ripe tomato from one of the three plants I've got growing outside in the veggie plot. Fruit a large salad size, firm and juicy, skin not too thick, taste was pleasant, better than a supermarket tomato but with some room for improvement. Hard to rate how good they taste at the moment as like many tomatoes, I think the flavour improves as they get into the swing of production.
I nearly forgot to take a picture and was halfway through eating it before I remembered!
i must say you cut them beautifully
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Thank you :happy7:
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Have just eaten my first not too ripe (the way I like tomatoes) Crimson Crush. I agree with Jayb - an okay flavour, but not enough acidity for my taste. A bit bland.
Tricia :wave:
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Shame, I hoped it was just me. I'm going to leave the next few ripen longer to see if it makes a difference.
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The first on the truss to ripen looks to be atypical being more like a small beefstake. Mine were very fleshy with few seeds. However, I suspect later fruits will have more seed matter and therefore an entirely different flavour profile.
The fleshy ones I have eaten so far have been okay - nothing to shout home about. I have no blight at all - so far they are very healthy plants.
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Having read the posts first I tasted my first Crimson Crush with low expectations, but am happy to report that it was really flavoursome. I tried it on someone else who didn't know the full story and they said "exquisite".
There are some tomatoes I find bland: OSU Blue, Galina (other yellows too), but this is good.
I'm wondering whether that might be because I've ended up growing it like a bush rather than a vine? I've read in a couple of places lately that leaves produce the flavour. More leaves more flavour?
I gave one plant to my mother who is growing it like a vine - I'll have to taste hers and compare.
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I am growing ferline and strillo again this year. They are holding up to the never ending rain. I am not bothering with tomatoes after this year, only me and not worth the effort
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these are my blight resistant t and m no name there doing ok
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Having read the posts first I tasted my first Crimson Crush with low expectations, but am happy to report that it was really flavoursome. I tried it on someone else who didn't know the full story and they said "exquisite".
There are some tomatoes I find bland: OSU Blue, Galina (other yellows too), but this is good.
I'm wondering whether that might be because I've ended up growing it like a bush rather than a vine? I've read in a couple of places lately that leaves produce the flavour. More leaves more flavour?
I gave one plant to my mother who is growing it like a vine - I'll have to taste hers and compare.
Thats interesting, it would be good to hear what you think. Maybe worth an experiment next year. I tend to strip off a lot of leaves to increase air circulation hmm.........
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Having read the posts first I tasted my first Crimson Crush with low expectations, but am happy to report that it was really flavoursome. I tried it on someone else who didn't know the full story and they said "exquisite".
There are some tomatoes I find bland: OSU Blue, Galina (other yellows too), but this is good.
I'm wondering whether that might be because I've ended up growing it like a bush rather than a vine? I've read in a couple of places lately that leaves produce the flavour. More leaves more flavour?
I gave one plant to my mother who is growing it like a vine - I'll have to taste hers and compare.
I wonder? - Galina's here are actually outstanding this year, especially the early ones that had the heat when they developed. I have often noticed with tomatoes that can be a bit 'blah' like Sandpoint and Whippersnapper for example, that a few hot sunny days really improves their flavour. Certainly here sun is more important than leaves, I would have said.
But more leaves means more chlorophyll and more opportunity for the plant to take up any sunlight. And convert it into flavour? Unfortunately also more blight risk due to less airflow, like PKL said.
However with blight resistant tomatoes it is a great experiment to grow them as a bush, for flavour improvement. Yes the comparison with your Mother's tomatoes will be interesting. :wave:
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Having read the posts first I tasted my first Crimson Crush with low expectations, but am happy to report that it was really flavoursome. I tried it on someone else who didn't know the full story and they said "exquisite".
There are some tomatoes I find bland: OSU Blue, Galina (other yellows too), but this is good.
I'm wondering whether that might be because I've ended up growing it like a bush rather than a vine? I've read in a couple of places lately that leaves produce the flavour. More leaves more flavour?
I gave one plant to my mother who is growing it like a vine - I'll have to taste hers and compare.
Isn't taste a funny thing, I don't mind OSU Blue, not the tastiest tomato but ok and I agree with you I haven't been that struck by Galina either. I find yellows can be a bit hit or miss, usually a miss for me. Good to hear Crimson Crush flavour is coming through for you :happy7: I'm hoping the flavour picks up here, must admit they have not had a whole lot of attention since planting out and I've not been side shooting much. I love seeing the huge tomato plants they are able to grow in sunnier climes, they seem to just be loaded down with fruit, I'm sure sun and lots of foliage help with taste and sweetness as leaves are the powerhouse of the plant. Over here its more of a compromise to keep the plants healthy and for the fruit to ripen in our summer season.
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My Ferline and T&M experimentals aren't as good as Johhnyco15's, but are getting somewhere - they seem to be thriving despite the fact that I should have planted them further apart, so are currently a great bushy mass. They've thrived where my other solanums (spuds) have basically struggled, and are dying off. I intend to leave them like that as if they remain blight free in the worst possible situation...
Will be very interesting to see what they are like when they ripen - how good do they need to be to be grown again? Maybe no more than OK, as I'd given up on them owing to blight nearly every year in the past.
AG
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Hmm, I noticed today one of my outside Crimson Crush plants isn't looking so good, it has some blighty suspect looking leaves. I'll have a closer look tomorrow.
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Crimson Crush, not looking so good.
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Oh dear. That look suspiciously ike the big "B", doesn't it?
Adrian
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I'm afraid it does look that way :sad10:
I think I must live in a Late blight hot spot :BangHead:
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Hmmm ... well unless I'm very much mistaken - bang goes Crimson Crush's claim to blight resistance!
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No blight here yet, touch wood :angel11:. Rain all a.m. though, so it could be on its way.
Tricia :wave:
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Hmmm ... well unless I'm very much mistaken - bang goes Crimson Crush's claim to blight resistance!
Possibly yes and no, I'm leaving my plants to see how they cope. I'm hoping they might be the similar to Sarpo Mira potatoes, which can become infected with LB, but the important thing is they are able to fight back and grow through the initial infection stage. It may be the same with Crimson Crush although if the fruits are affected it's a wipe out, even if the plants themselves rally. It would seem Suttons and dobies were wrong to claim them as the first truly resistant variety though.
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Crimson Crush seem to be holding there own, LB didn't get into to main stem of the plant pictured above, so the plant is still growing and only a couple more new patches have developed. Which happily don't seem to be spreading and most of the fruits are looking healthy at the moment. I left the infected leaves until yesterday before removing, they were quite crispy. The other two CC plants alongside don't seem to be affected.
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Remember people resistance is not immunity.
So far I'm still fine, I have a tiny patch of LB on a leaf, which I would normally have removed but left for experimentation.
As to the tomatoes, after the disappointing taste in the first flush they've improved no end. If you let them ripen fully they become very rich and savoury.
I noted earlier in the season that I had very consistent fruit set, now I have discovered that many of the fruits are parthenocarpic. Parthenocarpy is not common so if Crimson Crush is an F1 both its parent carried the gene. Parthenocarpy is a very desirable gene in outdoor cool weather growing.
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Remember people resistance is not immunity.
Yes, I've wondered about what blight resistance is exactly. Is it just vigour?
My CC plants never really took off (I got pot bound plants) but they are producing mini-beefsteak tomatoes with good flavour. But in terms of vigour and yield, my Orkado plants are leaving 'em for dead. Both have a bit of early blight but no late blight yet.
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I have sideshoots in water and I'm impatiently looking for roots. Am determined to get them through winter for a second flush. They do taste good.
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Just tried the first ripe fruit from the Crimson Crush trial plants sent me (kindly) by T&M.
Not a massive success - the fruits are nicely large and with a fairly standard flesh to seed ratio like you'd get from the average shop-bought tomato. The skin was particularly tough and took a knife-sharpening session to slice properly! Flavour was not impressive at all - it tasted like a generic Dutch greenhouse-raised tomato that you can buy from the supermarkets all winter-long - quite sharp without a great deal of aroma or sweetness. The tomato was definitely ripe being both red and starting to go squidgey. The heritage variety Purple Ukraine harvested at a similar level of ripeness beat it for flavour hands down and had far thinner and more digestible skins.
I have no idea about it's blight tolerance yet as I haven't had any other plants go down with it this year. But if the rest of the fruit taste as bland as this one did then growing them is not worth the bother!
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tasted my t&m 2016 experimental tomato i have to say the flavour is pretty unremarkable bland even we have no blight at the moment so cant compare but the flavour is poor
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Don't know if anyone's seen this. Received the latest T&M brochure in the post yesterday. They've got a new competitor to Crimson Crush which claims to have the same blight-resistant genes and tastes better than Brandywine ? :tongue3:
Mountain Magic F1
Not only does it have good resistance to early blight, it carries the late blight-busting Ph-2 and Ph-3 genes, giving it full protection against all current British strains including Pink6 and Blue13, the most virulent to hit UK crops. It also has in built genetic resistance to both verticillium and fusarium wilt and cracking.
To top it off you will be hard pushed to find better flavour from such a disease resistant variety. Mountain Magic F1 takes on a high sugar level from its grape tomato parentage. The smooth, uniform, evenly-coloured fruits, each weighing around 56g, have consistently been rated high in flavour compared to heritage varieties such as Brandywine.
http://www.thompson-morgan.com/vegetables/vegetable-seeds/tomato-seeds/tomato-mountain-magic/tm54735TM
My Crimson Crush continue to crop steadily and tastes good. I've seen no obvious blight on the plots yet, though my sister's tomatoes not far away have already been demolished.
I compared with my mother's ones for taste (as a post above which I can't scroll back to). They weren't as good. I was saying that might be because she picked hers out and I let mine bush, but actually all of mine taste better than hers: More sun, good soil. Hers get less sun and cheap compost so not really comparable.
Also, a lot of my tomatoes this year were relatively leafless compared to previous seasons because of the drought and me not being there to water them properly and some of my most extraordinary tasting ones came from virtually leafless, seriously shabby-looking plants.
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I wouldn't go quite so far as Johnnyco15 with the T&M experimentals - certainly they were better than what our local shop sells - but I've had tastier tomatoes. Pleasant rather than great, and similar with Ferline.
Yes, we've had one ripe tom of each variety!
Adrian
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these are the T & M 2016 blight res tomato
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Are they under glass? Mine are outdoors on quite an exposed spot, very thick knee-high bushes as I let them get on with it.
Adrian
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Are they under glass? Mine are outdoors on quite an exposed spot, very thick knee-high bushes as I let them get on with it.
Adrian
no i grow all my toms outdoors
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You're in Australia?
Adrian
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since i got my new iphone 5s and windows 10 on my laptop all my pics come out anyway they like lol
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The 3 Crimson Crush plants are still blight-free with lots of good sized fruit slowly ripening, but the five other varieties I was growing outdoors - still loaded with green toms - had to be binned after showing first signs of blight yesterday.
Since I don't fancy paying 4p per seed, I'm going to save a few seeds and hope for the best next year. I also have 3 good sized C.C. plants from side shoots that I have been cosseting all summer which I hope will survive the winter in my mini greenhouse. Once the night temperatures drop below 8-9C the plants will be protected with bubble wrap and as we don't usually get much frost here on the south west coast I think they should be okay.
I have to say that I have been disappointed with the flavour of most of my tomatoes this year - which I put down to lack of sunshine and long periods of low light levels. They have also been very slow to ripen.
Tricia :wave:
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I though they were 10 seeds for £3.99? That's 40p per seed!
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Whoops :BangHead:. Typo :tongue3: getting old!
Tricia :wave:
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another trugg full
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Removed Crimson Crush plants yesterday. My thoughts ..
no blight this year on any of my tomatoes, so the jury is still out on its resistance capabilities as far as I am concerned
plants produced lots of foliage, more than my other varieties (Tamina and Sungold)
in general, larger fruits than I was expecting. Overall crop weight significantly less than Tamina.
fruits are quite solid, i.e. little liquid.
taste is relatively bland, certainly in comparison to my other varieties.
However, I will probably give them another go next year.
Brian
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Dobies have Crimson Crush £3.49 for 15 seeds = 23p each, a bit better than Suttons 40p.
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I had two lots of Crimson Crush, free ones from Dobies and a special deal from Suttons. I've had no blight this year on any tomatoes so I've no comment on their blight resistance but I do think that their flavour isn't as good as most of the other varieties I've grown. They haven't cropped particularly well either, no better than Moneymaker (which I've only grown because I was given the plants) and not as well as Alicante.
I think that the seeds are too expensive (as are all F1 hybrids in my opinion) so I'm going to try and overwinter some sideshoots on an east facing windowsill see if I can get some plants to try again next year.
Seems strange, Dobies and Suttons are the same company, why would they charge differently for seeds probably from the same source?
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Same parent company, but they are run as individual companies so compete with each other.
My sideshoots have roots now, so I can pot them up and hope my sporadic care is sufficient to get plants for next year.
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My outdoor Crimson Crush are still battling away against LB and there are still lots of fruit developing. They certainly do have some resistance and perhaps in an area that isn't so prone as here they would do better. It's a shame that although they are able to grow through the disease, fruits are affected and really find it annoying to pick them and then find they going brown and horrid in a few days.
Taste has improved with the season and they are producing well as an outdoor variety. I've been slack on keeping them pruned and they are growing very much as a bush, perhaps with better ventilation and a few less leaves they would have done better. They certainly aren't the blight proof tomato that the blurb claimed, so bad on them for making them out to be. I certainly wouldn't buy plants again and feel cheated. But knowing now they are somewhat resistant and a good cropping outdoor variety, I have bought seeds to grow next year. I've also saved seeds and I'll likely sow some next year.
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That's a shame. Mine is still showing no blight on the tomatoes, though there is a touch of it on the stems. There is a huge amount of blight on my site and the plants are just being left, unfortunately.
My sideshoots are showing signs of blight. I am not sure whether keeping them going is a good thing. Last thing I want to do is to transfer it onto my seedlings or spuds next year.
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Side shoots on the plants or ones you have taken for cuttings?
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I've wondered if growing resistant potato varieties such as Sarpo Mira might lead to infecting other plants. But as far as I understand from the bits I've read, the resistant plant starts to block blight and although leaves may start to show some signs of infection, it is prevented from advancing further or making spores, thus preventing it spreading further a field. I think this would be the same for Crimson Crush, though I'm not sure.
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My three Crimson Crush plants are also still cropping well and show no sign of blight yet even though all my other outdoor tomatoes succumbed more than a week ago. Unfortunately, the side shoot I had growing outdoors got blight a few days ago and was speedily consigned to the bin. Three small side shoot plants in my mini greenhouse are still okay. The shoots were just stuck into the soil of other tomato plants in the g.h. so they have been receiving the same treatment all summer. Once the tomatoes have finished cropping I can plant up the C.C. in suitable pots and try to over-winter them
Tricia :wave:.
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Side shoots on the plants or ones you have taken for cuttings?
Sideshoots taken for cuttings. I will see if there are any more on the original plant, but also I'll keep an eye on the others and probably bin the worst.
The other info you posted is really handy, thank you. I was thinking that's next year's toms jiggered.
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Glad your plants have done well for you and hope you have success with the cuttings Tricia, I've no space for more cuttings or I might be tempted.
Sparrow, you could always try topping or tailing depending on where the signs of blight are and how big your side shoots are? Either let the cutting reshoot at a lower level leaf joint or restrike the top of the cutting. Alternatively let your cuttings grow on, and take further cuttings later on and ditch the older ones with any possible lasting spores.
If I'm unsure about an infected looking spot on potato leaves, I pick the suspect, wet it and seal it in a plastic bag for 24 hrs in a warmish place, it brings on LB symptoms no end. Using a clear plastic bag means you can view without spreading spores about and easily dispose of the sealed bag. I'd think the same would work for a tomato leaf, might need longer incubating as it's resistant variety. But it's possibly a way to check the health of your overwintered plant before you start your other ones in the spring.
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still no blight here on the sunshine coast we had a blind taste test at the week end my T&M 2016 experimental came out tops but in my opinion they all tasted winter shop bought but they hold well on the plant and still firm even when signal red so with tweaking they could do well
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Thank you, thank you, thank you! :)
Will try both methods and see how I get on.
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Will try both methods and see how I get on.
Let us know how they do.
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still no blight here on the sunshine coast we had a blind taste test at the week end my T&M 2016 experimental came out tops but in my opinion they all tasted winter shop bought but they hold well on the plant and still firm even when signal red so with tweaking they could do well
Shame the taste isn't there. It's not been the best year for testing LB for many.
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I have been growing Crimson Crush from plants got from Suttons when they gave them away for just postage. They seem to be blight free but I would never grow them again , the taste is not good.