Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => The Basics => Topic started by: nodig on June 01, 2018, 11:20:30
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Well here is my new idea for raising cultivation levels on allotments and getting rid of the non cultivators. Lets assume that the standard plot currently rents out at £50 year and there are 100 plot holders - 50 of the plots are v good, 25 good, 20 poor and 5 rubbish. Standard practice would be to send a warning letter to the 5 rubbish ones and probably evict 3 of them, the other 2 avoiding eviction by managing to raise their plot to a poor standard.
Now the new system
Raise the rent to £100 per year but with a 50% discount if your plot is kept to a v good standard, 40% if kept to a good standard, and no discount for poor standard allotments. New plot holders taking on poor plots would get 50% discount the first year.
I suspect there would be quite a turnover of plotholders in the first few years, and then it would settle down.
Who agrees?
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Good idea, even though my plot is rubbish at present due to ill health, but people should give it back to the Council if they can't cope with it, but there are loads of overgrown plots at my site so don't fell too guilty.
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I like it too👍🏻👍🏻We have too many overgrown and unproductive plots on our site. This would work well. I especially like the 50 % discount idea!
Duke
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We have too many overgrown and unproductive plots on our site too ... because there are too many vacant plots ... I doubt raising the price would help get new people in! Any new people who pay for one increases the chance that they will at least do something and are welcomed with open arms. Our plots are just £25 a year for a full one ... if you're just west of Oxford and are not scared of brambles please apply!
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In London we dont have an issue with lack of demand for plots - in fact some of the waiting lists are ridiculous. In Lewisham you might wait ten years for a plot.
The idea though has some merit although it could bring the committee into more dispute with members when deciding on who gets a rebate and who doesn't - there might have to be some arbitration.
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An excellent idea in theory.
And, sadly, a recipe for generating more arguments and disputes than you could begin to imagine.
Instead of just a few disputes with the worst kept plots, you now have scope for almost everyone to argue their plot should be rated at a higher level. And a strong financial incentive for doing so.
Imagine it. Mine is better than his so why do I only get good when he got very good. Mine should not be rated poor the committee is biased against me. That committee member keeps a scruffy plot but got rated very good. I'd had flu when the inspection was done and my plot had got untidy but is usually much better, so I'm being penalized for being unwell.
Sorry I just don't think the idea would work in practice.
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True Beersmith, but of course a few new enforcement rules could reduce friction to a minimum. One rule could be that if you dispute your allocated classification, you automatically get a 1 month notice to vacate your plot if your appeal fails. The upside to this is that a new plot holder would inherit a good plot and the site will have got rid of tenant who thinks he runs the site. As I said the first few years will be lively, but then it would all settle down.
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As for committee members abusing the system by claiming the full rebate when not deserved, surely this indicates that
a change in site management not the rules is needed.
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The idea is a good one, but plotholders should be allowed to choose their annual date (within the growing season) to suit their "style", but not change it (so they can't just choose to have it if they think it's looking good one week - say because they'd borrowed a strimmer).
My reason for saying this is that the usual date for plot checks an my site is in March - that clashes badly with my style - I mainly grow what is expensive in the shops and especially what you can't buy for love or money (like seasoning chillies - even medium ones are hard to source reliably, also flavour tomatoes like Sungold and Gardeners Delight, Blue Banana squash for making better coleslaw in winter etc. etc. etc.). Very much flavour quality over quantity, size, uniformity and boring predictability (ie. nothing that would win a prize at an English show).
This means my plot starts looking cultivated in June (a struggle this "Year without a Spring" that stunted my seedlings, immediately followed by a "Blitzkrieg Summer" that tried to kill the struggling mites with too much sun).
But nobody can see the hundreds of seedlings I have at home in March, about half under LEDs.
So even in a good year my plot looks empty in March - apart from the land cress that I use as a cover crop/green manure (and the ignorant think that's weeds - the assessors from our council are generally the ones that do those horrible municipal flowerbeds - talk about a culture clash).
Diff'rent strokes - OK?
Cheers.
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Hang on ... did you just say "Blue Banana squash for making better coleslaw in winter" - how does that work? I love growing them - but no-one in my house eats them roasted or in stews ... do you just use it to replace the carrot.
I've also found the wonder of land cress as a green manure and it works brilliantly by the way.
Sorry if this is completely off topic!
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Hang on ... did you just say "Blue Banana squash for making better coleslaw in winter" - how does that work? I love growing them - but no-one in my house eats them roasted or in stews ... do you just use it to replace the carrot.
I've also found the wonder of land cress as a green manure and it works brilliantly by the way.
Sorry if this is completely off topic!
As the title of the thread is "Just for fun" can't see any need to apologise. :wave:
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Hang on ... did you just say "Blue Banana squash for making better coleslaw in winter" - how does that work? I love growing them - but no-one in my house eats them roasted or in stews ... do you just use it to replace the carrot.
I've also found the wonder of land cress as a green manure and it works brilliantly by the way.
Sorry if this is completely off topic!
Yes I replace the carrot with squash - I think it's better because the texture is more similar to the cabbage component - otherwise the carrot can be a bit like string. Obviously if you use tender young summer carrots that doesn't apply, but we find coleslaw more 'useful' in winter.
We often reverse the recipe to use more squash than cabbage - still just as good, we even occasionally use 100% squash and it's still worth eating.
We share your taste - we dislike cooked squash (or orange sweet potato for that matter) - raw is the only way to make squash taste as good as carrot.
The advantage of a long squash is that once cut, you have a better chance of getting to the end before the mould overtakes you.
Cheers.
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One rule could be that if you dispute your allocated classification, you automatically get a 1 month notice to vacate your plot if your appeal fails.
That seems incredibly harsh. I would venture it is actually unjust. You cannot reasonably punish someone for taking an entirely legitimate course of action. And is the aim really to secure more evictions and more empty plots? This sounds counterproductive to me.
It would discourage genuine appeals because of the fear of adverse consequences which surely cannot be in any way reasonable.
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Lots of reasons why plots become neglected...not just because of "cant be bothered". What about those who have had several years of activity and then have a temporary blip. Admittedly, there's nothing more disheartening than to see someone take on a good plot, not do anything with it, and within a few months it's become a wilderness. I would like to see some arrangement where each plot came (even if part of the rent) with a sufficient cover of plastic sheeting that would at least stop them going completely out of control. That way, the next plot worker would at least stand a better chance of making a go of it. It's a real turn-off to be presented with a new plot that is a jungle and which in itself is a reason why plots get abandoned in the first place.
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I would like to see some arrangement where each plot came (even if part of the rent) with a sufficient cover of plastic sheeting that would at least stop them going completely out of control.
This is a great idea, though the cost of professional grade membranes is very high - you would have to extract a deposit to be refunded when the new holder returns the membrane in good time and in a condition (poor/good/very good) comparable to how they got it.
Cheaper stuff could be left with the plot as a resource - but it degrades very quickly in UV and must be disposed at the first tear - before it turns to horrible flakes.
Horticultural paper is ridiculously expensive (for green wannabees?) and only lasts a season, not to mention that they use food extracts (!) to bind it.
Someone needs to put their thinking cap on to find an easy 'organic' DIY way to turn old newspapers into a 2cm -ish layer without blowing away.
That would make it possible to cover a whole plot in cheap tarp and protect it with a paper cover that would last up to a decade.
At the moment I protect my tarps with woodchip corralled by paper gabions round the edge (8-10cm thick newspaper wrapped with wire like a Xmas present, or a single tight wire loop over a stabilising layer of sticks/prunings) but that's just for between perennials, woodchip is too precious to cover an entire plot and gabions are too fiddly (I'm not sure a 2cm thick one would be stable enough).
Any ideas?
A couple of times I tried the old idea of putting down 1cm of overlapping newspaper and throwing a random assortment of prunings on top. It works surprisingly well and nothing blows away. But it means you have to clear a path before you can walk on it if eg. you want to plant through it and then tend the plants - pretty inconvenient and it also rots quickly from below (releasing the perennial weeds you are trying to stop) - but it might work better over tarp - I've never tried that, maybe I should if I can spare the space over couch grass - it works best in large square areas, pretty useless on raised beds.
Cheers.
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I'm a site rep and organised some help to clear and rotovate an overgrown/unlet plot a couple of years ago, covered it with bits of old/unwanted weed control fabric donated by various plot holders, and just grew some pumpkins on it.
This year the council sent a new tenant to look at it and he was over the moon to be starting on a plot that wasn't waist high in weeds. He's uncovering bits at a time, to fork it over and planting as he goes. Let's hope he stays keen :)
It's a shame the councils won't fork out for some Yuzet fabric now and again - it stops nuisance weed seeds blowing about, so keeping existing plotholders happy and really made the plot so much easier to let.
On our site the fabric does last a good few years without being covered.
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Simpler,
would be to allow existing plot holders to draw lots to get a 'free' year (May-October)* use of the vacant plots, possibly split if required. All rents/deposits to have been paid by March 31st.
Conditions would be that it is left "clear", and that there is to be no assumption of ongoing tenure.Only available to those who also pay for and maintain a plot to accepted standard. A deposit charged to incoming plotters, only refunded if committee is satisfied that the plot is vacated "clear". Retained deposits to be utilised to repair/re-instate plots.
*permitting maximum chance to let all plots; and allowing capacity for new plot holders to start a clean season with a clear plot, letting from 1st Dec, with sufficient "committee time " between.
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We have a lot of empty plots. So if you are West of Oxford by about 25 miles then please apply. Not much problem with brambles but stinging nettles, couch and various other grasses two metres high and lots of dandelions and thistles instead.
We are loosing so many we are worried the farmer will give up. Not so long ago we had a waiting list, and the price has not increased. So we are £45 for about 150-170 sq mts.
People do not seem to feed their land so they give up. Even though manure is free.
There are some nice well stocked plots with fruit etc.
So we do not want to put anyone off even if they are rubbish, though I wish they would not bring rubbish.
We had pigs at one stage, they clear plots in record time and eat the weeds so they do not return for some time.
We have loads of vacant plots. At one stage we had a waiting list. People come but do not feed their plots so in the end production tails off. Even though manure is free. £45 for 150-167 sq mts 25 miles west oxford no brambles.
At one stage we had pigs, they clear plots in record time. And when they leave everything grows like crazy.
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Wouldn't it be great to have a herd of pigs available to clear problem plots!
They could be owned by the borough, and even with transport costs and portable barriers it would make more money than most of the initiatives from the council - in fact they could replace the council and wear charming robes to brighten the site up.
Decisions based on augury of their movements (both kinds) couldn't be any worse than what comes from the current chamber, and they wouldn't spend so much time trying to fill their back pockets.
Cheers.
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I like your thoughts vinlander, but sadly the current state is that it costs more to feed the pigs than they are worth so they have gone.
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ancellsfarmer has come up with perhaps an even more radical solution to unkept plots than mine - that being dropping completely the idea rights to tenancy of the land replacing it with 1 year land 'lease', with each plot holder having to re-apply when their one year lease has expired. One slight problem with this is that the committee members would also have to re-apply every year so you would probably need an independent 'office' to deal with the paper work.
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I have been reading this thread with interest and have come to the conclusion that in the main it is "Privately owned Allotments" that are being discussed here and not "Local Council owned Allotments"
I have a "Council owned plot" and when a plot is taken on the Council send you a letter with a number of 'rules' on it. These are very basic rules where most of them are basically "Common Sense" and one of the rules is in regard to " Plot Tidyness"
So would it not be a simple matter for the owners to draw up a "Site Constitution " on a pro-forma with a few do's and dont's on it i.e. a list of basic rules and conditions.*
Then when a new tenant comes on board they are issued a copy of this pro-forma which they sign for, and a copy is given to the new tenant and the carbon copy is held by the secretary.
*If necessary these rules can be adjusted from time at a general meeting and all tenants would be given a copy of the new pro-forma.
This means that all tenants are similarly informed so they have no argument if they contravene a rule/s.
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ancellsfarmer has come up with perhaps an even more radical solution to unkept plots than mine - that being dropping completely the idea rights to tenancy of the land replacing it with 1 year land 'lease', with each plot holder having to re-apply when their one year lease has expired. One slight problem with this is that the committee members would also have to re-apply every year so you would probably need an independent 'office' to deal with the paper work.
Perhaps I have led you to this conclusion but my suggestion only intended to provide a scheme to utilise on a short period basis, the unlet plots (for which no rent had been received). A plot does not become "overgrown" in weeks, its a result of inadequate care for a season or more. It would be unreasonable to expect reclamation for a few months use. Established plots should permit ongoing cultivation of fruit and perennial crops, there was no thought that this should change. It could be thought that a general reduction in 'nasty weeds' in the entire site would also reduce 'rewilding'. This might involve the landowner contributing resources-such as pigs!. I do like pigs.
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I can assure you that a plot can become overgrown in weeks. It is truly amazing how fast the weeds grow.
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Annual , airborne, weed seeds may get a headstart ,but would be reasonable for the 'interim' tenant to control as part of maintenance. My scheme would be to remove all perennial nuisance weeds to beyond the boundary. This means couch, nettles, brambles, marestail,ground elder etc. Farmers and councils are generally licenced to apply suitable substances. Get rid of all those odd corners harbouring such, and ensure that any detected are removed beyond the plot. No mouldering compost with these in, take to the council greenwaste bins. Finished.
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Believe me ...they can become covered in perennial weeds in a couple of weeks if you live next door to a completely abandoned plot like I do. I had almost completely cleared my plot of nettle, creeping buttercup, horsetails, couch and was on top of the bindweed last year ... during the two months of snow and wet ground that meant I was unable to get in there and work the ground ... they had spread their roots under the fence and invaded more than 10 foot my side engulfing 2 raised beds with huge growth with the hot weather at the end of April. I couldn't believe how far the roots had traveled. I've had to completely dig the beds out again ... much more than a little bit of hoeing - there were tons of roots.
I find this intolerant attitude that permeates this forum a bit off-putting really, people have real lives, they get ill or can't cope for short periods of time for plenty of other reasons ... maybe in your easy-street urban allotments at full capacity with running water and a shop there's an argument for clamping down on people not looking after their plots properly, but maybe next time you fancy making blanket statements you think about others might be in completely different circumstances to yours.
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You must understand squeezyjohn that your neighbours weeds encroaching on your plot is just part of evryday life on allotment sites - just live with it I say.
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Even better have you offered to help him clear his plot of weeds, I am sure he would appreciate the help?
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As mentioned elsewhere my OH has taken on a new plot this year - on a self run council site. A well run one too.
When you take a plot on they will, if you like, plough it for you with a rather elderly but functional tractor. Natch we declined this offer and dug it over and we are glad we did as we have removed endless buckets of bind weed, couch grass etc. Still it is a nice idea and they plough some of the plots belonging to some of the more infirm members which is great for annual weed removal..