Allotments 4 All
Produce => Edible Plants => Topic started by: vegandog on March 22, 2011, 00:14:27
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Has anyone got any experienced of the three sister's form of cultivation?
It's a system that plants corn, beans and squash together - each benefiting from the other plant.
The beans grow up the stability of the corn and the squash along the ground beneath.
This is my first year on the allotment and wondered whether to try this system or stick to beanpoles?
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vegandog if you did forum search on the subject you find that three sister
really does not work on how we garden now. Since the method was designed for use with field corn for making meal,beans for drying and winter squash for storing.
If you use the method for sweet corn, climbing french beans or runner beans and summer squash. It will not really work for you.
here is some other threads that discusses this subject.
http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,55278.msg561798.html#msg561798
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I am going to grow a lot more squash this year, and I will be planting sweetcorn near the edge of the squash bed.
The sweetcorn will be well spaced out, so I will hand pollinate.
I will also try a few sunflowers in the middle of the bed and see if I can grow beans up these, but being on a very exposed site, I am not expecting success, but worth a go.
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Apologies for not searching first :-[
Seems like it's not really worth it. Thanks for the link.
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I feel that it does work. It is important to choose a small type of bean, I think runners for example would prove too heavy and pull the beans over.
If you have a large block of corn you need to be able to reach in to pick the beans so I only use the ones on the outside. I also plant the squash on the edges of the block.
I certainly plan to do it again for fifth year. I already have a bed prepared with spaces at each end for the squashes with the block for the corn in the middle. My lottie is on a very windy plot and the corn does a great job keeping the wind off the squashes.
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Welcome to A4A Vegandog...
I'd say it was worthwhile but... there are issues. If you want "SweetCorn" you need to be able to get at the corn to remove the cobs when they are ready. Traditionally it was for "meal" to make breads and so could be cropped at the end of the season. In the UK and with modern corns you need to use a smaller leaf squash. Again with the beans they were meant to be used dry so could be left to the end of the season, if you want to pick for "green" use you would be better with a dwarf variety.
The best combination I have had is with "Bloody Butcher" or "Hopi Blue" bread corns,Trail of Tears beans and any squash all left alone until the frosts are expected.. :)
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Apologies for not searching first :-[
Seems like it's not really worth it. Thanks for the link.
Actually I don't agree with just searching for old posts - thats what the likes of wikki et al are for. It may be that when someone asks the question this year that there are new posters around who have some valuable input which would have been missed if you'd just searched for, and read old posts.
I don't want to rant hut it does annoy me a little when someone asks a question and immediately someone else jumps in with a link to a previous discussion that went on a year or two back. Fair enough if there are currently two threads on the same issue etc.
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I also make sure that the beans do not wander and only climb up their own corn plant so do not produce links between plants. I also can recommend Cherokee Triail of Tears. Climbing peas can be good as well.
I agree with you raisedbedted for me part of the joy of this forum is that you feel that there are people out there helping you.
Yes the same topics come up but the answers are not always quite the same and when I was a newbie I remember being thrilled to feel that the replies were just for me and that I was 'talking' to people from all over the world. Information is important but the personal touch is great.
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I don't do the squash but always the beans - borlotti for drying. Best place for them.
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We grew 3 sisters in a raised bed at school for 2 years and found it was a good match for us as the corn and beans could look after themselves during the summer when we had restricted access. But that is not to say that the beans didn't get a bit unruly! Even though the corn was started off indoors and the beans sown direct, the beans always seemed to have an advantage over the corn.
Saddad, are the varieties of corn you mention suitable for eating off the cob or do you have another purpose in mind when you grow them?
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I stopped growing sweetcorn but I still plant French beans and squash in the same bed. I make it a very rich bed and I plant the beans on the outskirts of the squash so I can still pick them. It looks pretty anyway!! And they seem to thrive near each other.
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I now always grow sweetcorn and squash together, the benefit of doing this is mainly the squash meander around the sweetcorn stems and suppress weeds (as long as you choose a trailing variety, I have learned this the hard way of course!),. I get good sweetcorn this way and the squash look after themselves, but I make sure I put a cane to mark where the squash roots are so I can feed them every so often. I don't bother with the beans, I have never had a good crop when I tried that, but the 'two sisters' may be worth a go and make good use of your precious space.
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Hi vegandog and welcome to A4A :)
I tried 2 sisters last year, squash and corn. The corn was fabulous, my best attempt yet, they like it rich so I added manure to the area and I also mulched with grass later in the season to keep the ground moist. But my squash (Little Gem / Rollet) didn't do very well in there. I planted them in between the corn and think I might be better planting them on the outside, and maybe choosing another variety. I may try some beans this year, but will definitely pick a shelling bean (like a Borlotti or Cherokke Trail of Tears)
Anyway good luck, lots of great advice on here
1066 :)
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Hi Sue,
Saddad, are the varieties of corn you mention suitable for eating off the cob or do you have another purpose in mind when you grow them?
You can eat them off the cob, but they aren't particularly sweet, so you do need to eat them straight away. I use them for decoration more than anything else.. :-X
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The original three sisters system was based on tall corn varieties, and everything was cropped together at the end of the season. If you want sweet corn and green beans, then at the very least you'll be pulling the plants about a lot. You're also likely to be growing significantly smaller corn varieties. I underplant corn myself, and it works well.
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Thanks everyone for the kind welcome and excellent advice. I've been reading book after book after getting the allotment, but personal experience is really interesting. I've probably bored all my friends with allotment chat so hope you won't mind a newbie asking the obvious!
After reading this I think I'll try the corn and the squashes at the ends. It's all trial and error at this point.
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We have done this 3 years on the trot now and we find it does work
We block plant the corn, grow a drying bean up the corn and interplant around the outer corn plants courgettes, the reason we plant the courgettes amongst the outer 2 rows of corn is so we can get at the courgettes. We find this works really well and also space saving which is a benefit
K :)
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Thanks everyone for the kind welcome and excellent advice. I've been reading book after book after getting the allotment, but personal experience is really interesting. I've probably bored all my friends with allotment chat so hope you won't mind a newbie asking the obvious!
That's what we are here for ;D ;D ;D
think I might try LottieDolly's suggestion of courgettes and corn :)
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let us know how you get on 1066, it really is a logical way of doing it, i will also try pattypan amongst my corn this year ;D
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Is it a bush or a trailing courgette?
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will do Lottiedolly, bizarrely enough my courgettes didn't really flourish last year, not sure why?!
I grow the bush varieties, why / what do you have in mind Robert?
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acopy of my modernized three sisters diagram
(http://i745.photobucket.com/albums/xx97/plainleaf2/threesisters.gif)
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We use a mixture of yellow and green bush courgettes and I have even interplanted the outside row of the corn with lettuces as the corn was growing as you do give the corn a fair bit of space between each one ;D
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For those interested in taking old ways and using them now, this link should be good reading
http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/buffalo/garden/garden.html#XI
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Interesitng diagram Plainleaf but I rather thought that the corn needs to be in a block to aid fertilzation. For me each corn plant is planted with a bean/pea in the pot. It also needs a little stick for the bean/pea to grow up. In the end the corn grows quite fast but for a couple of weeks the bean can win the race. These are then planted out in a block. I normally do blocks of 12 plants (I sow about 16 seeds) and then leave a couple of weeks and do some more so I get corn/beans over a long period. This seems to be enough for the pollen to get all round and for me to reach in to pick the cobs and beans without treading on anything. I plant my plants about a 30 cm apart so the whole thing is four feet wide. The squashes go on the East side of the block where they bask in the morning sun but keep away from the prevailing West wind and well away from Mr Northwest Wind esq which is rather strong and cold here. So for me the corn is acting as a wind break and any cobs are a bonus.
The squash do not need a large space in the middle because they simply weave around the corn plants and trail round the place. Butternut for me are good because they do not have huge leaves. I think something like trompetto d'albenga my favourite squash would just climb up the corn and completely flatten it. Might put one in the Northeast corner to benefit from the shelter but give it a sturdy couple of cane to climb up.
Once the corn has finshed the squash continue to grow for sometime and are give some extra compost. By this time the runner beans are usually ready so I leave the beans to go to seed. It is great use of space because they can trail all over the corn. I think it is superb use of space. But is does like huge amounts of biomatter and feeding for the best results. I presume the indians had plenty of buffalo/horse and other manure.
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This is an interesting thread and thought-provoking for me. As on a previous post I have a new area about 10' x 10' I am going to mulch heavily with manure, cover with weed suppressant fabric, and plant with squash. I am now wondering about doing a three sisters.
I suppose I am most worried about competition and none of the plants doing as well as they would if planted conventionally. Plainleaf, your spacings for the corn and beans seem very tight to me? I usually put corn about 15" apart in a block.
Digeroo, your method of planting a bean in the corn pot is a good idea. Can i ask, are the beans for fresh beans or shelling? And if fresh, do you get a good crop? And where do your squash fit into the plan - in between the 4 x 4 squares of corn/beans?? And what do you do for feeding/watering?
Thanks for input, as I said, very interesting thread.
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Another point. What is all the talk (on the web when I googled it) about squash appreciating shade from corn?? Surely in our climate they need maximum sunshine?? Isn't this another reason why 3 sisters works best in hot countries, ie the US where it originated?
Thoughts from those who have tried it most appreciated.
:)
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Shade on the roots to retain moisture... not on the leaves! :)
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I always grow a shelling bean as it can dry on the corn stalks. I give the corn a good head start as the beans always catch up, keep a decent spacing between the corn, I did try a butternut squash a few years ago and it knocked over some of my corn, so I only use bush courgettes now. I also interplant the outer row of corn with a quick crop like lettuces, it does not seem to affect the corn, beans or squashes at all and I am terrible at the concept "if there is a gap, chuck something in it" the allotment can sometimes end up quite a mish mash but terribly productive :)
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will do Lottiedolly, bizarrely enough my courgettes didn't really flourish last year, not sure why?!
I grow the bush varieties, why / what do you have in mind Robert?
Trailing squashes live under the corn quite happily, though the fruit can knock corn over as it grows. I don't think that matters. I'm not sure how bush squash would do in the confined space.