Allotments 4 All
Produce => Edible Plants => Topic started by: owtfornowt on July 19, 2019, 14:05:10
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Hi everyone, I’m back after a long absence of illness. Does anyone have problems with their tomatoes growing like ferns I’ve heard it could be herbicide in the compost if so would it be best to throw them out or are they safe to eat.
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Who should we ALL complain to? locally, across the country, in fact everywhere I have been reading forums/blogs etc about dodgy compost and tomatoes. It looks like the fly boys have found another money spinner with the interest in grow your own food. Cheap shite from the tip bagged up as compost sold to the unwitting public at extortionate rates. It was my understanding that council compost had to pass a certain standard to be labelled compost, otherwise it was just soil conditioner. The compost bagging plant which bags this stuff up under different brand names must have been hoodwinked by fake certificates etc. Ripoff Britain again. PS looks like it is the Environment Agency to complain to but if you have time read this, seems it is voluntary. Be charged for dumping waste, But free if it is compost. http://www.qualitycompost.org.uk/upload/cqp_2012.pdf
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I have sent an email to the DoE. I urge everybody to do the same and let them know we are on to them. Next stop my MP.
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If you have a documentary evidence trail, ie the packaging bag, proof that the compost contained the (alleged) substance, such as a part used bag and preferably an unopened bag with the same batch code, and a receipt for the purchase, then the Trading Standards dept of your local authority (County council) should be willing and able to investigate, as the product is not of 'Merchantable quality' nor 'Fit for purpose'. Due to the nature of the marketplace, this tends to grow support within Trading Standards as there are only a few major producers who cover most of the marketplace.
Now if you can find a group of similarly affected souls, perhaps Allotment users with the same source, then it would also be substantial to urge the enquiry with the threat of , and actioned ,publicity.
Isolated complaints, which might reasonably be discounted because, for example, the user mixed product A with something else, or where the compost had since been watered from a dubious tank, or with a can, sometime used before, will generally not be pursued.
Please also allow for the fact that the source of contamination might be in the plant supply chain, from agricultural or other spray users, and ,even, from the water mains supply.
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Have a very close look at the growth and take photographs. Look on line for images of plants being damaged by Aminopyralid.
This herbicide caused untold trouble several years ago when it got into compost in many parts of the country mainly through stable bedding that got mixed up with horse manure.
It is back being used in a product called astroKERB for use on oilseed rape. The manufacturer recommends care not to use rape straw as bedding but inevitably it will happen as it is available and cheap.
If you think Aminopyralid is the cause contact DOW chemicals and report your concerns.
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Have a very close look at the growth and take photographs. Look on line for images of plants being damaged by Aminopyralid.
This herbicide caused untold trouble several years ago when it got into compost in many parts of the country mainly through stable bedding that got mixed up with horse manure.
It is back being used in a product called astroKERB for use on oilseed rape. The manufacturer recommends care not to use rape straw as bedding but inevitably it will happen as it is available and cheap.
If you think Aminopyralid is the cause contact DOW chemicals and report your concerns.
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Thank you all for those well informed responses I have sent an email to my MP. I’m now going to contact DOW chemicals to see what effect it could have on the eating quality of the tomatoes and other veg infected with this compost. Would it be incriminating to mention the large diy store and the 125 litre bales of compost involved. Once again thanks for the response.
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Thank you all for those well informed responses I have sent an email to my MP. I’m now going to contact DOW chemicals to see what effect it could have on the eating quality of the tomatoes and other veg infected with this compost. Would it be incriminating to mention the large diy store and the 125 litre bales of compost involved. Once again thanks for the response.
Definitely send a complaint to the Chief Executive of the retailer who supplied you, copy to the Store Manager. See the post earlier for other agencies, copies to all. No doubt we all would be interested in the outcome.Suggest any other affected members PM you, compare notes etc. Its the industry who need to clean up their act, them knowing that 'thousands' of consumers have had problems , are intercommunicating and are most likely to not purchase the product(s) should concentrate minds.
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Definitely send a complaint to the Chief Executive of the retailer who supplied you,
All you will get is the stock answer to any complaint now 'We sell X amount every year and most of our customers are satisfied' MP's are the way to go and the DoE. Like you say if there is enough of us somebody is going to take notice and see there is something wrong. I don't know if this stuff is used enough commercially in growing the nations crops, we will need every spud and tomato we can get if Boris has his way.
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Definitely send a complaint to the Chief Executive of the retailer who supplied you,
All you will get is the stock answer to any complaint now 'We sell X amount every year and most of our customers are satisfied' MP's are the way to go and the DoE. Like you say if there is enough of us somebody is going to take notice and see there is something wrong. I don't know if this stuff is used enough commercially in growing the nations crops, we will need every spud and tomato we can get if Boris has his way.
Very similar herbicides to Aminopyralid are commonly found in lawn treatments. Most often clopyralid. So it is being sprinkled with gay abandon on lawns all over country.Now what does any environmentally responsible gardener do after cutting his lawn? Yes of course, he puts the grass cuttings into his green waste recycling bin. It seems the correct thing to do. Off it goes to the local government composting plant where it gets into the composting cycle. And over time it will degrade and eventually become harmless. But all the evidence points to the breakdown taking a long long time. Ample time it seems to end up in commercial products and ruining your tomatoes.
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Well it’s done with now I wasn’t taking the risk and eating any I destroyed them all this morning. Once again thanks for all the replies.
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Just on the off chance I have informed BBC Watchdog that it might be something they would look into. If a few others want to chip in it might bring something to light.
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Good thinking Ace. I also go on to the Charles Downing ‘no dig’ forum and he is trying to get everyone to complain and said that Sarah Raven has also been affected. If ‘big names’ also make a fuss maybe something will happen
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I agree with most of what has been said above but sadly, in this case, I see no point of me following the good advice from above, for the simple reason, I can't prove if my problems are coming from either the compost (Clover) or the layer of stable manure I placed in the bottom of my growing rings! In fact, having read the above it could potentially be both!
I am not surprised that this has happened for example; when I started growing I was always told " never put diseased or suspect materials in your compost heap"! Always take them to the tip" which I did and still generally do!
Nowadays I see the council tip as a giant compost heap full of "dodgy materials" that are being 'recycled' to save the council (and others)money.
Regarding my stable manure, I don't particularly blame the stable owners as they are potentially buying in 'silage & bedding' not knowing if it is contaminated or not!
The farmers (as I understand it) are supposed to use treated materials only on their own land, and if they should sell it on they should advise the buyer buying these materials, that the products they are buying have been treated with weedkiller!
I have asked the stable owner where we get our horse muck from if he has been advised and he hasn't. In fact, he was not even aware of the 'aminopyralid' situation in the first place!
Been an interesting thread this! :thumbsup:
ps. Glad to be back I have been without an internet connection for the last 6 days so have been unable to put in my 'tuppence ha'porth'
Been in touch with my 'Internet Provider' to see how I will be reimbursed for this inconvenience and they offered me £2.
Saw no point in getting at the 'call-centre' girl so it looks like I am going to have to have a go at some more 'money-grabbers' :BangHead:
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I had a similar problem a few years back with my tomatoes and was sure it was due to a couple of bags of compost bought from one of the major national garden chains. It was their own brand of compost and it looked exactly like aminopyralid damage.
The trouble is one is never sure what goes into compost nowadays. There is so much recycled material added now - which is fine provided it is properly sourced to ensure it is aminopyralid free and sieved to remove rubbish (I have found an amazing array of bits in some compost!). I suspect many places selling it go for the cheapest wholesale price.
As a result I only use brands I trust whatever the price.
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We was having a discussion in the pub yesterday, the subject came around to my allotment (in the hope of shifting some courgettes :drunken_smilie:) I was talking about the crap compost that was about and a holiday maker came over and told us he works a shredder on a tip. Don't put it on your garden he said, they have heaps of the stuff that is barren and weed free where he works, nothing will grow in it. Somebody carts it all away every year and he thinks it goes into making compost. He also said that when a ship lost its cargo of treated timber it was all brought to the tip for shredding and added to the pile. (apart from his new lean to). It seems to me that what started out as a good idea in recycling and getting us peat free has all gone drastically wrong and we have got the shite end of the stick.
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I am making all my own compost now. I used to sell the Petersfield peat free compost and other good quality composts from the container on the site.
So to avoid buying rubbish in yet more plastic bags this year I have made my own.
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How do you make enough!
I don't have an issue with shop bought compost (yet!) but this year I bought in 7 x 120lt bags of J Arthur Bowers Multi-Purpose - mainly because someone posted here that it was going for a fiver each.
I also had a full compost bin, bought a load of coir and a couple of other smaller bags earlier in the season.
So maybe I used 1000lt of compost this year and I have just run out. How can you make enough?
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From weeds and veg peelings and all the cabbage stalks, bean vines etc I have two heaps both about 4 cubic metres. I use one of these a year while the other is working it's magic. I reckon with half a dozen bags of loam and sharp sand I shall have enough of the bulky stuff. The usual hoof and horn, lime and bone meal should make it grow stuff. I know it is extra work but a morning on my big riddle gives me enough for a few weeks. Price? I don't really know but I do know where it came from. A few years ago I used to get soil conditioner from the tip at £12 a ton and it worked as a mulch and broke up the clay when dug in later. That was when it was composted proper at the tip. Not now though.
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"...we have got the shite end of the stick." That was literally true of some I bought a few years back. When the Focus DIY chain closed down I bought several bags of their compost cheaply. When opened, all the bags stank strongly of something that a dog had recently got rid of. Never again! Now I am lucky enough to have access to large quantities of cow manure, some goes into my compost heaps and the rest is dug into my veg beds. The compost heaps give me all the compost I need for all purposes.
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Now I am lucky enough to have access to large quantities of cow manure
Don't want to scaremonger but from my experience this type of manure is highly prone to containing aminopropylid. Farmers tend to use this weed killer on grazing land to kill broad leaf plants as it is safe for grazing animals. The problem arises when the animals excrete the faeces,I.e. The stuff you might be using!
By law farmers are supposed to tell any third parties he has used the weedkiller on his land before he may pass the manure on!
For peace of mind it you might be best advised to ask him the question " has he or has he not used aminopyralid weedkiller on his grazing land"?
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Now I am lucky enough to have access to large quantities of cow manure
Don't want to scaremonger but from my experience this type of manure is highly prone to containing aminopropylid. Farmers tend to use this weed killer on grazing land to kill broad leaf plants as it is safe for grazing animals. The problem arises when the animals excrete the faeces,I.e. The stuff you might be using!
By law farmers are supposed to tell any third parties he has used the weedkiller on his land before he may pass the manure on!
For peace of mind it you might be best advised to ask him the question " has he or has he not used aminopyralid weedkiller on his grazing land"?
No problems there. I was put onto the muck supply by a neighbour who's been using it for years without any adverse effect.
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BN- Do you mean how do I get enough raw materials or how do I actually make enough. The former is easy as I have so many compost bins, the later is a bit more of a problem because I only sterilise a small quantity at the time. This year was an experiment and I didn't know if it would work but so far so good.
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Basically how do you get enough raw materials!
I make great big manure heaps over winter but they are for adding to the plot, earthing up, conditioning the clay soil. I add leaves and hops and then use it as a mulch.
All the home stuff - veg peelings, weeds and the like goes into two big bins. I still have to buy 100s liters of compost!
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In terms of compost quality and safety I tend to stick to certain brands that have given me good results over the last year or two. They are not necessarily some of the big name brands and include a local garden centre chain own brand.
If buy it from a garden centre that actually grows its own plants I ask them what compost they use and , if I can, buy that brand.
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I'm still struggling to work out where it is all going wrong.
Given the correct approach almost any organic matter can be composted. With enough heat and active bacteria it can be reduced to an inert sweet smelling product. Bones, meat, horse, cattle and sheep manure, food and vegetable waste of all kinds both cooked and raw.
On the Lottie few of us can compost with that level of efficiency. Instead we have time. My compost heaps based on nothing other than a mix of vegetable and brown waste smell pretty dreadful when "fresh". But as we all know they will in time produce a sweet crumbly compost.
Clearly we don't need contamination with plastics, wire, rubble and other detritus but there is absolutely no need for the products we buy to be rancid. Even starting with the most unpromising materials compost should not be sold until reduced to a pleasant and safe meterial.
Perhaps the issue is TIME. If the processors will not allow long enough for a proper composting process, the time available for herbicides like Aminopyralid to break down is also reduced.
Maybe if we had a complete boycott for one month someone might pay attention!
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Perhaps the issue is TIME. If the processors will not allow long enough for a proper composting process, the time available for herbicides like Aminopyralid to break down is also reduced.
I seem to recall reading somewhere that from someone throwing stuff in the council skips to buying a bag of the recycled compost made from it is "6week"
OK they have a bl**dy big pile of material to handle meaning it will heat up much faster than my little daleks. Add to that they have excavators to regularly turn it over, so yes! They have the facilities to make it compost faster than we can but six weeks!!! If that is true it is no wonder we are getting "dodgy compost"
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There is a certification process for composted waste, I think the certificate just states that it is no longer waste and does not need to be charged as such for disposal. I doubt that the 'compost' is tested for viability. this is the scheme http://www.qualitycompost.org.uk/ I do not know if it is compulsory and even if it is I expect only a select sample is sent for testing. Contractors handle waste now and it is big business usually tendered for. As with every other service that is contracted out corners are cut to make it pay. Since councils and services have had to put out their work for tender, stocks and shares in producing brown envelopes have risen sharply.
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Six rabbits produce a good supply of brown stuff for the compost, but over the years I have taken other people's grass clippings and had waste from a greengrocer as well as stuff from keeping communal areas I kept tidy when I was secretary.
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Big letter from the House of Commons filled with pamphlets and bumph. What it all boils down to it is our own fault. On herbicides 'It is Illegal not to follow the instructions on the label' Which first cutting should be left on the lawn the next 3 cuttings should be well composted for at least 9 months, Do not dispose of the grass cuttings via council composting schemes. Who ever is going to police that. It is interesting to note that the RHS has not found that herbicide in composted materials to be a problem, but I expect that comes from their members that home compost properly.