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Produce => Edible Plants => Topic started by: ceres on June 04, 2008, 21:18:36

Title: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on June 04, 2008, 21:18:36
A chap on our site sent the RHS photgraphs of a problem with his potatoes.  They have replied that the damage is typical of that from hormonal weedkiller from contaminated manure.  I've been watching my spuds for a couple of weeks now and at first I thought they had got a little frosted but hearing today's news, I've realised I've got the same problem.  And so has everyone else around me who has manured overwinter.  It's not yet conclusive that only folks who have manured have got the problem, it's a big site (over 200 plots) so it will take a while to get round everyone, but it's not looking good.  There's no-one yet who didn't manure with the problem.

We have our manure delivered by a farmer who stores the stuff in his fields until it's partially rotted down then he delivers it.  I'd say around a third of the plots have had his manure.  No more deliveries are being allowed until we know what is causing it.  One of my neighbours dug up a whole bed of his potatoes today.  Apart from the obvious top damage, there are no potatoes on the roots, just the seed potato.

My bed with ultra, first and second earlies is completely affected, not one healthy plant.  I have one row of second earlies in a bed with the early maincrops and a couple of the second earlies have been hit.  I have a third bed of late maincrops and again a couple have been affected.  My two lots of container-grown are fine (no manure).

Some plants are being taken down to Wisley on Friday to see if they can shed any more light before we go and knee-cap the farmer and we have unused manure which might need to be tested if Wisley confirms the diagnosis.  The other possibility is a virus, so I wondered if anybody here has seen this before.

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The plants look like they have bolted because the leaves are small and crinkled up.

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I dug up this Swift today.  It was the strongest one in the row but only about 9" high.  It was planted on 28 Feb into pre-warmed soil.  Apart from the seed potato it has 2 tiny embryo potatoes.  And it smelt a bit unpleasant.

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Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: cambourne7 on June 04, 2008, 21:38:47
Oh gosh honey thats bad, do you have to distroy the soil??
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: beanie3 on June 04, 2008, 21:41:07
I cant shed any light - but that is really bad news......i woud be devasted.  keep us informed on what wisley say.

How many potted potatoes have you got?
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on June 04, 2008, 22:12:13
Cambourne,
It's hard to say what we might have to do.  If it's a herbicide we would need to know what it was and how long it stays in the soil.  If it's a virus, Wisley hopefully could advise how best to deal with it.

Beanie
I have an incinerator bin and a compost bag with I think 4 or 5 seed potatoes in each.  not much to show for having planted 70.

Thanks both for the concern, we're all a bit shell-shocked!
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: cambourne7 on June 04, 2008, 22:16:10
might be worth checking what else might be affected in this growing season.

Hugs ceres   :-*
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: star on June 04, 2008, 22:20:15
Oh how awful for you all, lets hope its just this season thats affected.

As Cam says, keep an eye open for anything else that might suffer similar effects. Sincerely hope you find nothing else.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on June 04, 2008, 22:30:40
The neighbour who dug up his potatoes reckons his tomatoes have it too.  And the email from Wisley mentioned rasps as being particularly vulnerable, which I didn't really understand.

I don't want to leap to any conclusions but when you look at things that aren't doing well, you start wondering.  I have 10 asparagus crowns that I started from seed 2 years ago and 3 haven't come through this year - they had a thick mulch of manure.  And I haven't managed to grow a broad bean more than 6" high - they had manure dug in.  Probably co-incidence.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Sinbad7 on June 04, 2008, 22:38:37
Hi ceres,

I am so sorry for you and would be devasted if it happened to my one bed let alone all the pots you have planted.

What I don't understand is if it is weedkiller as the RHS suggest how come they grew so well in the first place, one would think they wouldn't even have grown.

Good luck to whoever goes to Wisley on Friday and they find out for sure what has caused it.

Sinbad
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: tonybloke on June 04, 2008, 22:41:29
it pays to compost manure for a year before incorporating it, this lets nutrient levels stabilise and poisons to degrade. Sorry to hear about your crop disasters, it may be viral, spuds and toms from same family, hope news from rhs is positive, rgds, tony
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Suzanne on June 04, 2008, 23:14:44
Hope it turns out to be something that is both short-lived and treatable.

I hate mysteries like this, I had trouble with seedlings and other things I potted on this year with them dying back quickly or looking like they had leaf chlorosis. After thinking it was all sorts like damping off etc I finally had the sense to check the potting compost I had bought - pH was 5 which not a lot of veg plants like. I was able to change the compost and things okay now. I am not sure how I would cope if the soil was affected. But may be a point to check pH if it hasn't already been done - espcially as you mentioned an unpleasant smell which could be due to acidic conditions??
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on June 04, 2008, 23:32:21
I don't know either sinbad.  I'm only guessing that if it's some kind of hormonal weedkiller, the plant maybe has to absorb enough to do the damage rather than the kind that kills on contact?

I'm not sure I'll ever dare use manure again, tonybloke!  I think on balance viral would be a better answer for us.

That's a great suggestion Suzanne.  I think my kit is in the shed so I'll do it tomorrow.  It's always been 7.0 before so this will be interesting.

Thanks all!
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Amazin on June 05, 2008, 00:19:00
ceres, I don't know if this is any help, but it could be a condition called Chickens and Hens caused by a nematode in your soil called Trichodorus:

http://www.sac.ac.uk/mainrep/pdfs/tn603soilnematodes.pdf

(check out Fig 1 for a pic).

Hope you don't mind this suggestion, it's just that someone I know who worked on a farm in Scotland had a very similar experience and told me it was diagnosed as Chickens and Hens. I don't know how it was treated or what the outcome was though, I'm sorry to say.

Sincere best wishes for a speedy remedy and future success.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Trevor_D on June 05, 2008, 07:31:11
We had exactly this problem on our site this time last year. (I thought it was a virus and posted some photographs in the Pests & Diseases section if you want to compare.)

Like you, we contacted the RHS, who diagnosed hormone weed killer damage. We also sent the photos to DEFRA, who contacted us and sent someone to look at the site. He spent nearly an hour going over all possibilities and stated categorically that it was hormone weed killer damage. The only source on-site was the manure from our stables; he spoke to the owner who told him that the hay the horses used didn't have weed-killer on it, and that they didn't use it themselves. But, as a precaution, he suggested composting all manure before use.

But we have had a recurrence this year - not as bad yet. It's patchy, and attacks potatoes, tomatoes, broad beans & peas. We were advised - and have found this to be so - that if you treat the plants well (water, feed, etc) & spray if necessary, then they sort of recover.

I have reported this year's outbreak to DEFRA. I strongly suggest you do the same. Interestingly, the weather conditions this year were the same as last year, ie. a strong wind coming from the continent. I think it may not originate on-site, but could be wind-borne. (Last year we discovered quite a few other occurences, both locally and over other parts of the south.)

I also referred DEFRA to this Forum, so if anyone else has had similar problems, please report them.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on June 05, 2008, 08:51:34
Amazin, many thanks for that.  Of course, I don't mind!  Any and all suggestions/ideas/solutions are very gratefully received.  I'm going to print it off and take it over to check in detail.

Trevor, thank you so much!  You're in north-west London, I'm in south-west London - relevant?  Were you advised that the crops are OK to eat - Wisley have said that they couldn't guarantee that there wouldn't be traces of the agent in crops.  I realise that's probably a bit of backside covering on their part but it does leave an uneasy feeling.

Also when you say water, feed and spray - spray with what?

Did you carry on using manure but composting it or did you stop using it alltogether but you still have the problem?

Sorry, so many questions!  I'm certainly going to contact DEFRA as you suggest.  I'll go and find you previous posts in the archive now.  Many, many thanks!




Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Trevor_D on June 05, 2008, 09:31:25
We sprayed as for blight. (Some of us had already done that before DEFRA arrived, and it seemed to put it 'on hold'.) And a foliar feed seemed to work.

As for eating the crops, the potatoes were fine. (I'm still here, a year down the line!) But the tomatoes & beans produced poorly anyway. And then the tomatoes were hit by early blight, so those plants that were already weak from the weedkiller damage got hit badly. But the rest of the plants - after repeated sprayings - cropped OK.

Incidentally, I never manure potatoes, but mine were still affected. (But not as badly as other folk who do manure.)

We still use stable manure, but try to go for the well-rotted stuff and leave (or compost) the strawy stuff from the outside. (Having said that, we mulched our strawberries with some of it yesterday.)

Two other things:

a) Our GH tomatoes were also affected, especially the plants near the open door. They were planted in commercial potting compost/growbag soil.

b) A few weeks back we could smell something in the air, which was reported in the press as the smell of fertilizer spread on the fields in Holland, or thereabouts.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on June 05, 2008, 10:15:35
Thanks Trevor.  I've just sent the pictures off to DEFRA.

Curious that spraying for blight puts a bit of a hold on the damage.  I wonder if there's more than one thing going on - the weedkiller weakens the plant enough to let opportunistic disease/insect infestation take hold.  I've noticed that the damaged potatoes have far more slug damage on them - one or two plants were stripped right down to just the leaf veins.

As this year is shaping up to be another blight year anyway, spraying now makes sense.  I usually only spray the toms as our potatoes seem to escape it but I'd better get cracking on them and start feeding too.

The plants affected at the door of your greenhouse must confirm an airborne problem surely?  I wonder if there are any outbreaks south and east of us.  Good reason for reporting these things to DEFRA - they're the only people likely to see the whole picture.  I suppose with the scale of growing in Holland and with the right weather conditions, it's entirely conceivable that spraying from aircraft might end up here.  Sheesh!  As if it wasn't hard enough already!  If you think of anything else, please keep it coming!



Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Barnowl on June 05, 2008, 10:25:30
I'm North East of you but have been away and haven't been up to the allotment for over a week. Heading there tonight, will report back if anything strange. We normally only use composted manure but I did get one bag of organic mature from a GC for the spud bed last autumn.

To add to our normal worries,  Blightwatch have just emailed me to say that SW13 and SW15 are having a full Smith period. Haven't tried it before but I know I've some Bordeaux mixture somewhere and think I'd better dig it out.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on June 05, 2008, 10:37:34
I was just about to pm you and isleworthtw7.  Great minds!  I sincerely hope your site doesn't have it.  Do let us know.

The full Smith alerts have been coming thick and fast here too - get that bordeaux out!
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Trevor_D on June 05, 2008, 10:45:12
I got my warning from Blightwatch yesterday afternoon, so we went up & sprayed with a slightly dilute mix of copper fungicide.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Garjan on June 05, 2008, 10:47:56
Very sorry to hear about this problem. I already get angry with the OH when he is not handling the seedlings as I want him to.

This is an interesting thread for my (Dutch) government, though.
I printed it and will send it to our department of agriculture and to the University that specialises in agriculture and food quality.

Keep us posted, as I'm eager to know whether our agricultural industrial complex is causing transnational problems. Outraged if it does!
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on June 05, 2008, 10:58:06
Hi garjan
It would be great to get your agriculture department's take on this.  Certainly don't want to falsely accuse our Dutch friends and start an international incident!  Just thinking out loud and wondering about commercial spraying in Kent, much closer to home and from the right direction.

Occasionally there is a mention on weather forecasts here that dust is being deposited in this area from North Africa and you can indeed see it on cars parked outside.  So I suppose if heavy dust particles can come all that way who knows what else comes from near and far?
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Melbourne12 on June 05, 2008, 12:20:59
This is a very interesting thread.  One thing that I do know is that hormonal weedkillers don’t harm humans, so your crops will be safe to eat.  Their action is confined to plant hormones.

The rumours that such herbicides are harmful seem to have originated in the military use of defoliants, which were contaminated with dioxins.  It was the dioxins that did the damage.

I’d also thought that these weedkillers decayed very quickly in soil.  Most do, but apparently not all.  Several can last for months, and one, Clopyralid, is VERY persistent.  This is informative: http://cahenews.wsu.edu/clopyralid.htm

I’d be very surprised if the problems reported on this thread turned out to be airborne, though.  Looking up the profiles, our allotment must be within a mile of Trevor_D’s.  We suffered no such problems with potatoes, tomatoes, peas or beans last year.  And in spite of the periods of easterly wind that theoretically could have brought contamination from the Netherlands or northern France, we’ve seen no problems this year either.  Indeed our peas and broad beans are looking particularly healthy!
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: innocenti on June 05, 2008, 12:30:22
Several fellow plot holders here in Norwich are experiencing a similar problem, we also suspect it is manure that is to blame. So far only plots that used manure from the same source are affected.
 :-\
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: beanie3 on June 05, 2008, 22:55:59
Hi innocenti - can i ask where/whom you got your manure from - i am in the Norwich area.....

This is blooming awful - everyones hard work down the drain........


Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on June 05, 2008, 23:27:08
Thanks Melbourne, more pieces of the jigsaw.  I've spent some time googling tonight and found all the stuff on dioxins, Agent Orange, the Seveso incident.  Scary stuff but thankfully far removed from modern hormone weedkillers.  It's good to know that they aren't harmful to crops and we can eat the produce safely, assuming we can produce any that is!  That's one of our burning questions answered.

It now appears our damage is only to those plots that had manure and from googling it seems that contamination of of manure in this way is not that uncommon.  The fields that produce the straw that goes on the stable floor are sprayed with this stuff to take out broad-leaved weeds.  It's just a bit concerning that the straw is then harvested, stored, used, partially composted yet the weedkiller is still so active.  I've found that there are two main types of weedkiller used in the UK but haven't yet discovered how long each remains in the soil.  That's our other burning question, IF we can find out which weedkiller we're dealing with.

I haven't heard back from DEFRA yet.

Suzanne, did a ph test today, still a perfect 7!  Thanks, it was worth checking though, the manure could have been contaminated with who knows what.

Amazin, I took the nematode paper today and compared the trichodorus example, but we don't appear to have the thickening of the roots which actually look under-developed.  Good call though, thanks for remembering and passing it on.

innocenti, I'm really sorry to hear you've got it too.  I wouldn't wish this on anyone.

beanie, fingers crossed your manure comes from soewhere else.  Keep a close eye on your potatoes and tomatoes.

I'm taking Trevor's advice and going out tomorrow to buy a pressure sprayer and get going with the bordeaux mix and my worm leachate.


 
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: saddad on June 05, 2008, 23:37:09
Hi Innocenti... welcome to the site, if you have posted elsewhere I've missed it  :-[
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Melbourne12 on June 06, 2008, 06:48:46
...  I've found that there are two main types of weedkiller used in the UK but haven't yet discovered how long each remains in the soil.  That's our other burning question, IF we can find out which weedkiller we're dealing with.

....

Do you know which ones they are? The trade names will do.  Then we can see if we can find the data sheets for persistence.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on June 06, 2008, 07:51:19
Hi melbourne
The 2 main ones seem to be:

2,4-D (2,4-dichlorophenoxy acetic acid)
MCPA (2-methyl-4-chlorophenoxyacetic acid)

I've also found references to mecoprop, dichlorprop, triclopyr and dicamba.
 
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Garjan on June 06, 2008, 08:22:11
Hi all

My OH works for the department of agriculture and he said the following after reading your posts:
1. There is spraying of pesticides by plane only in the Flevopolder, an area in the centre of the Netherlands. There are no complaints of airborne contamination in other parts of the country.
2. There is no spraying of fertiliser. All fertiliser is injected in the soil.
3. They know the British media mentioned a strange smell coming from the Netherlands. As it was just a rumour, the department will not react. It is impossible to make an official statement every time a rumour is spread. Complaints about possible damage to health, food quality or other dangerous things have a higher priority.
4. If the smell did indeed originated in the Netherland, it was probably coming from (petrochemical) industries near Rotterdam. That sounds much more dangerous then it is: the nose can smell gasoline before any instrument can measure it. I dare say that the smell alone does not indicate any level of risk to people or other living beings. If there had been a health hazard, the alarm systems in the Rotterdam area would have warned us in time for evacuation.

So, this is not the offical take, but it makes thing a bit more clear.

The use of weedkillers that still work after being eaten, digested and composted is something that worries me very much.
On another level: how come Brussels prohibits the use of organic and homemade weedkillers and pesticides (Rhubarb), but allows these longterm working ones? Probably a classic: follow the money!

Good luck with the treatment and saving of your crops, ceres.

Garjan
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: djbrenton on June 06, 2008, 08:25:44
2,4D persists for between 20 and 200 days. Of course there's no data on the degradation of dioxins through digestion.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on June 06, 2008, 08:47:29
Thanks garjan, that's interesting.  Thanks for checking.  If it had been airborne, you would have expected surrounding areas in the Netherlands to also have been affected first.  I used to work in the oil industry and know how smelly petrochemical plants can be - comfrey tea doesn't come close!  I'm with you on the EC rules though.  It's mad.  I was reading some stuff about soft soap spray for aphids last night and an article by Bob Flowerdew said it's breaking the law to make your own mixture the way people used to using household products (Lux flakes, Stergene etc.).  Yet here's a weedkiller that must have been sprayed months and months ago and is still killing plants.  The world has gone crazy or maybe just the EC.

djbrenton, thanks for that.  If it's 2,4-D it's certainly more than 20 days now.  I got my manure last December, some people affected were even earlier than that.  The manure wasn't fresh at that point, so it had been stored for some weeks.  Would the straw that was used in the stables have been last year's harvest in which case the weekiller would have been applied some time last summer?  Which seems to be approaching more than 200 days.  We really need to speak to the farmer who, as of yesterday, hadn't replied to our messages.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Melbourne12 on June 06, 2008, 09:01:43
2,4-D

The half life in soil is <7 days http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/24-D.htm

It's actually approved for use on potatoes in Canada!

MCPA

This is a bit more persistent, but not dramatically so. http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/MCPA.htm suggests a half life of up to one month.

But it's interesting that MCPA is said to have "little affinity for soil", and its persistence is said to increase sharply in the presence of organic matter.  So it's possible (I'm guessing) that straw containing MCPA residues mixed with manure might keep the MCPA locked in for considerable periods.

Mecoprop

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/haloxyfop-methylparathion/mecoprop-ext.html

Low persistence

Dicamba

This is a bit scary- suggests a persistence of a year and a half in some conditions! http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/carbaryl-dicrotophos/dicamba-ext.html

http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/dicamba.htm says "moderately persistent"

Dichlorprop is the same as 2,4-D

Triclopyr

http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/triclopy.htm

Moderately persistent, so could be a candidate.  Also apparently used in formulations with the dreaded Clopyralid which DOES contaminate compost.  But it isn't clear to me whether Clopyralid is still allowed in the UK.


Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Sinbad7 on June 06, 2008, 09:16:11
This is a really interesting thread although I am really sorry for all those affected but would it then be safe to assume that this is only from straw based manure?

There has always been a discussion on which manure is best, wood chips versus straw based.  I ask as we have wood chipped base manure delivered to our site from The Royal Gardens but sometimes in the delivery there is straw which is from the Queen's own horses not often do we get this and there is never that much in the whole delivery, so does anyone know if the wood chips now used widely in stables is treated with any harmful chemicals?

Maybe this would be worth looking into.

Sinbad
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on June 06, 2008, 09:35:05
Does Royal Poo smell any sweeter or boost your plants better?
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Sinbad7 on June 06, 2008, 09:39:31
LOL, I don't think sweeter but it sure makes the plants grow ;D
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Rhubarb Thrasher on June 06, 2008, 09:49:17
with all these problems with the provenance of your manure, I think you should only accept Royal Poo if it's been personally passed by the Queen
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Sinbad7 on June 06, 2008, 10:01:45
 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on June 06, 2008, 10:24:43
Wow, thanks melbourne.  that's great info for when we find out what was used.

Re Clopyralid, I found this:

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2007-06-11b.227.0&s=section%3Awrans+speaker%3A13301#g227.1 (http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2007-06-11b.227.0&s=section%3Awrans+speaker%3A13301#g227.1)

Written answers
Monday, 11 June 2007
House of Lords
Chemicals: Gardening

Lord Lucas (Conservative) | Hansard source

asked Her Majesty's Government:

Which formulations that include clopyralid are licensed for (a) garden use and (b) for use by contractors on municipal or institutional grasslands; and how they intend to alleviate any problems this chemical might cause for the composting of green waste by local authorities.

Lord Rooker (Minister of State (Sustainable Farming and Food), Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; Labour) | Hansard source

There are six pesticide products containing clopyralid licensed for garden use:

Verdone extra (M13113);Verdone extra (M10635);Verdone extra ready-to-use (M11758);Verdone extra spot weeder (M10834);Vitax lawnclear 2 (M13508); Vitax lawnclear 2 ready-to-use (M13509); and

five pesticide products licensed for institutional grasslands:

Blaster (M10571);Blaster (M13267); Esteem (M12555);Greenor (Ml 0909); and

Spearhead (M09941).

Because compost contaminated with clopyralid may harm some ornamental and vegetable crops, the labels of pesticide products containing it have a warning to avoid using any plant materials treated with the products for composting or mulching. Therefore, grass treated with clopyralid should not be composted or sent for composting.


Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on June 06, 2008, 10:28:56
Sinbad, while I've been searching around for info on clopyralid I've found recent forestry research papers on the spraying of woodlands with clopyralid.  I imagine commercial woodlands are managed in much the same way as fields so it might be worth checking with your source whether or not there is any spraying.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on June 06, 2008, 10:33:45
 ;D Robert and RT!

The irony is our allotments are the Royal Paddocks attached to Hampton Court Palace, we used to pay our rent to the Master of the Horse.

Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Sinbad7 on June 06, 2008, 10:46:31
Thanks for that ceres, will try to find out.

But, why didn't you get the free manure from the Royal Gardens then?  As it is a service to all the London boroughs.

Sinbad
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on June 06, 2008, 10:54:10
There aren't any horses here any more sinbad.  The Paddocks were given over to allotments by Royal Warrant in 1921 when they were no longer needed.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Rhubarb Thrasher on June 06, 2008, 10:58:38
shouldn't laugh, this a serious thing. I know our council composting centre test for heavy metals (they didn't have much of an answer on what they did if a batch failed), but don't know if they test for weedkiller residues. i just got my first lot of manure, and was feeling very pleased with myself. Now I wonder just which part of Chernobyl it's come from
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Barnowl on June 06, 2008, 11:47:59
Hi Ceres,

Allotment's a jungle but the spuds are have good foliage apart from a couple where the damage is clearly by bugs.

Checked a few other plots and no sign of the type of damage you describe which tends to confirm it was the manure.

Very sorry for your troubles.

PS I understand manure is available from the stables in Richmond Park but I suppose there is still the  issue of checking where their straw comes from.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Sinbad7 on June 06, 2008, 14:51:23
The manure from the Royal Gardens is collected from all the stables to do with the Queen.  There is too much of it for Kew and the other gardens so they have tons of it over, which is then given free of charge to all the London Boroughs, plus free delivery.  So, nothing to do with if you have horses near by.

You have to apply in writing and then you make arrangements to meet on site when the first delivery comes and away you go, you can have as many deliveries as you want.  It really is good stuff, we have been having it delivered for the last year at our site.

Sinbad
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Kea on June 06, 2008, 18:55:01
Dicamba (based on my own observations from my thesis) causes bud proiliferation and epinasty followed by deformed and chloritic leaves. Translated that means lot's of buds are produced where normally you'd only have one or two; the top surface of the leaves grows faster than the underside causing the leaf to bend downwards. However I don't think dicamba could be used on a crop it would be like killing an ant with a sledge hammer. I used it on a 60ft Clematis vine with stems thicker than my arm and it and pichloram were the only things that killed the vine.

However it does look like a hormone weedkiller.....which of course act like a plant hormone and cause the plant to grow quickly first before they die, for example 2,4-D has auxin-like activity.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ACE on June 06, 2008, 19:44:45
Although not affected, I have been following this thread with interest. Earlier today I passed a barley field being sprayed. I stopped by the gate and waved the sprayer driver who came over on the next pass.

He happened to be on a spraying course with me once, so I asked if he had heard anything through the grapevine regarding your problems.

He has heard  of no bad reports and he gets a monthly magazine that comes through the trade.

What he did come up with though and it might have some relevence to your plight, and that was some of the bedding straw has been around quite a few years as new deliveries of straw gets piled on top of the old bales,  it is quite unlikely to come through on the straw in the manure as most pesticides/herbicides break down so quickly it is unlikely to stay a season in the dry straw then another season in the manure.

He would be looking at the concenrates which are full of a load of unsavoury chemicals they feed the livestock that must pass out into the manure. He would not allowed to spray some of those.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Rhubarb Thrasher on June 06, 2008, 20:00:07
maybe with farmers not able to get on the land with the flooding early summer, they used a different spaying regime
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: allaboutliverpool on June 06, 2008, 22:02:23
I thought that by using manure from my local stables that I was being organic -
how wrong I was!

Presumably the straw is sprayed and the feed contains spray residues.

There appears to be no end to the contamination and it makes me less worried about my slug pellets!

http://www.allaboutliverpool.com/allaboutallotments1_homepage.html
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on June 09, 2008, 22:18:58
Sinbad, I have pm'd you.

Many thanks to everyone who posted since I was last here.  I just got too depressed thinking about it and needed to take a break.  One of our chaps took a plant to Wisley on Friday.  The verdict was it's definitely hormone weedkiller.  They're seeing it quite often from contaminated manure apparently, so beware all!  He reckoned it will be in the soil for a couple of years.  Couldn't be more specific without knowing which weedkiller.  We asked about testing soil samples to find out.  There are about 10 substances that it could be and they can only test for each one individually at £100 per test, so worst case £1000, which of course we can't afford.  He would only express an opinion off the record on whether crops are safe to eat, but reckons if you get a crop and it looks OK then it is OK.

Our supplier hasn't yet phoned back since we left him a message, but apparently that's not unusual.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Spudders on June 12, 2008, 22:52:33
Hi

Although I have not had a problem with my spuds this year other plotholders at our allotments in Crewe Cheshire have had big problems.  My nextdoor plotholder's whole 20 rows of spuds have been affected.

Other plotholders have been affected and they all got their manure from the same farmer which was cow manure with straw.

Last year I used some manure from horse stables which was wood chip based rather than straw and it caused this problem on a bed of spuds of mine.

Perhaps more alarmingly another plotholder got some manure from a local nursery which caused the same problem.  But this manure is stored in a big heap uncovered to the elements and it must have been there for a couple of years.

I would post some pictures of the spud plants affected if I knew how.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on June 12, 2008, 23:17:58
Hi spudders, sorry to hear you're haivng problems on your site too.  Someone else pm'd me yesterday that they have it too - seems to be more common than I first thought.  It's very odd though that you've had it coming from 3 different sources, don't really understand that.

But then again I don't understand our situation either!  We've heard back from the chap who supplies us.  He only rents out stable boxes to people for their horses.  They bring their own bedding - some use straw, some woodchip, some hemp and look after the horses themselves, mucking out etc.  He doesn't spray anything, so the weedkiller can only have arrived as drift over the manure heap (stored outdoors) from spraying somewhere nearby.  No way of tracing it sadly.

I've dug up all my Swift planted 28 Feb - no potatoes.  I'm trying the feed and spray regime that Trevor_D suggested to see if I can salvage anything from the rest.

If you use the search function on the forum, there are some threads on how to put pictures up - it would be good to see your problem.   
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Trevor_D on June 13, 2008, 12:59:53
If I've read the information offered on this thread correctly, I've come to a few conclusions:

1 - The problem comes from compost or manure and is not air-borne (as I first thought).

2 - The culprit(s) is/are among the constituents of weedkillers used to kill broad-leafed weeds in grass. Although it becomes inert in soil, it remains in the grass & does not break down in compost or manure.

3 - The strawy element in horse manure poses the greatest risk, so if this is what we have, we need to compost it further to let it rot down. We certainly don't use it directly on crops like potatoes, tomatoes & beans. Better still, use the dark well-rotted stuff from the centre of the heap.

4 - But it can also be present in municipal recycled green waste, as this often contains grass sprayed with these weedkillers. This either comes directly back to local residents, or is sold on to commercial manufacturers of potting compost. (This explains why my greenhouse crops were affected last year: I used Council compost!)

I hope I've got this correct. Please shoot me down in flames if not!

We are telling our members to be aware of how & where they use any brought-in materials and look for any problems. And report them!!

Ceres, you say that your supplier doesn't spray. He doesn't need to: it's the bedding brought in that has been sprayed at some point and it's still present. Presumably, he mixes the whole lot together?

Sorry this is such a long post, but we do seem to have a widespread problem here that will continue unless someone finds out the root cause of it so that at least we're informed and can minimise it.

One final thing: my neighbour always manures his potatoes; this year he didn't have time and his potatoes are the healthiest you've ever seen. And another guy has had his crop ruined for the second year running: he added 30 barrow-loads of manure to his potato patch.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Need a Leek on June 13, 2008, 18:08:28
We are having this problem as well on the South Coast " West Sussex" and it also seems to be affecting beans and peas as well as spuds on our site, very strange as other veg in the same "horse" muck is thriving ???. I did start a topic a few weeks ago regarding this problem and someone kindly posted some pictures on it for me as I am having difficulties uploading them myself "claw like leaves on pots" was the title if anyone wishes to look and compare pics.

Cheers
Tony
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: shirlton on June 13, 2008, 18:19:15
Just come across this thread. Was at a meeting last week with folks from other allotments in North Birmingham. One chap told us that 15 plots had been devastated by cow manure that had come from a supplier in Aldridge. Whatever it was had killed everything. Glad I use horse manure that I have overwintered. Apparently this had also been overwintered
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: George the Pigman on June 13, 2008, 22:12:26
I have a different potato problem a total of abiut 2 rows haven't produced a shoot as yet. They were planted in Late  April. Others have and look tall and healthy palnts. What could have happened?


Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: manicscousers on June 13, 2008, 22:15:33
no idea george, some of ours didn't show either, all the rest in the bed are now flowering  ???
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on June 13, 2008, 22:36:34
Great summary Trevor.  I'd just add the advice you gave me and which Wisley also gave was for plants that look like they might survive, foliar feed weekly and for blight-susceptible crops, spray with bordeaux mix or equivalent at the recommended interval.

FWIW I don't think I'd buy Council compost.  I can't see that household green waste or even the parks and gardens stuff can be screened for undesirable content and I've no idea how good or otherwise their composting processes are.

This seems to be a countrywide problem but not one that much can be done about.  The way we buy the manure means we have no consumer protection.  So either we stop using manure or accept the risk each time we buy it.

Anyway, another question.  I've scraped off the manure mulch which was around my fruit, asparagus etc.  So I've now got large areas of bare soil.  I'm pondering sowing some green manure.  Question is - dig it in afterwards or pull it up and burn/compost it?  My thinking is that the weedkiller is on the straw bits in the soil.  We can't get it out, just have to wait for the strawy bits to rot.  If I sow green manure and dig it in, I'm adding nutrients back which might help next year's crops survive the remains of the weedkiller.  However, would the green manure actually contain any weedkiller?  And would digging in the green manure speed up or slow down the rotting down of the strawy bits?  Anyone got any thoughts please?
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Suzanne on June 14, 2008, 15:20:01
Hi Ceres.

I wonder if the PSD can help - they should be able to give advice on how best to mitigate the issues with a hormone weedkiller. They are at www.pesticides.gov.uk and are the body responsible for regulating pesticide usage in the UK - so staffed by agronomists etc.

In terms of breakdown I personally would have thought that if the weedkillers breakdown in soil then it is likely to do with biodegradation by soil organisms - I would have thought composted would give similar levels of biodegradation.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on June 16, 2008, 09:27:31
Hi Suzanne, I had looked at that website a couple of weeks ago but found it very unhelpful in terms of finding info on hormone weedkillers.  But following your suggestion, I emailed them at the weekend and got this reply this morning:

"Thank you for your email on Saturday regarding the problems you are experiencing on your allotment. You are not alone in contacting the Pesticides Safety Directorate (PSD) as we have had a large number of telephone calls, emails and letters. We do understand the distress that this is causing members of your society and we are going to issue a Regulatory Update this week. So if you could keep checking our website home page for the update."
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Melbourne12 on June 16, 2008, 10:18:38
...
In terms of breakdown I personally would have thought that if the weedkillers breakdown in soil then it is likely to do with biodegradation by soil organisms - I would have thought composted would give similar levels of biodegradation.

You're right, but the problem is that some of these compounds remain potent at incredibly low concentrations - parts per billion rather than parts per million!
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: cornykev on June 16, 2008, 20:09:09
I've just caught up with this thread and I'm sorry to here your news Ceres  :( and any others having probs with your spuds and things, it sure makes you think twice about using manure.  ??? :-\    ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on June 16, 2008, 21:13:28
Well, things are happening now!  Had a detailed response to questions I sent to the Pesticides Safety Directorate - thanks Suzanne for the suggestion.  Here's what they say:

"Thank you for your enquiry about problems you are experiencing on your
allotments.  As you have noted, similar problems are being reported
quite widely and we have had a number of enquiries along the same lines
in the last couple of weeks.

While there could be a number of reasons for the damage to your crops,
some of the information you have provided - the use of manure,
suggestions that herbicide is present, and the effects you have noted on
potatoes, tomatoes and beans - suggest (and I do emphasise that they
only suggest) that the manure contains traces of a herbicide called
aminopyralid.  This will have been applied to grass which was
subsequently fed to the horses in some form - perhaps as grazing or as
hay - and ended up in the manure as a consequence.  I would guess that
it is probably not in any bedding (unless this is derived from grass)
since straw is usually derived from cereal crops, and aminopyralid
products are not approved for use on cereals.

The following information is provided specifically on the assumption
that aminopyralid is probably present.  If you do have any information
that another herbicide is present instead of aminopyralid, we will
probably need to look at providing an alternative answer.

Without knowing how many horses were involved and how much of the
grass/hay was fed to them, it is difficult to estimate how much of the
aminopyralid might be present in the manure and therefore to provide
specific answers to your questions. 

It is probably reasonable to suggest that if the crops are actually
growing, albeit very poorly, then the amount of aminopyralid present is
probably quite low (greater quantities would probably kill the crops
completely) and eating any crops you do manage to harvest is probably
unlikely to expose you to any significant risk.  However, as indicated
above, it is difficult to estimate just how much is present and someone
wishing to be cautious may choose to destroy the crop instead; we would
probably not suggest composting the remains as the compost could then
contain residues of aminopyralid, although these will eventually
disappear.

Aminopyralid breaks down quite quickly in soil when exposed to soil
bacteria.  However, in the manure it is held within the remnants of any
plant material present; once this decomposes, the aminopyralid can
escape into the soil where it will be dealt with by the bacteria but
this leaves a window of opportunity between its release and its
breakdown where it is available for plants to take up.  This suggests
that once any plant material in the manure has completely broken down,
you will eventually be able to use the manure as normal.  Collecting any
unincorporated manure from the plots and ensuring it is turned regularly
may help with the breakdown and will also remove one source of
aminopyralid from the plots.  Where manure has been dug in, I'm not sure
too much can be done - turning the ground over regularly to try and
assist the breakdown process may help but will be difficult if there are
crops present.

Aminopyralid product labels do indicate that sensitive crops - potatoes,
tomatoes, peas, beans, carrots, lettuce (and related crops) - should not
be planted on any area treated with aminopyralid until the second
calendar year after application which may give an indication of how long
it will take until all traces are gone.  Its incorporation in manure
will, unfortunately, add a degree of unpredictability to this.

The product labels and associated technical literature do carry warnings
and advice on the management of manure containing aminopyralid and
avoiding risks to sensitive crops.  However, it is clear that in some
cases, and this will be one, the person growing and treating the grass
is not the person feeding the animals and disposing of the manure.
Given that effective manure management depends on the effective
communication of information about the grass having been treated and
consequently having restrictions on its use, and given that the manure
supplier only rents out the boxes, I would guess that he was not told
there was something in the feed which might cause problems with the
manure.  And tracing back to the grass supplier is likely to be all but
impossible if the stables are used by many different owners.

It is difficult to advise you about sowing green manure as the results
will depend on what is sown; legumes and clover may well be affected if
aminopyralid is still present, although clover is much less sensitive to
the herbicide than legumes are.

Most of the aminopyralid products currently available are marketed by
Dow AgroSciences, so because of the level of uncertainty I have
indicated, you should contact them for more detailed information and
advice; they have set up a special email address for this purpose at
ukhotline@dow.com.

As far as any future use of manure is concerned, all I can suggest is
that if you do obtain manure for use on the allotments, you try and
check whether the animals have been fed or could have been fed with
something treated with herbicide, and proceed accordingly.  We are
looking to see if there are ways to close potential gaps in the chain of
communication between grass grower and allotment user but may have to
accept that we will not be able to completely prevent this sort of
problem recurring in the future."


Need to go and do more googling now.

Also had an email from the Plant Health Inspectorate at DEFRA to call them regarding a possible site visit.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Trevor_D on June 16, 2008, 21:28:39
Well done ! We're getting somewhere! (Well, you are!!)

Interesting that the problems "have been reported quite widely" and they've had "a number of inquiries along the same lines".

I think we ought to be told....
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on June 16, 2008, 21:34:59
It's definitely WE!  Everyone on this thread has helped with bits of the jigsaw and offered support.

There does seem to be more than an odd isolated problem here and it seems to me significant that Dow has set up a helpline.  It'll be interesting to see what the Regulatory Update says.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on June 16, 2008, 22:46:46
Look what the first search for aminopyralid turned up:

http://www.chat.allotment.org.uk/viewtopic.php?t=18430&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 (http://www.chat.allotment.org.uk/viewtopic.php?t=18430&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)

http://www.fwi.co.uk/Articles/2007/11/30/108626/damage-to-potato-crops-caused-by-manure-or-slurry.html (http://www.fwi.co.uk/Articles/2007/11/30/108626/damage-to-potato-crops-caused-by-manure-or-slurry.html)
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on June 16, 2008, 22:52:39
"Speaking specifically about Forefront – an aminopyralid – Colin Bowers, marketing specialist for Dow, said................"Make sure you also take these factors into account if you are selling on manure. It is important to remember that it is your responsibility to make sure the manure is used appropriately. It can be used by farmers who wish to use it for grass, cereals or maize, but not sold to farmers or general public for use on sensitive crops or in gardens.""

http://www.farmersguardian.com/story.asp?sectioncode=33&storycode=17140&featurecode=282 (http://www.farmersguardian.com/story.asp?sectioncode=33&storycode=17140&featurecode=282)
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: martinstanley on June 19, 2008, 12:27:13
I have this problem - my entire potato and broad bean crop looks just like the photographs of an earlier post. 

It is probably caused by herbicide residues in cow manure. 

See this item of the Pesticide Protection Agency web site http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/garden.asp?id=2465 (http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/garden.asp?id=2465). 

You need to contact your supplier and see if meadows have been sprayed with the products mentioned.  Advice seems to be that there is little risk to health but who is going to risk it?  It has been suggested to me by Garden Organic and others to try a green manure and then do a test sowing next spring.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: sawfish on June 19, 2008, 18:30:57
there was an interesting bit in 'the potting shed' on radio 4 about this problem. You can still get it on listen again here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/radioscotland/programmes/beechgrovepottingshed/
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Need a Leek on June 19, 2008, 20:14:35
Nice one Sawfish a very helpful listen, I and fellow holders on our site are still in two minds whether the affected crops can be used. Being on the south coast just makes you realise that this is pretty much a nationwide problem.

Cheers
Tony
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: glallotments on June 30, 2008, 10:48:02
I joined this forum after notiicing people from here had visited my website. For the same reason yesterday I visited about three other forums and we have all been going through the same process. Yesterday over 400 visits were made to our website, where I have been collating information from wherever I have managed to get it from including.

So far government offices have been the least helpful and it had taken long enough to get the media interested. We managed to get an article in our regional paper as I believe have some other areas (you may be one of them Ceres. This seems to have got the ball rolling. I emailed all thebroadcasting companies but the best we did was a amorning interview on local radio - very early when most people are hurrying to work.

Our concern is that there doesn't appear to be anyone in governent taking responsibility - I have been given the runaround too. I have also been told that supply to allotments is a grey area and govenment don't seem to have any protocols in place to deal with this type of thing. Also no-one seems to want to track down the misusers at least to educate them. One of our web visitors tracked back to the farm supplying the manure and sure enough the label confirmed aminopyralid but obviously the farmer hadn't read the label before use. I'd be nterested to see if any other countries have been affected in te same way as us or whether they have more effective regulations than we do.

If anyone wants details of their experiences entering on our web page (Gov offices are visiting as is the media) then email me from the web site. I am starting a page just for this purpose as the list is growing. http://www.glallotments.btik.com/p_Contaminated_Manure.ikml You never know there may be other things on the site to take your mind off losing your potatoes too!
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on June 30, 2008, 11:19:48
Good work GL!  Hopefully exposure in a national newspaper might help get a few more people interested.

As I understand it, contravening the pesticides regulations is a criminal offence so if someone isn't listening, they d*mn well should be.  If the regulations can't be enforced because of the way manure is sold/given to amateur growers, then there's no point in having regulations, it's just a free-for-all.

I've had a very quick scan and aminopyralid appears to be licensed in the UK, US (some states only?), Canada, Australia - there may be others.  Haven't had time yet to look for reporting of problems but will have a dig around tonight.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: glallotments on June 30, 2008, 20:57:22
Just a thought - any chance that you could post everything on this on one thread. It's for selfish reasons really as I amtrying to keep watch on four forums and my website and blog messages.

Interestingly our potatoes are growing out of the problem at the moment anyway. DOW confirmed that this does sometimes happen and it can even cause an increase in yield - if we decide we dare eat them
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: telboy on July 02, 2008, 23:27:49
Hi all,
Sorry to come to the thread a little late but on reading all your posts, I feel that I am well informed now.
I have also been 'afflicted' and grow veg. in north Oxon.. I have been using farm yard manure which was fairly well composted (received in Nov.2007) & then stored undercover.
It has affected broad/runner beans worst of all as I used more of this with these plants than horse manure (which I obtain & use neat, plants look fine here). I have not grown main pots. this year due to blight in the last three years. A row of earlies had general own compost.
It appears that Aminopyralid (or such) is a common factor with my particular probs. & with yours also.
Why this year so much?
Many thanks to you all for producing such a fine & informative thread. There was also an article in last Sundays Observer.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on July 02, 2008, 23:48:26
Hi telboy, sorry that you're affected too.  It's very widespread.  I think the reason that it has hit so badly this year is that it's fairly new to the market.  It was only introduced in 2006 so probably not much sprayed material made it into manure supplies in 2007.  Farmers would have been in the process of switching over from their previous herbicide to this new 'better' one. Trevor_D's site is the only one I've heard of so far that was hit in 2007, but the floodgates have now well and truly opened.

I was interviewed and photographed for the Observer article!  There's another thread here:

http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,43062 (http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,43062)

It has suggestions on who you can write to, to protest about the loss of your crops and the poisoning of your plot.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: froglets on July 03, 2008, 09:09:54
Couple of plots on our site also affected - South Cheshire.  All used farm manure from the same local farm, those of us who use stable manure from the stables a little further down the same lane are ok, although we're keeping an eye out and putting the word about in case that farmer starts using contaminated straw for bedding.

Thanks for all the info folks.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on July 03, 2008, 09:14:16
Sorry to hear your site has it too, froglets.  Have you spoken to the farmer and the stables?
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: froglets on July 03, 2008, 09:41:49
Hi Ceres,  I work away a lot so only getting feedback second hand, I'll pick it up with the site rep week after next when the current madness slows down, although he's really good and will probably have picked it up with the affected guys by the time I next see him.  The problem was picked up by our site via a couple of other forums, and theres a good network between all the sites locally, so I'd expect it to be in hand.

Regards
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: telboy on July 04, 2008, 22:00:46
It seems that publicity is increasing!
There was a report on the subject in the BBC Midlands local news last night.
Well done ceres & all others for your brilliant efforts to bring this so much to the for!!!!
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: telboy on July 04, 2008, 22:04:52
Sorry all----

'to the fore'
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on July 04, 2008, 22:09:22
The more people get to hear about it, the more will come forward and then it might get noticed in high places.

Glad to hear it was picked up on Midlands radio.  The word is definitely spreading.

I've been invited on to BBC Southern Counties radio next Tuesday at 10am to talk about it with a lady from RHS Wisley and another affected grower.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Need a Leek on July 05, 2008, 16:24:59
I always listen to BBC SCR, it'll be an interesting listen. Maybe you could mention to Gordon Astley that Tony from Shoreham has been hit pretty bad, our site has a number of cases but for some reason I have been hit the worst according to some fellow lottie holders, but hey ho we live and learn.

Cheers
Tony
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: telboy on July 05, 2008, 16:58:09
In addition, I hear that bagged manure sold through Garden centres is also affected.
It's produced by a few companies & branded with a variety of names.
You can't win. Somehow I wonder how the organic brigade are taking this?
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Need a Leek on July 05, 2008, 17:16:01
I know of someone who bought bagged compost for their greenhouse and it was infected with the weedkiller. A well know and reputable brand too.

Cheers
Tony
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: tonybloke on July 05, 2008, 18:49:49
I've written to my M.P. about this, has everyone else?? ;)
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Need a Leek on July 05, 2008, 18:58:20
Our local council are on the case for us and they are going to source the farmer who provided the hay and straw...So I am told, we just need to continue making a noise.

Cheers
Tony
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Trevor_D on July 05, 2008, 21:07:54
I've written to my MP twice. Still had no answer....
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: amphibian on July 05, 2008, 22:55:22
I know of someone who bought bagged compost for their greenhouse and it was infected with the weedkiller. A well know and reputable brand too.

Cheers
Tony

A colleague of mine has it in her toms at home, she just used compost bought in a garden centre.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: green sleeves on July 06, 2008, 00:09:37
Suffered the same problem here in Belfast, thought it was due to  wood shavings in manure but seems now to be  UK wide and caused by  an insectide.  Lost peas, beans and has  dented the growth of  spuds, rasberry and gooseberry plants. Am now siting with 4 compost bins full of the same stuff and wondering what to do with it? Dow Corning say it will break down  quickley in the soil so might  just bury it for a year or too and hope for the best, any one any advice? How will we know  if the manure  is from  land that  has not been grazed on contaminated  land. Also has a big effect on organic farmers
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: lillian on July 06, 2008, 07:37:47
http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=20080629205505425
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: flossy on July 06, 2008, 08:30:30
 Hi everyone, 

Have been following this thread regarding manure contamination and the distressing results to people who have used it.  We have a yearly delivery of manure to our organic sight - I only used it for two bean trenches last year,  they didn't do well at all.   I havn't taken any  since, as  [1] - I found lumps of the stuff unrotted and [2] I couldn't really manage the carting of it across to my plot!!

Instead I took green manure from the site supply and my own homemade, to feed the top 6"
 It appears we have the same problem here [ South East],  my plots are flourishing and some plots who
favoured using manure are in a sad state, one looks to me as if they've given up  -  so sad !
We have a meeting soon and have mailed our coordinator helpful news from A4A.

As a child I remember the barrow loads of produce from my Dads plot, had to be distributed as was so much!     No artificial fertilizers [ that I know of] and the only threat was DDT, soon banned ---
What goes around - comes around  and if we could only start again, wouldn't that be good ?

Thanks for listening,

Newbie Oldie, or Oldie Newbie
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: manicscousers on July 06, 2008, 09:07:12
hi, flossy, welcome to the site  ;D
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Crystalmoon on July 06, 2008, 19:24:58
Hi everyone Im totally new to growing veg & after reading this thread Im really wary of using manure on my plot. What can I use instead to replenish the soil after this years crops are harvested?
would the dried chicken manure pellets be okay to use? 

Also if it is also a problem in some bagged shop bought compost what can be used for growing seedlings next year?
My own compost probably wont be rotted down enough by then so will it just be a case of chancing it with shop bought?

I am so very sorry for all the losses people have had. If this had happened to me in this first year I probably would have given up my plot.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: manicscousers on July 06, 2008, 19:36:02
have a look at threads on green manure and home composting  ;D
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on July 06, 2008, 19:46:06
That's a really good question crystalmoon.  Perhaps you could start a new thread with it - it's rather buried in this long thread and not so many people are reading this now (except those of us with the problem!).
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: amphibian on July 06, 2008, 19:55:04
This story was covered in depth on Radio Four today.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on July 06, 2008, 20:02:25
I'm looking at the schedule and don't see anything obvious - give us a clue - prgramme/time?
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: amphibian on July 06, 2008, 20:26:13
I'm looking at the schedule and don't see anything obvious - give us a clue - prgramme/time?

click here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/gqt/)
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on July 06, 2008, 20:40:41
Thanks amphibian!

Right everyone, get emailing GQT.

gqt@bbc.co.uk

Put 'Manure' as the subject line, tell them where you are and your experience with the contaminated manure. 
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: loopyloulou on July 06, 2008, 21:20:47
my other halfs dad quizzed me about it today, luckily the muck ive got was there when i got it and has been there for a long while so i should be safe, but i dont think ill be buying any manure if im honest! i know it doesnt help but im in birmingham and the news has spread, didnt get to talk to him long so dont know if he knows of midlands cases but it doesnt bode well does it?  but as the news is spreading i can only hope that for youre sakes something gets done about it, and good q about the seedlings, argh, didnt think it affected shop bought compost too :s fingers crossed we dont have any problems next yr, my home grown compost (backgarden srtuff) is made up of animal bedding, so lots of woodshavings, be interesting to see how my peppers and tomatoes planted in it do, but its too chunky to use for seedlings, but be interesting to see if the hay n stuff in small animal bedding is affected... hope not :( i dont want them eating chemicals :( deffo makes u think what else these companies are hiding...
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Need a Leek on July 07, 2008, 21:46:56
The more people get to hear about it, the more will come forward and then it might get noticed in high places.

Glad to hear it was picked up on Midlands radio.  The word is definitely spreading.

I've been invited on to BBC Southern Counties radio next Tuesday at 10am to talk about it with a lady from RHS Wisley and another affected grower.

Good luck on the radio tomorrow Ceres, I and many lottie holders and gardeners will be listening from my neck off the woods. I did email some pictures today to the station of my affected pots...If you are out of signal shot ladies and gents you can listen live online on the BBC Southern Counties website.

Cheers
Tony
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on July 07, 2008, 21:52:22
Thanks Tony!  Good idea to send the pictures in.  If I get a chance I'll mention you to Gordon Astley.   
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Trevor_D on July 08, 2008, 07:34:24
It's in "Amateur Gardening" this morning - full page news item.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on July 08, 2008, 07:37:24
That's great Trevor!  Now we just need someone to sit up and take notice.

BTW, the correct version of GQT is now on iPlayer - it has the discussion from Sunday about manure about 2 minutes into the programme.

Off to the BBC studio now!
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: froglets on July 08, 2008, 08:37:41
Hi Ceres,

I posted last week about those of us who had stable manure being ok ......  Spoke too soon.   The two beds we manured in May from out usual stables are now contaminated.

There are pictures of our potato and bean bed posted here. 

http://www.allotment.org.uk/garden-diary/261/contaminated-manure-aminopyralid-update/

The leeks, fennel, pumpkins and cabbages are ok, but of course we are worried about eating them now.  The manure from Jan/Feb is fine, so it's only arrived in the stock recently.  I can't believe the irony of me being insistent on growing by non chemical means & I end up with chemically contaminated crops through using manure.  I will be passing the stables on Wednesday so I will drop in and explain what is going on in case they don't already know & ask that they explain to peple coming in for manure.  I presume this will affect garden flowers etc as well that are related to the affected veg.

We have other potatoes, but those are all the beans from the A4A bean swap which I was really looking forward to.

Dang!
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Andy H on July 08, 2008, 21:41:30
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/index.shtml

Think this is the link which starts about 9 mins past ten am this morning
Click on Local radio stations then southern counties then gordon astley
this broadcast starts at ten so advance by 5 mins then wait a few.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Andy H on July 08, 2008, 22:07:05
RHS link

http://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profiles0708/Weedkiller-manure.asp
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on July 08, 2008, 22:27:03
Soory froglets, I just posted a long reply to you with a photo and it was bounced for being too big but instead of letting me edit it, it just disappeared.  What a stupid system.  I'll try to re-post later when I'm less annoyed!
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Need a Leek on July 08, 2008, 22:27:26
Well I guess that's it for this year for the Need a Leek family as my question regarding the thriving crops next to the affected pots on our two lotties was answered this morning, I am not taking any chances with my family's health so it is out with the fork over the next day or two and a burn up when it has all dried up...GUTTED AND THAT'S WHAT YOU CALL WASTING GOOD FOOD  Gordon Brown >:(.

Cheers
Tony
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Andy H on July 08, 2008, 22:33:32
I have used LOTS of manure from about 5 diff places so I hope we dont get affected.

Wonder if its ok to compost the affected plants???
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ninnyscrops on July 08, 2008, 23:05:16
Well having listened to the radio programme that's the last time I import manure for a while :o and will have to rely on compost bins to do the biz.

Perhaps not all of us are self-sufficient on our plot but it begs the question now of buying local organic produce too! The programme mentions that even if some crops look OK, ie brassicas that have been grown in soil that has been contaminated, not to eat them!

So where do we go from here?

Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Andy H on July 08, 2008, 23:50:42
Although it did say that 7 days after spraying the animals could eat it and also it is leached out after a year.

I will blanch and freeze stuff until I learn more unless the plants look bad.

If they look normal I will save.

B***** pesticides.

But dont take my thoughts for your own. be safe as you think is right.

My current heap has much grass and manure layers but I will go to the stables and ask them what they have used.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on July 08, 2008, 23:59:25
Going to post messages in a row - I know, bad etiquette - but I can't figure out how to get round the too large post problem.

I had a long chat with the RHS lady today and got 2 interesting fact-ettes.  I had been contemplating getting a manure sample tested with the possibility in mind of issuing a claim in the Small Claims Track of the County Court against our manure supplier.  But it seems that testing is a waste of time and money.  The quantity of aminopyralid present in the manure is so infinitesimally miniscule that testing is not conclusive.

And apparently, in mammals, aminopyralid goes straight through the digestive system - what goes in one end is pretty much what comes out the other.  It doesn't hang around.

As far as safety is concerned, I was in the studio with the RHS expert and she made quite an effort to correct the 'scaremongering' that was going on.  There isn't going to be a categoric 'yes, it's safe' or 'no, it's not' from anyone.  The lawyers wouldn't let them.  All there is, is the test data that suggests the risk to human health is very very small.  So it has to be a personal decision whether you eat your crops, if you actually get any.  It was a non-decision for me as, by the time the problem showed up, I had been eating my rhubarb from the beginning of the season after it had spent the winter under a thick mulch of toxic waste.  I am eating the fruit and veg - that's my own decision.  I might feel differently if I was feeding children.

Ninnyscrops, if you are concerned about eating the produce, it's probably prudent to assume that anything that has been planted in the contaminated manure has been affected whether they show the typical distorted growth or not.  My observation on my own plot is that so-called 'non-sensitive' crops experience a growth check and go through a stage of looking sickly but then seem to recover, but they have been exposed to it.

Tony, so sorry!  You're absolutely right.  This is one waste of food that isn't down to the consumer.  It's down to the bureaucrats who licensed this stuff and didn't allow for the fact that amateur gardeners have been using manure since the year oatcake and that the supply chain that gets the manure to us is in most cases complex and untraceable.

Andy, thanks for the links.  I think I'm going to ask the bods at the PSD about composting affected plants.



Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Need a Leek on July 09, 2008, 00:05:27
I may leave two or three of each crop in just to see how they turn out...Still ain't going to have a munch on them though.

Thanks by the way Nin's re your pm :).

Cheers
Tony
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on July 09, 2008, 00:15:44
Froglets, I'm so sorry - I know exactly how you feel.  Every time I go the the plot I see some new damage coming through.  Today it looks like the aubies are next.  If it makes you feel any better, here is a pic of my runners today:

[attachment=1]

I think your stables must stop selling/giving manure to growers once they know it's contaminated - I believe they're committing an offence if they carry on.  The only permitted disposal route is to spread it on grass or pastureland.

According to the RHS, ornamentals are affected too and not just things related to the sensitive veg crops.  It seems there is a set of sensitive ornamentals too (compositae?).

Sorry about your beans.  Maybe the nice A4A'ers will give you some for next year?

(Had to post this without the pic - too tired to try to figure out how to get it down to the right size.)
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Andy H on July 09, 2008, 00:26:41
Thanks Ceres

Let us know what you find out. I built a 6ft by 6ft by 5ft high compost heap and have been putting loads of manure, straw, grass and all the other stuff in it just to get loads to fill the on-going building of raised beds. I couldnt tell where the manure came from from what I have "used" so far but nothing out of the ordinary happening on the plot so far, touch wood.
 Have already eaten broad beans grown in a raised bed from the heap.

Trouble is with these un-known mixes of stuff is that they may be immediate or affect you in 40 years time.

There is a lot of crap we have eaten and breathed in over the years that will never be proven either way.

How many products are good for us then a few years later are bad for us!

This is quite a scary case though, and although I dont want to waste the results of healthy looking plants, I will be patient in the eating whilst waiting for results.

going to bed now, will put a poster up at the allotment for people to be cautious for those that haven`t heard or dont use internet.

Night all.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Need a Leek on July 09, 2008, 00:29:59
Many thanks regarding your heart felt input on this issue Ceres...A huge thumbs up from the Middle Road site lottie holders in Shoreham-by-Sea, West Sussex.

Cheers
Tony
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: martinstanley on July 09, 2008, 17:49:30
I have established that my supplier sprayed his fields three years ago with a forerunner of the products mention on the Dow web site called Pastor which contains clopyralid a forerunner of aminopyralid.  It has stayed in a heap for three years and we reckon we got the bottom of the heap which may explain why some who bought from the same supplier did not have quite such a devastating experience. 

Dow have been very helpful and provided me with the Directions for Use of both Forefront and Pastor which clearly state that manure from cattle grazing on sprayed meadows, or silage, or hay should not be used on susceptible crops eg peas, beans, potatoes etc or used for composting or mulching. It is some members of the farming community that are being irresponsible for not reading the tin.

I have asked the Food Standards Agency about risks to public health, ie in beef and milk, and told it is minimal which in my book conflicts with the advice from Dow not to eat the produce from manured areas.  I have had a meeting with my MP and placed the facts before him to ask further questions.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Trevor_D on July 09, 2008, 20:29:51

 I have had a meeting with my MP and placed the facts before him to ask further questions.


Good for you. The more of us who do that the better. My MP - Nick Hurd, are you listening - hasn't even bothered to acknowledge my two e-mails!


Dow have been very helpful


Well, they would, wouldn't they? (Those of a certain age will recognise the quote!) They have been been economical with the truth and are scared sh** ri*** about it coming out!
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: monro on July 09, 2008, 21:21:08
Hi do you know if this stuff has been band if not why not i muck my spuds heavily had a good crop no signs of trouble but sill worried :(
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Need a Leek on July 09, 2008, 21:32:32
I have just been having a nose on the safety data sheet regarding Aminopyralid...Dow site, which I am unable to give you the link as when it comes to computers I seem to consume a great deal of thick pills.

Google " Aminopyralid safety data sheet" and click on the FAQ result at the top... I am a tadge confused now as I am sure they state that brassicas are OK to drill after 4 months of what I will call CONTAMINATION.

What do you think?.

This is doing my swede in ???.

I am going to pull a ring pull of hops now :).

Cheers
Tony
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: froglets on July 10, 2008, 10:30:40
Thanks for the reply Ceres, will post back after speaking to the stables this weekend.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: martinstanley on July 10, 2008, 20:19:56

Dow have been very helpful


Well, they would, wouldn't they? (Those of a certain age will recognise the quote!) They have been been economical with the truth and are scared sh** ri*** about it coming out!
[/quote]

Whilst I am no supporter of companies making pesticides, I do not see it as their fault but rather the farmer/contractor who is unable to read the instructions and advice on the tin.  If they followed the instructions which are (and I paraphrase) 'don't put resultant manure on crops, don't use as mulch or compost' this would not be happening.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on July 10, 2008, 20:44:14
Quote
Whilst I am no supporter of companies making pesticides, I do not see it as their fault but rather the farmer/contractor who is unable to read the instructions and advice on the tin.  If they followed the instructions which are (and I paraphrase) 'don't put resultant manure on crops, don't use as mulch or compost' this would not be happening.

In a large number (possibly the majority) of cases, this problem is not due to a farmer or contractor failing to observe the product instructions.  If a farmer sprays his crop or pasture and then feeds his animals on it, then sure he is culpable if he then gives/sells that manure to an allotment or gardener.  But I suggest this is a minority of cases.

However, the reality is that the sprayed material goes through several links in a supply chain before it gets to the gardener in the form of manure.  Farmers spray their crops which are then sold on for animal feed or bedding to a processor, wholesaler, feed merchant, stables .................. etc.  The farmer has no idea and could not reasonably be expected to know that the sprayed material was going to be used by gardeners.

The fault lies with the bureaucrats who framed the regulations for this product.  They failed to take account of the secondary market (i.e. gardeners) for manure and the complexity of the supply chain that gets it to the gardeners.  The supply chain is unpoliceable and the regulations are unenforceable.

I can only see 2 possibilities to fix this.  One is that the product is withdrawn from the market and we all continue using manure as we always have.  The second is that this product stays on the market and the use of manure by amateur gardeners is stopped by law.





Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on July 10, 2008, 22:17:03
How on earth would they enforce that? I don't see it happening, but loads of chemicals have been withdrawn before.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: dylanplant on July 11, 2008, 20:10:48
Hello all!

I've just tuned in to this link after a response to my question on the BBC board. We have this problem too :( We're in Lincolnshire (I can't remember if a Lincs case has made it into the previous 7 pages sorry - a lot to digest!) and I know at least we and a small-scale farmer about 3 fields back have the same problem, though his is a milder scale.

The thing is we both have horses and we at least (I'd be shocked if he didn't) use our own manure. We also use our own hay and he makes and uses his own straw as well. We don't stable our horses so straw isn't relavent. The most recent time our fields were sprayed is about 3 years ago at least, for thistles by the hay-maker, and I would be VERY concerned if my horses had eaten something as potent as this seems in their hay.

So I would say we have no recent spraying, no straw, and only the horsemuck we've been using in the same way for years (two of our horses are very old!!). I'd be surprised if the farmer sprays too. So I'd like to re-introduce the potential for airborne issues - I know the farmer between the two of us sprays his arable fields at least, so perhaps he's the source for within our manure. The farmer with the issue does also have some curling leaves on the elders in a hedge (certainly unmanured), which is suffering on the side which faces the spraying farmer's field and not the other.... this is speculation though.  What do you think?
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on July 11, 2008, 20:52:40
Hi dylan, sorry to hear you're affected too.  You'll have to forgive me, I don't know much about keeping horses!  Are you saying that there is nothing your horses have eaten or been bedded on that you did not produce yourself and you therefore believe to be unsprayed except three years ago?  No bought in feed of any kind?

When you manured the crops that have been affected, did you use new/recent  manure or was it the 3 year old stuff.

Does your haymaker have a record of what he sprayed with 3 years ago?

What is the farmer in between you spraying with?

Sorry. lots of questions!

I wouldn't be too worried about your horses.  If your contamination is from aminopyralid, the quantities in the plant material are minute and they pass straight through the gut of mammals, according to the experts. 
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Eristic on July 11, 2008, 22:16:22
Quote
this is speculation though.  What do you think?

I think you are a plant.

The poison is aminopyralid, it is in the manure, it gets into the manure via contaminated hay.

Listen to the reasoning and research of a very dedicated and thourough team, some of whom have been on this case for 2 years.
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Andy H on July 11, 2008, 22:29:19
Eristic: explain more please...
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: dylanplant on July 12, 2008, 15:09:18
Ceres - good questions :) yes, we have realised that the hay we were feeding for the manure we used this year was indeed from the sprayed hay :( which stops my confusion but doesn't heal my plants! Still, we are going to follow the tips listed earlier and try to have a good year next year.. feels like we say that a lot!

Thank you for your reassurance about our horses - it's not nice to think they've had to eat what's so clearly harming the plants, but as the experts say they're fine i'm not going to worry.

Eristic, I am not a plant; I grow them. And I had read and accepted all the comments and expert info, I just hadn't managed to link as to how it had happened to our manure, sorry for being confused, the brain's back in gear now, think it got a bit overwhelmed by all the new information!

Good luck everyone, hope your soils recover!
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: PurpleHeather on July 19, 2008, 07:40:35
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Aminopyralid/

Perhaps you would like to add your signature to this petition
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: skintnbitter on July 19, 2008, 07:51:23
Signed it!

Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Trevor_D on July 19, 2008, 10:38:23
And me!
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: tonybloke on July 19, 2008, 16:51:27
Ditto! ;)
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: posie on July 19, 2008, 18:08:57
Me too.  :)
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Need a Leek on July 19, 2008, 18:30:28
I am wearing a police uniform and banging on door No10...I hope I have got the right street.  ;D

Cheers
Tony
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: asbean on July 19, 2008, 18:33:02
And me  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: PurpleHeather on July 19, 2008, 20:39:09
I have been telling a lot of people about this.

Several have said that the problem is,  people are not digging in their manure properly. Or not letting rot properly. As though it is the gardener who is at fault.



Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Dadnlad on July 19, 2008, 20:43:04
Yep, us too  :)
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: Need a Leek on July 19, 2008, 21:28:32
I have been telling a lot of people about this.

Several have said that the problem is,  people are not digging in their manure properly. Or not letting rot properly. As though it is the gardener who is at fault.





Well the so said several should have a so said read on this site, online and in the local paper in their area...Dr. Gardener Who....Where are you????.

Cheers
Tony
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: ceres on July 22, 2008, 22:31:41
Got a reply from MEP - he's a bigwig in Environment and Food issues in Europe.  He is concerned and is writing to DEFRA and the European Commission.

Following on from my meeting with my MP last week, he's coming to our site tomorrow with a photographer from the local press who are doing a story with pics. 
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: twinkletoes on July 23, 2008, 09:38:18
Good luck Ceres - don't forget, give 'em both wellies right between the eyes!   ::) :o
twinkletoes
Title: Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
Post by: telboy on July 24, 2008, 22:18:24
My latest victims.
I won't be eating these!
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