Allotments 4 All
Produce => Edible Plants => Topic started by: squeezyjohn on October 18, 2017, 11:21:52
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Every year when the time comes around to buying garlic seed I am becoming more and more frustrated by the diminishing number of varieties and the complete disappearance of several sorts which I know performed really well for me. I can see that these varieties are still available in the USA as they are for sale over there ... but seed garlic is living tissue and cannot be imported legally (I think) and American companies almost never send anything abroad anyway!
Chesnok Red, German Red and many others I've forgotten the names of now have disappeared years ago despite being amazing performers with a great flavour. Others have had their name changed with a "Wight" suffix. In fact - if you look at all the major catalogues there is hardly a single variety available that isn't grown by the Garlic Farm on the Isle of Wight. If they don't grow it ... it's not in the catalogues. If its name has changed ... they have changed the name!
This year The Garlic Farm has drastically reduced the number of varieties available - and so have the main seed catalogues. The price of seed garlic has gone up a lot everywhere too! I don't mind buying from them on principle but I have suspicions about where some of my white rot has come from when planting in ground I know hasn't had any alliums growing for over 10 years and two years ago they sent me bulbs with only 3 or 4 cloves on each one for £3 each!
Is the industry a stitch-up or am I imagining it? Does anyone know where else I can look to buy interesting hardnecks or good solid performing garlic (without the doubt of white-rot coming in from seed stock)?
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Like you, I wasn't happy with the quality and choice from the obvious suppliers, so I've bought mine for three years from Tamar Organics. My variety of choice is "Sprint" and I'm very happy with what they send me. Having bought mine from them a couple of weeks ago, I see their 2018 catalogue doesn't have the variety any more, so I hope it will be back next year.
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I have been wondering about this too. Is the use of the suffix "Wight" licenced, and therefore adds to the cost? I have purposely steered away from them for several years for historical reasons that I won't go into here. I have bought my garlic from Wilko, 2 Germidour for £2 or from Taylors available in garden centres. I am not sure if I am shooting myself in the foot, but I am trying not to buy "Wight"!
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I only buy Garlic every four or five years or so.
Each year when I harvest I save the largest three or four bulbs of each variety and store then until planting out time.
At harvest time each year I look at my crop in terms of quality and quantity then if I decide they are of poor quality or size then and only then I buy new.
As I see it this is basically what "The Garlic Farm" do.
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Thanks for the tip about Tamar organics ... I'd not heard of them before.
As for the changes of name with the Wight suffix ... it's supposedly given to new strains that have been developed by The Garlic Farm - although how they are creating these new strains with suspiciously similar names and descriptions to previously available varieties I really don't know. True garlic has lost the ability to reproduce sexually via seeds and that means that any clove planted will make a clone of the parent plant ... the same is true for bulbils too. The only real reason for not using your own cloves as seed would be build up of diseases in the tissue - a problem I assume would also be the case for a commercial seed grower. Whatever the case I don't see how they can possibly be creating new types of garlic to put the 'Wight' name on ... but what do I know? ... I've only got a degree in genetics from Cambridge!
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Is it simply because the original strain has been acclimatised to UK conditions, by being grown on the IOW for a few years, so the suffix Wight can be added?
In the garden Centres there are strains that aren't suffixed, which grow just as well -you don't have to buy IOW seed garlic.
Last year I grew Eden Rose - I bought it in either Wyevale or Dobbies.
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I would not believe anything that the Garlic farm does. Here's a topic from a few years ago, The sweetcorn farm was the same farm before he went over to garlic farming
https://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=43562.0
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Is it simply because the original strain has been acclimatised to UK conditions, by being grown on the IOW for a few years, so the suffix Wight can be added?
As I said ... I would be very surprised if vegetative propagation (planting cloves) produced any change in traits of the garlic including acclimatisation to the UK. That's how it works ... only by having a random chance mutation (a rare event) in a single cell can a clone have any different traits at all ... and given a garlic clove is made of many thousands of cells it wouldn't make a difference anyway! What I think is happening is that they're getting different local garlics from abroad and slapping a different label on them so that no-one else can do the same. It's about as honest as trying to copyright traditional folk music or getting an exclusive patent on a rabbit.
Thanks for the heads up ACE. It's good to get some local insight ... my, my ... pretty bad stuff has happened there!
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And that Ace, is why I don't buy any "Wight" garlic!
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squeezyjohn, That may be what you believe, but lots of professional growers, blogs etc post on the web about garlic acclimatisation over a few years.
Even Pen state university says
The term "biological elasticity" describes garlic's ability to acclimate to these factors over time.
https://extension.psu.edu/garlic-production
So I may disapprove of certain seller's prices (and their dodgy pasts) but am inclined to believe that garlic can change when grown year after year in a certain place.
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It's not a case of belief ... and I am increasingly willing to accept observations by the real experts who deal hands-on with growing things day-to-day over any scientific models. But if that is the case then there must be some other mechanism at work ... and I'd rather know what that is than take the word of a man living on a remote island who has sprayed nerve agents over a commercial crop and potentially killed someone!
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There are some very interesting amateur grower studies about making garlic fertile again. Very, very occasionally some types of garlic produce fertile seeds.
From these seeds new varieties emerge that are not clones with limited adaptability but new varieties that can make much greater strides in adaptation.
To make garlic fertile again rather to clone it, is the real step forward. :wave:
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Is it simply because the original strain has been acclimatised to UK conditions, by being grown on the IOW for a few years, so the suffix Wight can be added?
No it hasn't been acclimatised to UK growing conditions at all. If it was a garlic farm in North Yorkshire or on London clay, then UK adaptation would be a better justified label. Coming from IOW means it is n o t adapted to my climate and soil. :wave:
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I am also not sure that acclimatisation to the IOW is any use to me. I am not that far away but my climate is quite different, much drier, colder in winter, more frost, and warmer in summer.
Interesting that garlic does not produce seed thought there is one plot here with a lot of wild garlic. It will be interested to see if that has any seed.
Perhaps if it does acclimatise it is a good reason to use your own.
Interesting link from ACE I wonder if the cheetah has changed its spots.
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Found this
http://www.fwi.co.uk/news/record-fine-for-unlicensed-sprays.htm
Seems it was quite a long time ago. However he does not seem to have suffered a great deal. Anything about it on line has been very deeply buried. While there is loads of publicity for the Garlic Farm.
It is perhaps interesting to note that Tesco does not source its garlic from the UK
https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/263386065
But Ocado
https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/263386065
http://www.fruitnet.com/fpj/article/172687/the-garlic-farm-wins-20k-marketing-prize
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Franchi state that a lot of the seed garlic available in the UK is imported from China..... Not sure if this is accurate or not?!
They offer hardy Italian garlics for sale, has anyone tried theirs? I'm tempted....
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There are some very interesting amateur grower studies about making garlic fertile again. Very, very occasionally some types of garlic produce fertile seeds.
From these seeds new varieties emerge that are not clones with limited adaptability but new varieties that can make much greater strides in adaptation.
To make garlic fertile again rather to clone it, is the real step forward. :wave:
I also remember a recent episode of Gardener's World where Monty Don talked to a chap (probably the one from The Garlic Farm!) who had been to Turkey to try and find the fertile wild predecessor to modern garlic to try and breed new exciting varieties. Alliums seem to have the habit of creating non-viable seed making varieties which can normally only be cloned (potato onions, Babington's leek) - I suppose these are often the ones we choose for eating as the plants put more of their efforts in to bulbs etc if they are not using that energy to make seeds.
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Franchi state that a lot of the seed garlic available in the UK is imported from China..... Not sure if this is accurate or not?!
They offer hardy Italian garlics for sale, has anyone tried theirs? I'm tempted....
I saw those ones ... they have a tempting red hardneck ... but I suspect that if ones grown on the Isle of Wight are not best suited to the rest of the UK climate as some have suggested then Italian ones would be less so.
My initial musings over whether we were entirely at the mercy of The Garlic Farm for varieties seems unfounded ... there are quite a few which seem to be grown by one or two large concerns in France:
Thermidrome,
Germidour,
Edenrose,
Messidrome,
Printanor,
Flavor.
You've mentioned the Italian ones from Franchi:
Rossa di Sulmona,
Bianco Veneto.
plus two french varieties just called red and white
(edit: there's also a variety of hardneck Porcelain garlic called Doocot sold by the really garlicky company in Scotland from their website)
Chinese grown varieties seem widespread from Amazon, eBay and some rather faceless web based companies. However, when you look at the kind of variety of types which are available in the US and Canada ... we're very poorly served - over there they can get what I know to be great hardnecks for our climate and many many more I haven't heard of.
Can anyone add to this list of what's available?
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2097718.stm dated 2002
"Mr Boswell said in his defence that he would no longer be involved with the farm – following the incident his business has suffered heavily and the farm is up for sale." dated 1999!
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Perhaps it's not approved practice but for as long as I remember I have just taken store bought organic garlic (I get haeds grown in France) and just plant the biggest cloves. I stopped buying garden centre garlic as it was 3 times the price and I really saw no difference in harvest. I always get OK Garlic, the size seems to depend more on the weather than anything else.
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I usually do the same as Antipodes.... that is I buy the biggest bulbs I can find in the supermarket which is usually about 20% of the cost of seed merchant's stock.
Usually I get a good harvest and I save the biggest bulbs for the following year.
I grow them like this for a four or five years or as long as they keep producing large healthy bulbs.
If the bulbs begin to produce a poor crop I start again with fresh stock.
Two years ago I bought some expensive bulbs from Robinson's seeds which all had "Wight" in their name.
To be quite honest I haven't noticed any difference in quality of these against the culinary bulbs I have bought from any of the supermarkets.
I usually grow a Hard neck and a Soft neck variety plus some Elefant garlic which in truth is not a true Garlic!
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What is the advantage of seed garlic. It is very expensive.
Waitrose have Duchy which is supposed to be grown in the uk
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People have a good point about growing from "culinary" garlic ... I didn't realise so many people did this!
My doubts would be if the plant was a variety grown in a much hotter climate that it wouldn't be suitable for growing here ... and there is always a chance that it's been sprayed with a growth inhibitor to stop it sprouting or irradiated/heat treated. However it seems most people who've tried this have had success and I might well give it a go ... you can get some really nice types of garlic for less than the price of seed garlic if you steer clear of the supermarkets.
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The big issue is white rot. I have it on my plot and I don't want to replant cloves because (rightly or wrongly) I think it will have a head start on them.
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I think white rot is more to do with the soil than it is the bulbs ... if you try to store a bulb with even a touch of white rot on it it simply will rot in storage.
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Mine was a bit rubbish this year so I think I will buy some organic from the greengrocer and plant that. My cloves are a bit small to risk replanting this year.
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Well I've just taken delivery of some heads of seed garlic (porcelain hardneck variety called Doocot) from the Really Garlicky Company for 90p each and they're grown in Scotland and are supposed to be tolerant of cold and wet weather ... even though they say there's approximately 5 cloves per head there's actually more like 8 and they're really nice big ones. The heads that the garlic farm sell come to about £3 each!! Nuff said.
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Its my experience that grocers garlic is either Chinese ,from Pakistan or British . The British is likely to be fresher and used to our climate.It is said that concerns of introducing contagion can be allayed by placing the split cloves in vinegar for 15 minutes prior to planting. However the greater risk is from contaminated soil in the plot.
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Hi found this site, http://www.southwestgarlicfarm.co.uk/elephant-garlic.html, an email to them could give a bit more information on supplies.
John :coffee2:
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Hi found this site, http://www.southwestgarlicfarm.co.uk/elephant-garlic.html, an email to them could give a bit more information on supplies.
John :coffee2:
and
https://www.newcoventgardenmarket.com/blog/grower-profile-south-west-garlic-farm
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Some of my garlic flowered /formed little bulblets I haven't planted those yet But was planning to in the new year in pots in the green house Do you think should I wait till then or plant up now? i haven't bothered with them before . I always save the largest cloves from home grown stock and haven't had any issues
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Some of my garlic flowered /formed little bulblets I haven't planted those yet But was planning to in the new year in pots in the green house Do you think should I wait till then or plant up now? i haven't bothered with them before . I always save the largest cloves from home grown stock and haven't had any issues
You can use these bulbils for growing, but unless they are the large type (large pea size to small cherry size), they will need two years to produce a fully formed bulb. After one year you get an undivided bulb (nice to eat all the same, just does not divide into cloves). Bulbil size varies tremendously, from smaller than a grain of rice to larger than a peanut. I have had success with large bulbils, especially planted early in autum (early October). Small bulbils are more at risk and thrive better in a pot until they have developed into a plant. Possibly best in a greenhouse over winter or in a conservatory, or 'sown' in spring and then transplanted into the garden that autumn to produce a large divided garlic the following year. :wave:
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Thanks for the tips Galina they average out about the size of a lemon pip But I will have a go and pot them up, nothing ventured nothing gained
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Thanks for the tips Galina they average out about the size of a lemon pip But I will have a go and pot them up, nothing ventured nothing gained
Lemon pip size are easy to plant in a pot, but almost certainly will take two years to grow into a fully divided clove. Good luck :wave:
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There's a very long thread here about getting garlic to produce true seed.
http://alanbishop.proboards.com/thread/5471/true-garlic-seed?page=1