Topic: Them Pesky Kids

[Obelixx]

But you were right Heldi.

Wit the fortunately rare exception of the true psycopath, bad behaviour in kids is the result of parenting failure - whether from lack of knowledge, love, experience, support whatever.  It's not money.  I've seen good and bad in rich and poor. 

Parenting is a huge commitment requiring time and thought and consideration.  Too few appreciate that and too few think self-discipline is as important for them as for other people's kids, let alone their own.

There is also a huge gap in the supply of facilities for young people to meet and play and study in safe environments with varying degrees of supervision and that's a political failure.   Social responsibility works two ways.

Rant on.  You're not alone.

[caz 406]

Heldi, you're right and it is a shame that kids all get tarred with the same brush, but it's hard not to. Like mac said - his first thought was of vandalism as soon as he saw the lad jump over the fence. It's really sad but there are too few facilities and insufficient deterrents.
I believe "respect" is the key. When I was at school we had to stand up and say good morning when a teacher came into class and we stayed standing until told to sit. Only 20 odd years ago (I'm 38) but even though that school is still quite strict they no longer have that level of respect that we had then. There was little truancy because you just didn't dare to - and the thought of your parents finding out was terrifying!
I think respect is a mutual thing that has to be earned and reciprocated. It needs to come from the home and be supported by the Govt.
I would like to get the person that broke dad's greenhouse windows and show him how hard dad (and all the rest of us) works, how much pride is taken in what we grow and try to get him to take an interest in it - but methinks the chances are I would get told to F -orf! But maybe I'm being unfair...how do you know?  ???

[Robert_Brenchley]

I think it's bigger than just parenting; it's family structure breaking down and the loss of neighbourhood communities. Time was when most people had aunties, uncles, grandparents, etc. living locally; there was always someone to go to for support. You knew your neighbours too, and you knew who you could trust. Now that's all gone, and parents don't have the support networks they need. So some of them don't cope, and their kids don't cope in their turn, and it starts to snowball. Once started, how do you stop it?

[Obelixx]

Yes, that's why I said it was also a political failure.   Society has changed.  The extended family is a rarity, no longer the norm.   More women have to work to contribute to family income and yet the provision of pre and after school child care by local councils is scandalously low.  There is a dearth of homework clubs and during the school holidays often nowhere for kids to go and be occupied and nurtured and socialised - unless you can afford private schemes.

Result - kids roaming and bored and unsupervised = trouble.

[wardy]

When I was a kid if I misbehaved I knew I would have to face the music, eg my MOTHER  :o   I would quail at the thought of getting on the wrong side of her.  She was formidable.  I once got into trouble for skiving off school and the head asked me what she should do, eg take me off the netball team (hee hee), detention or tell my mother.  I said you can put me in detention for two years but do not tell my ma.  She would have killed me.  Strong mothers and aunts were a feature up here (Yorkshire ones especially) and are credited for forming a well disciplined generation.  My mother is very ill in hospital at the mo and has been for 3 months but we visit each day and she's still very much in charge and she castigates us for being "pathetic" if we get only slightly soppy.  She doesn't do emotional  ;D  She is still my heroine.  Tiny woman but massive character, quiet though but she took no prisoners.  If we fell out at home (4 of us) we would have to whisper or we would be in deep trouble.  No shouting allowed.  I think we were lucky and I've bought my kids up to behave.  My husband on the other hand was allowed to rant and rave in the house and put his fist through doors  ;D  Not since he married me  ;D     I've turned into my mother and am carrying on the tradition  :) My little niece says I'm strict that's why she behaves  ;D  I've done a good job as she loves the lotty

[lorna]

On the subject of parents... My Mother would always shout and a good clip round the ear, probably had to shout I was the eigth one of nine. However my Dad(who Iadored) would just lower his newspaper and look over his glasses at us.. never laid a finger on me but that was enough. That is what I call RESPECT! Yesterday my daughter who is Mum to Grandson Joshua aged 10 was asked to see his teacher,we knew it wasn't bad behaviour. Anyhow apparently there are six really badly behaved children in his year, no respect for other children or adults. They thought that if they had a 45min meeting each week with these children maybe they could teach them social behaviour. They asked if Joshua and his best friend could be in on these meetings as roll models. I was really proud but then started thinking about it...if these children are that bad are they going to turn on Joshua and start a bullying campaign? When his Dad came home he was also worried, if the teachers and parents cannot handle them what chance Josh and friend have to change their ways? I was quite worried and telephoned my niece and her husband who have taught for years. They both said please be very careful and find out everything you can before you commit Josh to this scheme.I am sure these children may need some help but I do not want it to be at Joshua's happiness.. Any comments? Lorna.

[caz 406]

Lorna - what a credit to you and your family that Joshua should be a role model - you must be so proud  ;D Can understand your concerns about the scheme though  :-\  How sad for the other children to be in that position but even if they get help at school surely they need it all reinforcing at home? Very difficult situation.

[RSJK]

R B you mentioned aunties and uncles, these are words you hardly here nowdays children do not bother using them, just shows the lack of respect for family life.
                      >:(

[lorna]

Caz 406, yes extremely proud, mind you Caz as he has gone eleven weeks getting 10 out of 10 for his spellings he is obviously better at spelling than his Nan (roll....role) :o I have had a long chat with him and told him how proud we are but do have concerns. Joshua said Yes Nan I am a bit concerned.. we are just going to give him time to think about it.
     
Richard. he also callls family members by their "title" I,E  Aunty or Uncle. He is by no means perfect, in fact he can be a little rotter but hey that's part of growing up. but I do agree with what you say.
 
Wouldn't it be nice if we could put the world to right. :)
Happy holiday weekend to all. Lorna.

[Robert_Brenchley]

R B you mentioned aunties and uncles, these are words you hardly here nowdays children do not bother using them, just shows the lack of respect for family life.
                      >:(

I keep forgetting that I live with Africans! Everyone's auntie this and uncle that. It works; the girls are doing fine overall, though the older one has post-traumatic stress from her experiences during the war, and is badly affected by that, so she can be difficult at times.

[Heldi]

Obelixx, I made the decision to stay at home with my son and now my daughter. I thought it was the right thing to do.I was in my nextdoor neighbours house listening to her going on about her part time job as a teacher. (How you can teach part time I don't understand I thought it was a calling). She was on about how it was her time and adult time etc etc. All her,her,her. I see her boys at toddler group and they are not very caring and sharing. Infact some behaviour I would have been mortified with if my son or my daughter showed same. Their child minder tells me often they don't want to go home they want to stay with her.  I just couldn't have that just to go to work for a couple of days. Very hard ground on which to express an opinion  but what the heck. I'm often made to feel like a second class citizen because I choose not to give my kids away in order to go to work.

I think there is a big difference in my being there for them but also because I was brought up in a certain way. My dad was a secondary school teacher. Hence my feelings for part time teaching.He had very strong values. He was full of fun but he knew how and when to draw the line, particularly in the classroom. If we were getting too hyper at home he would just have to look over his specs and we knew we were going too far,if needed he would use what we called his "teachers voice".   I guess I use the same with my son when he is getting a bit too uppity.   My son's teacher said she wishes that all her class were just like my son. He is "lovely,polite and a delight to teach." 
So I get vexed when there are those of us who are trying to bring up our children in the best way we can and then they/we are tarred with the same brush. Who brought up those rotten mothers? I heard one say to her child only yesterday.."no you can't have a fri**ing biscuit!" Who brought that mother up ? !!

I stand by what I said about the people of the 60's and even broaden it to the 70's ! Probably the same people voted in the woman who said there is such thing as society. Probably the same people are moaning about lack of respect now.

I'd also like to say that I'm no angel I'm not sitting here polishing any halo and I know a few choice words!!

[Heldi]

I insist on calling my Aunt and Uncle "Aunt and Uncle" I think it is a very important title. I differ with my brothers on this who don't call her Aunt. I think they are rotten for that.

My Aunt is having chemo right now (brain tumour) so I wish her loads of love. she's the only Aunt I have.

 Have you ever wondered if the very people who are aunts and uncles are the brothers and sisters of the unsavoury grandparents who brought up the unsavoury parents etc etc?The buck has to have stopped somewhere hasn't it?

[SueM]

Heldi, I remember the 60s very well!! And I agree that the rot started there. And no, I didn't vote in Mrs T. However, not all of us 60s teenagers turned out to be rotten mothers. A lot of us ignored the trends and parented very much in the way we had been ourselves.

I'm proud of my well-motivated, well-mannered, hard-working kids, now in their mid-20s. Bringing up children isn't rocket science - a lot of it is teaching them that "No" doesn't mean, "If you make enough fuss I'll give in". Oh - and plenty of love, lots of give and take, and being able to distinguish genuine naughtiness from mistakes, or behaviour that you just happen to find inconvenient. Being a full-time mum was a help too. Children need you when they need you. When a 3-year-old's world falls apart at 10.00am, the fact that he's going to get half an hour's "quality time" with mum at 6.30pm is absolutely no help at all. Build confidence and trust at that age and you've cracked it!

Sue

[Derek]

The sixties...dubbed the permissive society..the time when women allegedly burned their bras (I never saw any burning  ;)) and women found their 'freedom/independance.

The pill came onto the scene whci maybe added to the permissive bit. Perhaps the male of the species took advantage of this and revelled in it.
Wasn't a bad time...you could still walk the streets in relative safety.

I was perhaps fortunate that one of the major influences in my young life were my grandparents who still had a bit of the Victorian values in them.

I still believe strongly in discipline and if this metered out (not with the use of violence) in the very early years then a child knows instinctively right from wrong and how to behave.  Time can then be spent on developing a loving relationship into adulthood
I am very proud of my two girls who now have two children of their own, being brought up in the same way I might add.

We are a close/loving family all round ...all down to the setting down of important guidelines in those early years

Derek

[tamsin]

I think too many parents focus on things that they and their children need (nice house in nice areas, holidays, big cars, lots of new stuff etc. etc). They think thay by providing all this they will make themselves good parents by showing how much they love their children materially, and so children are sent to nursery or minders. Children don't actually need stuff to be happy, they need to be loved, they need time and they need to be given boundaries in which to operate. This is a real shame for those who miss out on any of these.

As such parents are better off trying to spend as much time as possible at home, and should see being a carer at home as a privilege. I do, my baby is beautiful and I don't want anyone apart from her dad and I to shape who she is.

I don't think that the government providing my childcare would actually solve any problems as it would not encourage parents to spend anymore time with their children - surely rather the opposite?

Thus endeth the lecture!

[Obelixx]

Where I live, most mums go out to work.  High taxes mean two wages are needed.   Schooling starts at 30 months with a year of pre-school.  It is optional and children can go half days, whole days and some days.  Then there are three years of optional kindergarten, ditto.  During these years the children learn to play with each other, do team and individual craft and discovery projects and, most importantly, learn some self and group discipline.  They also start to learn Flemish, the other main Belgian language.

From the year the child turns 6, schooling is compulsory and the kids are like sponges, ready to soak it up.  They concentrate hard on mathematics and French grammar and spelling and also do craft and discovery projects.   They are tested every half-term to check on progress but it's not a big deal like in the UK.

The schools provide crèche facilities from 7am till school starts and until 6pm after school finishes.  The result is that parents who need these facilities are relaxed about getting to work on time and know that their kids are in a safe environment with their pals.   When they do get their kids home they have time and energy to spend with them.  I'm often amazed at the delight and patience parents here show towards their kids.  There is a visibly different attitude to other people's kids here too compared to the UK.   

There are also activities provided for out of school.  We have an academy of music, a circus school and a cultural centre all provided by the local council and all sorts of private and voluntary clubs for everything from archery to zen buddhism.  Kids here are used to doing things as a social group, regardless of income and background.   I live in the country between a village and a small town so there is a vast range of people here but no class divisions or exclusions.

I'm also fortunate to have been a stay at home mum but my daughter (10) very much enjoys her group activities.    It seems to me it's an investment for the future, having state support, if only to provide a framework for later adult social responsiblity.  We don't see binge drinking or the CHAV phenomenon, even in poorer inner city areas.   It seems to me that the balance between family and society care is right over here. 

[Robert_Brenchley]

I think you're right in that kids need both. We're social animals, designed (if that's the word) to need a much larger group than just the nuclear family, vital though that is. If you can maintain both the immediate group and the larger, and keep a reasonable balance, then you're probably on the right lines. Round here far too many families are isolated, and the result is that a lot of kids are drifting into street gangs, which offer the only larger community available to them.

[caz 406]

The stay at home mum concept is great and my Mum gave up a career in the police force to have us because it was the done thing then. I think it's great that women have the choice these days to work and or have a family but I've got friends who try to do both and they run themselves ragged. They try to give 100% to their careers as well as be the perfect parent and still do the shopping, housework etc. Then they beat themselves up mentally because one of the kids gets in trouble or their work isn't up to scratch. It's too much.
Personally I'm glad I'm self-employed and have no kids ;D Well I have a step-daughter who stays with us at weekends but she is extremely well-mannered and toes the line because that's how she has been brought up. She calls relatives auntie and uncle even though she is 17 now because it's what we think is right and proper. Hopefully she will instill the same values to her kids too.  :)

[Obelixx]

We never considered having kids whilst living in Harrow - two good jobs and salaries, heavy interest on the mortgage and expensive horse-riding habit.    Since moving here life has changed a great deal and we're much more relaxed and have the time and interest to devote to parenthood and I have the luxury of not having to work - as long as I don't mind not having the latest gadget/clothes/10pairs of shoes a year etc...  I think it's great if you can but feel more support is needed for those who do need the extra income.   I get plenty of "me" time during school hours and pre-school is such a short, important and fascinating period in a child's life - and such fun too.  I can see why your neighbour seems barmy.

[Merlins Mum]

As such parents are better off trying to spend as much time as possible at home, and should see being a carer at home as a privilege. I do, my baby is beautiful and I don't want anyone apart from her dad and I to shape who she is.

I don't think that the government providing my childcare would actually solve any problems as it would not encourage parents to spend anymore time with their children - surely rather the opposite?

Oh how I wish more parents, mums in particular felt as you do Obbelix, well done.

Too often parents are not at home for their children but that is not the fault of any government.   They didn't make it a law that all women must go back to work after the birth of their baby.  The most important things any parent can give their child is support, encouragement but most of all love.  I am so thankful that my parents gave me all of these things and never once did my mother regret having us, or wish she still had a career.  It is beyond my understanding why some couples have children only to let someone else bring them up.  They are not prepared to make sacrifices, they still want to have and do all the things they did before the children came along. 
Unfortunately we seem to live in a society where to many people can't take responsibility for what they do and how their children behave.  :(

MM