Topic: Seed Saving Circle 2023

[JanG]

Your list of contributions is growing apace, Galina. All very exciting.

Interesting to have your comments on Cherokee Trail of Tears. I have grown them this year from Markfield Rover’s contribution to the last seed circle. I was expecting them to be purple from the outset as I grew them many years ago and my vague memory was just of purple beans - faulty memory again. So it was a surprise when this year’s pods started off green and only gradually acquired the purple colouring. Now I’m reassured that this is the real McCoy!

It will be lovely to have that colouring with frosted seeds into the bargain.

[galina]

Sorry my Juanita Smith photos are upside down.  I tried to cure the sideways and have made it worse it seems.  Also needed to restart my computer and my phone before I could upload photos yesterday at all, then the phone lead had an intermittent.  Not my easiest day with technology and did not spot the error either.  Please rotate them for the airtable or I will try again Jang.     

[JanG]

To be honest I hadn’t noticed that they’re upside down as the pods are kind of pointed at both ends! But the leaves, stalks etc such have been a give-away. Such lack of observation! But I’m certainly happy to rotate them for the Airtable base so don’t worry.
Good luck with your technology today.

[markfield rover]

Talking of seeds…. We visited Pennard Plants in their walled garden in Somerset yesterday , they have occasional open days , 12 October next one , I am possibly the only one here within easy reach , the sort of place that makes one go weak at the knees.

[galina]

Did you take any photos? 

[JanG]

Am I right in thinking you’re also within reach of Adam Alexander’s base, Markfield Rover? You are indeed favourably situated!
I’m within easy reach of the Seed Co-operative and have visited a couple of times. It has been good and fascinating to see them grow.

[markfield rover]

Sadly I forgot to take pictures, was too in awe! I had mentally moved in . I did remember to buy seeds , one lady bought £100 worth , I like her style!
Yes Adam Alexander is just over the border and sometimes talks at the seed swap.
The last of the tomatoes have ripened , all gathered in.
Talking of seeing a company grow , I have some early Sarah Raven packets , no pictures  and plenty of space to write notes .

[galina]

I now also have enough seeds of lettuce Red Evolution to contribute to the circle.  Bought seeds originally from Adaptive Seeds.  Mine were a 'blacker' red that their photo shows and no green at the base of the leaves either.  This lettuce stands out in a salad bowl (just like the beautiful Cantarix lettuce seeds we were given last year).    https://www.adaptiveseeds.com/product/vegetables/lettuce/lettuce-red-evolution-organic/

Grows quite tall and goes to seed very late even in hot weather.  Leaves are a bit more crunchy than Cantarix.   

PS just read a bit more and wanted to share the history of this lettuce with you.  Red Evolution has 'evolved' (been bred) from lettuce Revolution, which in turn was bred from Lollo Rosso.

[JanG]

That’s a great deep red. As you say it’s striking to have some deep red in a mixed salad bowl. I also love the effect in the garden too. I really enjoy the look of an old- fashioned lettuce bed of mixed colours, in rows even!
The only other deep red I’m aware of is Bijou, which I think I shared a couple of years ago. It would be interesting to grow the two for comparison.

[galina]

Having grown both, they are both equally dark red here.  As is Relic, that I shared a few years ago.  And the best part is that the slugs seem confused by the dark red colour.  There is far less slug damage on these lettuces. 

[JanG]

I grew Relic in 2019 which I think was the season after you shared the seed. It wasn't quite as red for me, but unfortunately I don't seem to have taken any photos. Perhaps soil conditions? A good lettuce nevertheless.

I hope to have enough seeds of Brighton lettuce, which I found to be an excellent over-wintering green butterhead. The seeds came from Vital Seeds.

[galina]

I only had the one Relic plant this year thanks to voles destroying the others, but that was as dark.  Soil and sun intensity also play their part, so even in the same garden there can be differences from year to year.

Frank and Karen Morton from Wild Garden seeds are retiring.  Frank is a well known breeder, among others, of lettuce.  I understand that some of Frank's breeding work is being maintained by Real Seeds now.  It would be a crying shame if with retirement his varieties would disappear, so Real Seed's adoption is most welcome.  Frank Morton's lettuce creations are all OSSI pledged.  Last year Vetivert shared with me 2 of Frank's varieties and I would like to pass seeds on to the circle.

They are Flashy Troutback
https://www.wildgardenseed.com/index.php?cPath=43_72%22

and Flashy Butteroak. 
 https://www.wildgardenseed.com/product_info.php?cPath=43_73&products_id=156

 Now when Frank says 'flashy' this is true.  Vivid purple speckling that says Oh Wow! to the passer-by.  Troutback is a romaine aka cos lettuce, but its leaves are quite soft, whereas Butteroak's leaves are delightfully crunchy and can be harvested a few at a time. 

2 photos each of Flashy Troutback and Flashy Butteroak



 

[JanG]

That’s very interesting. Thanks for the update. I’d be interested to know where you read of Real Seeds’ involvement.
Real Seeds have offered Flashy Butter Oak and I believe Frank Morton’s Secret Mix for a number of years so I assume they’ve had some kind of understanding for some time.
I became interested in Morton’s lettuces back in 2016 and ordered about ten of his varieties from his company, Wild Garden Seeds. I’ve collected seed from some of them but the only one I’ve grown this year is Jester (which the man himself has said is his favourite heading lettuce) which unfortunately yielded a very small amount of seed. With the news that the Mortons are retiring, I’ll try all my 2016 seed next season and see what, if any, will germinate, plus any I’ve grown more recently. I’ll aim to pass on any I can successfully grow and collect from.

[galina]

Jang, you wrote  "That’s very interesting. Thanks for the update. I’d be interested to know where you read of Real Seeds’ involvement."

This is where I read it. 

"Frank & Karen have now retired and we are taking on maintenance of this incredible genepool on our farm in Wales"

https://www.realseeds.co.uk/lettuce.html

[galina]

I think I should make clear that all of Morton's lettuces are not absolute final versions with guaranteed uniformity like you get in commercial seed packets.  They are  intended to have small differences still coming out with every new generation.  The basic type is fixed, but there is still scope for variabilities, so that the gardener can select their best version for their growing conditions.  This way, Morton's varieties are uniquely suited to a larger growing community in various locations.  Tom Wagner's and Tim Peter's varieties are often also offered with that philosophy.  A broader genetic base for the gardener to make their personal 'final' selection. 

I have taken seeds from every plant to preserve as much of this diversity as I can for members of the circle.  Although both Vetivert (my donor) and myself have already, simply by saving seed and taking these lettuces a generation further, made some selection choices.   

[JanG]

Vetivert will perhaps clarify at some point whether her seeds came originally from Frank Morton’s wider mix (which both he and Real Seeds offer for sale) or from seed offered as Flashy Butter Oak (also sold by Real Seeds) and Flashy Troutback (quite widely available). If it was the wider mix then much more variability is to be expected.
I’m unsure of the relationship between Forellenschluss and Flashy Troutback. MoreVeg for example, offer Flashy Troutback and say its other name is Forellenschluss, but Forellenschluss is a much older lettuce, I believe. I’ve always guessed that Morton selected and possibly crossed a little from Forellenschluss and then added the ‘Flashy’ to its translated name. MoreVeg’s assumption that they’re the same might, in that case, be misleading. The original Forellenschluss is speckled to start with, hence the troutback name.

 

[Vetivert]

Hi, the seeds were sourced directly from Frank Morton's company in 2019. Packet labelled 'Wild Garden Mix'. The seeds I shared with Galina were from plants grown from this mix. I've no way of knowing what the exact cultivars in this mix are named, or even if they were all ever released. From the selections I made from this mix, If I recall correctly, what I did was name the seed packets 'Flashy Troutback-like' and 'Flashy Butteroak-like' or something to that effect. Those two look extremely similar, if not identical, to the cultivars released by Morton with those names.

As far as I'm aware, Morton selected Flashy Troutback from Forellenschluss for a more uniform population.

There was another 'Trout' adjacent selection from that mix. I cannot remember off the top of my head which one I shared with Galina but it'll be in my notes somewhere. One had greener, slightly thicker and more savoyed leaves. The other was distinctly more yellow and had smooth, flat leaves. Slight but noticable differences.

Apologies from being absent from discussion, time eludes me lately but shall have a lull in work in soon and hope to catch up shortly. Loving the look of Red Evolution! 

[Vetivert]

By the way, if you grew any of my contributions from last year, I'd love to know how you got on with them; germination rates, opinions, etc. The scabious self-seeded again so I haven't tried the seed batch from last season.

[JanG]

Great to hear from you again, Vetivert. I hope the work lull allows you full enjoyment of  harvesting and growing for a while.

Your dark-flowered scabious germinated very well and I've enjoyed the delightful rich colour. Similarly the calendula - excellent germination and good to have the different colour forms to add to a rather ordinary self-seeding gene pool.

All your French beans have germinated well. I've specially enjoyed the flat yellow pods of Uzice Speckled Wax and for a Romano-type it's drying down now quite quickly, and the seed is lovely too. Robert Hazelwood was good and early too.

Rugosa Friulana was probably my most prolific courgette so I'm very pleased to have that one to look forward to again. Rosalaba radicchio is growing away now and has produced very vigorous plants. I'm looking forward to seeing the colour develop.

I love the Oudorpse Bruins shallots. It seems a really reliable classic shallot and multiplied beautifully It's one I intend to keep going.

The only slight disappointment I had with your wonderful range of contributions was the Ambrosia tomatoes. I had trouble germinating Ambrosia Blue for some reason and the one plant I ended up with didn't develop any vigour but I will try again next year. I wonder whether anyone else had the same trouble. The flavour of the pink, gold and red (I didn't grow the Rose UBX) wasn't as sweet as I was expecting and, though perfectly pleasant, didn't seem particularly outstanding to me. Again I'd be interested in anyone else's opinion.

Thanks for prompting feedback. We have exchanged a few reflections but it would be excellent to swap notes rather more on last year's circle contributions and, like Vetivert, I'd very much welcome feedback on any varieties I shared.

[galina]

Hi, the seeds were sourced directly from Frank Morton's company in 2019. Packet labelled 'Wild Garden Mix'. The seeds I shared with Galina were from plants grown from this mix. I've no way of knowing what the exact cultivars in this mix are named, or even if they were all ever released. From the selections I made from this mix, If I recall correctly, what I did was name the seed packets 'Flashy Troutback-like' and 'Flashy Butteroak-like' or something to that effect. Those two look extremely similar, if not identical, to the cultivars released by Morton with those names.

As far as I'm aware, Morton selected Flashy Troutback from Forellenschluss for a more uniform population.

There was another 'Trout' adjacent selection from that mix. I cannot remember off the top of my head which one I shared with Galina but it'll be in my notes somewhere. One had greener, slightly thicker and more savoyed leaves. The other was distinctly more yellow and had smooth, flat leaves. Slight but noticable differences.

Thank you Vetivert for the full explanation of the history of these lettuces. Yes it did say 'like' on the packet from you, the significance of which had eluded me.  What you shared with me is the greener version of Trout most likely, not a yellower selection.  There was one packet, not two. The basic colour is green rather than yellow.   And what a joy to grow these.  Having grown Trout in the past, these were nothing like as vibrantly coloured as the Morton version on the same theme.