Author Topic: organic or not  (Read 2496 times)

ACE

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organic or not
« on: December 31, 2021, 13:25:39 »
Somebody put forward a motion to only use organic methods on one of the other allotment sites.  It was voted in by their committee and everything they have to do was put on a noticeboard which was pulled down and ripped up overnight. I don't hold with forcing people to use their plots organically. Good if they do but to make it compulsory is a step too far. I would have told  the idiot to go away in a reproductive manner.

saddad

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Re: organic or not
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2021, 14:16:54 »
I agree, good if they do, but it is no business of the committee to try and force such changes on existing tenants.

Obelixx

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Re: organic or not
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2021, 16:22:00 »
Much better to lead by example and show it's a good way to garden than to ram it down unwilling throats.
Obxx - Vendée France

gray1720

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Re: organic or not
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2021, 16:42:19 »
If I were you, Ace, I'd make sure you have plenty of surplus organic califlowers to give to them!

Once you've cooked one of those, you appreciate why people leapt on chemicals with joy when they came on the scene.
My garden is smaller than your Rome, but my pilum is harder than your sternum!

Tee Gee

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Re: organic or not
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2021, 16:52:30 »
I always saw the term 'Organic' a bit subjective, simply because no one seems to be able to give definition to the word 'organic.

For example, I did a Google and got this;

not using artificial chemicals in the growing of plants and animals for food and other products:

Does this mean you can use pure chemicals?

Does this mean you shouldn't give chemicals to cows to prevent tuberculosis?

Then there was the amino-pyralid problem where animals could eat treated pasture because it did not harm them, yet it is regularly recommended that gardeners use 'Farmyard manure'

Then there was an occasion on my allotment when one of the lady plot holders (a mother) said she would never give vegetables that had been sprayed with chemicals to her children, but later in the discussion she had no qualms about giving their children Calpol or similar drugs designed for children.

In the thirty or so years I worked my allotment, I looked upon 'chemicals' as plant medicine and like all medicines be they for plants or humans I only used them when needed not like some commercial growers who use chemicals as 'Preventative Medicine' meaning their plants were dosed whether they needed it or not!

I have thought about this subject for years and tried to discover when 'organic' growing was first used,  and as far as I can tell it was around the time supermarkets (or self-service stores) came to be.

Stores found that product waste increased as a result of customers searching through fruit and veg for items were the size and colour they wanted, and in the process they often bruised the product, hence the increase in rotting products.

To counteract this, the stores started looking to at better lighting and edible polishes to encourage people to select the product they wanted  from the top of the pile, this necessitated fetching in the boffins to create edible polishes, and this is when the chemical issue come into focus.

What the boffins found when they tested the various products, they found frightening amounts of fungicides and insecticide residues on the surfaces of various fruits & veg that had been put there by the 'growers'.

BTW; the chemicals of the day then were DDT, Paraquat, Nicotine to name but a few!

Around the same period, it was found that rivers were filling up with masses of aquatic plants, which was traced back to the water run-off from cultivated fields that had been treated with an excessive amount of artificial fertilser.

It was then (the 60s as I recall) that legislation was passed to control excessive use of fungicides/pesticides and fertilisers  and growers were asked to grow more "ORGANICALLY". But as always it was 'the amateur gardener' that had the finger pointed at them and access to such products was usually made under licence, something commercial growers could get, but the amateur gardener couldn't.

I think of it this way; If I am feeling poorly I will use an 'across the counter' drug or go to the doctor and get a prescribed drug,  so why can I not give my plants some form of medicine to make them healthy again.

So my motto is; Let common sense prevail, not some form of forced legislation!

ps Did you know that the 92% of the genes found in plants can be found in humans, meaning a little of what I fancy will do me good, so why can't this apply to my plants?

Happy New Year everybody and I hope every thing on the plot grows well in 2022.

Just think in 2022  the boffins might make booster jabs for our plants and give a whole new meaning to organic gardening :icon_cheers:







Palustris

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Re: organic or not
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2022, 08:38:43 »
And so far no-one has explained how a plant can tell the difference between a naturally occurring trace element or one that is added to the soil.
Gardening is the great leveller.

Obelixx

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Re: organic or not
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2022, 12:04:01 »
Just a few years ago on Beechgrove Jim did an experiment growing 2 identical types of tomato in identical pots and compost but feeding one lot with commercial tomato feed and the other with liquid comfrey "tea".   The latter did much better than the chemically fed ones.  He was so surprised her repeated the experiment the following year and got the same results and switched to comfrey tea thereafter.
Obxx - Vendée France

Deb P

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Re: organic or not
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2022, 16:50:36 »
Most directives that aim to direct the gardening methods of allotmenteers are doomed to failure I think….as long as they are not interfering with other plots by chemical drift or some such I’m happy for folk to do as they want. All methods have repercussions, including being tolerant of slower methods of clearing plots by excluding light instead of spraying. I’m interested how they were thinking they would assess/enforce such a policy? Had this been discussed with all members at an AGM?
If it's not pouring with rain, I'm either in the garden or at the lottie! Probably still there in the rain as well TBH....🥴

http://www.littleoverlaneallotments.org.uk

gray1720

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Re: organic or not
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2022, 19:05:37 »
I should probably confess at this point that our plots are supposedly organic, but the Secretary has observed that he has better things to do  than prowl round looking for non-organic usage (and our water comes from the Thames anyway, so gets the benefit of anything that goes in there upstream), and I am not averse to using a little of the stuff beginning with R as a gel weedkiller for the hedge bindweed - if I dig, hoe, AND weedkiller it, I can keep it back, any two of those and the stuff keeps me back. The real pisser is that it came in from a derelict plot next door...

My garden is smaller than your Rome, but my pilum is harder than your sternum!

ed dibbles

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Re: organic or not
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2022, 19:11:22 »
Votes at an allotment AGM have no legal force have they? It is not illegal to use garden chemicals therefore the vote can't be enforced.

Yes garden chemicals should be used responsibly and intellegently. One or two on our site use 100% organic methods.

You should see the difference in size and quality between their plants and my larger and healthier plants :icon_cheers:

Don't forget the whole universe is made of chemicals. :happy7:
« Last Edit: January 02, 2022, 19:13:08 by ed dibbles »

Beersmith

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Re: organic or not
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2022, 23:40:14 »
Voted in by the committee??

At our site it could only be voted in by a majority at an AGM. Also the local authority is the final arbiter on any rules, so unless it had LA support individual plot holders would be free to ignore the rule without sanction.

That said, I have no problem with anyone who chooses organic methods and I try hard to be very careful about my own use of of herbicides, pesticides.  Minimal use and only when absolutely necessary. In any event it would seem almost impossible to enforce especially on a large site like ours.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2022, 23:51:25 by Beersmith »
Not mad, just out to mulch!

Tiny Clanger

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Re: organic or not
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2022, 02:56:42 »
Does "organic" mean jot using Magnesium sulphate? I thought that was OK as its a naturally occurring substance.
I expect to pass through this world but once; any good thing therefore that I can do, or any kindness that I can show to any fellow creature, let me do it now; let me not defer or neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.

Deb P

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Re: organic or not
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2022, 11:01:08 »
As per Tee Gees post above, the definition seems to be difficult to agree. I always thought organic principles were developed simply to reduce the use of the many chemicals that were freely applied to edible produce at the time, that were later post development found to be potentially harmful to humans? Thus the comparison between wanting to avoid giving sprayed produce to a child and giving a child a researched and licensed paediatric drug is not really a fair one. I feel fortunate as a grower of food albeit on a small scale that I am
lucky to have control over my own produce in this way, everyone else has to put their faith in transparency of suppliers/ government telling us what they are using and using safe products…. and that it a whole other can of worms that I have no desire to open or debate!🤣
If it's not pouring with rain, I'm either in the garden or at the lottie! Probably still there in the rain as well TBH....🥴

http://www.littleoverlaneallotments.org.uk

gray1720

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Re: organic or not
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2022, 13:35:15 »
Does "organic" mean jot using Magnesium sulphate? I thought that was OK as its a naturally occurring substance.

This is where it starts to get interesting. Various copper compounds have been licensed as "organic", but anything with copper in is potentially quite toxic - google Parys Mountain to see how slowly copper mine waste is colonised by plants. On the other hand, nicotine isn't licensed for garden use, but it is inarguably natural - and very toxic, and extremely non-selective as to what it kills. So which is "safe" and which is "organic"? 
My garden is smaller than your Rome, but my pilum is harder than your sternum!

 

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