Author Topic: Voting restrictions.  (Read 625 times)

Palustris

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Voting restrictions.
« on: September 07, 2021, 16:29:40 »
Please sign this petition!  It is against changes which would mean people need to show photo ID in order to vote.

speakout.38degrees.org.uk/campaigns/dont-force-people-to-produce-id-to-vote?

I recommend ticking the no box to say that 38 Degrees can't contact you, if you're not already on their mailing list, because otherwise they send an awful lot of emails.
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Voting restrictions.
« on: September 07, 2021, 16:29:40 »

Beersmith

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Re: Voting restrictions.
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2021, 22:32:04 »
This is well worth supporting.  Voting fraud by impersonation is virtually non existent. Having voted in numerous parish, local authority and national elections I have never once tried to cast a vote and been told "you appear to have already voted".  Equally I have never met anyone who has experienced this either.  Returning officers are required to record such cases and inform the police in suspected cases.  A typical constituency has about 70,000 voters and it would be obvious if it was happening on any scale.

But there is another issue that really bothers me. Using tax payer money to set up the systems to issue the cards to those who do not already have suitable ID.  It is going to cost many millions, and it will fall on cash strapped local authorities.  A colossal waste of money fixing a problem that doesn't exist.

I strongly suspect a cabinet minister will turn out to have a family member or friend that has just set up a company to produce such cards and will be awarded a huge contract to print them.  £50 a pop anyone? Printing business cards doesn't come cheap you know.
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Tee Gee

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Re: Voting restrictions.
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2021, 10:00:07 »
My reason for signing up is;

I was brought up to believe that a person is innocent until proven guilty. This smacks of I am guilty and it is up to me to prove I am innocent.



Paulh

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Re: Voting restrictions.
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2021, 11:05:39 »
To put the arguments for the other side (I'm undecided, by the way), voter ID has been required in Northern Ireland for many years and hasn't caused a problem. There have been concerns about voting fraud in local and parliamentary elections in (for instance) Tower Hamlets. And ID is needed for a lot of other things in daily life!

Tee Gee

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Re: Voting restrictions.
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2021, 12:05:28 »
Without trying to appear racist I would say anyone born in the UK should not need to show a passport, however people from outside the British Isles domiciled in the UK should.

e.g. A bit like America's Green Card at least until they are granted British Citizenship.

Having said that; I don't know enough as to who the cheats are! So perhaps if I knew, I could give a more informed opinion!

Palustris

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Re: Voting restrictions.
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2021, 13:33:37 »
Question. If we go into Postal voting so that my wife with no photo id card can still vote, how are they going to check for 'impersonation' then?
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Obelixx

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Re: Voting restrictions.
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2021, 13:39:51 »
House of Commons website

”The types of ID required include passports, driving licences, PASS scheme and Blue Badge cards, and some travel passes. People without existing photo ID will be able to apply for a free voter card from their local council to use in the polling station. Research commissioned by the Government found 96% of respondents had suitable photo ID with a recognisable picture.”

When I lived in Belgium I had an ID card which showed my status as an EU but not Belgian citizen.  I had the right to vote in local and EU elections tho not parliamentary.   As a non EU citizen but with the WARP rights to settle in France I have a an ID card too but no voting rights since Brexit.   Such a system could clearly be used in the UK.

There have been cases of voter fraud but it's impossible to determine how much it goes on undetected.  ID cards would make it much more difficult.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2021, 13:47:19 by Obelixx »
Obxx - Vendée France

Beersmith

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Re: Voting restrictions.
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2021, 17:26:48 »
Question. If we go into Postal voting so that my wife with no photo id card can still vote, how are they going to check for 'impersonation' then?

Well exactly.  A good example of why this is not really about stopping voter fraud.  Features of our voting system that have weaknesses like the postal vote arrangements are ignored.  Instead a big fuss is being made about voting fraud by impersonation which is very rare.

Others have pointed out that some countries have a national ID card and that pretty much prevents any fraud.  It is a valid observation but a national ID card is not what is being proposed.  I would actually support a national ID card system , (same for everyone) but the current government would run a mile from that. They would make a case about personal freedom, state surveillance, government intrusion, not needed for honest citizens,  etc.

One comment that I thought was simply wrong is a claim that there is no way of knowing the actual level of voter fraud by impersonation. Perhaps not exactly, but there are numerous things that are known about the voting system that taken together prove that it is very low.

With work, research and care it might be possible although there is a good chance it would come to light, but one impersonation is just a single vote. To have any effect in an election this process would have to be repeated numerous times. Even in a marginal constituency you'd need hundreds of similar events to make a difference.  Try keeping that hidden. It doesn't happen because to have any influence on an election it would need to be done on a massive scale. You would need an veritable army of impersonators.

If you think voter impersonation is happening in the UK and we need to spend tax payer money to combat that, could I tempt you to buy a device guaranteed to protect you against attack by Lions or Tigers.  Guaranteed anywhere in the UK. Only £100 and for an extra £25 extended coverage against wolves and bears. (Exclusions apply. Not available to circus and zoo employees).

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Tee Gee

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Re: Voting restrictions.
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2021, 19:58:07 »
Talking of Identity cards, I do believe I still have mine from many years ago.

Added to which, I still have  my indenture card proving I served a 5-year apprenticeship.

The things some people hold onto often defies belief!

Do you think they would still be valid if I need some form of proof to vote :dontknow:


saddad

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Re: Voting restrictions.
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2021, 20:17:43 »
I have my original NI Card, issued in 1977, yes it is a piece of card... and in my wallet!

Beersmith

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Re: Voting restrictions.
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2021, 21:28:53 »
There have been concerns about voting fraud in local and parliamentary elections in (for instance) Tower Hamlets.

There have indeed. One mayoral election was overturned because it was blatantly corrupt.  Serious fraud of various forms took place. Money was used to buy votes as were favours, gifts and promises of housing. There was financial fraud too over spending legal limits and various slander and false accusations levelled at other candidates.  Payments were made to canvassers, and canvassers were found to have claimed the winning candidate was actually representing another party.

The fraud was really appalling. It also included postal voting irregularities, tampering with ballot papers, false registration on the electoral register, use of false addresses and people attempting to vote twice and voter impersonation.  The perpetrators did not represent any of the main political parties. It was really disgraceful.

Of all these mechanisms that can be used to commit voter fraud, the current proposal would have no effect at all except on voter impersonation.  I am not aware of any other proposals that would provide safeguards against areas of weakness in the electoral system.  Why is that? Why a huge fuss about just this one issue.  I remain highly suspicious.
Not mad, just out to mulch!

 

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