Author Topic: Failed attempts to hand pollinate squashes and courgettes for seed saving  (Read 1496 times)

JanG

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I’ve been very keen to try to produce seed from some courgette and squash varieties I’m growing, but have found it a much trickier operation than I realised.
I understand the basics of taping or bagging (which is better?) a male and female flower one day and then attempting hand pollination the next when the flower opens, but actually carrying it out hasn’t proved at all easy!

Some problems:

* Often there isn’t a female and male ready at the same time. After the wet weather we’ve been having it seems there’s another rush of male flowers and hardly any female
* I believe the flower opens for one day but I can’t always tell whether a female flower is about to open or has already opened and is now past its prime day. More observation needed!
* To mimic bee pollination I’ve read on another group that it’s a good idea to use several male flowers to pollinate one female
* With courgettes I need to sacrifice a plant to seed saving totally in order to let the pollinated courgette grow to large maturity for seed harvest. This is likely to stop the plant producing other courgettes for consumption young. Is this the case? Squash are OK because you can save the seed when preparing them for cooking and eating.

So all in all I’m feeling rather defeated at the moment. Has anyone been successful in this tricky operation? Any tips for carrying it out successfully would be gratefully received. It seems that time is running out for getting pollinated fruit with time enough to reach maturity.

saddad

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As you say... a tricky process. I buy in my squash seeds rather than save my own... I save peas french beans and tomatoes, much easier. Have been tempted to grow out some of the self sets which turned up in me asparagus bed from the winter mulch of home made compost but decided against it!

galina

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Yes done it many times.  To be honest, not always successfully either.  The last two weeks it might have been too cold for pollen.  Needs to be at least 16C, better 20C.  Therefore time the handpollination to when it is warm enough.  In UK this might be lunchtime.  Advice from USA always says do in the morning after dew has gone but before it is hot, but they have continental summers further south than UK and it gets too hot for pollen.  There is still time during July and even August. 

There is no way round using a female and a male at the right stage.  Easier when you have a few plants.  The right stage is fully coloured the afternoon before but not opened.  Because flowers only live one day.  Which is the book advice.  But again in UK when maximum temperature gets to 15C like last week, this does not apply and makes the whole thing trickier.  It really is easier during a week with stable summer weather.

I have put squashes in the greenhouse, because the right conditions occur more often in the greenhouse.

Several male flowers yes -  i f  y o u  h a v e  t h e m !  Sometimes you are lucky to get the one and you only need the one, even if several is better, one will give you seeds.  So what if my 3 Striata d'Italia last year only had 12 and the second fruit only had 3 viable seeds in them, this is enough for me, even if it is not enough for seed sharing.  Oh and the third one?  This is also something that happens in UK.  They have a tendency to be parthenocarpic.  The female thinks it has been pollinated, the pollen for whatever reason wasn't quite right.  These 3 courgettes stored well and I opened them in March.  The third one was parthenocarpic, grew a fruit without viable pollen, stored well too - and was seedless!  So 3 'successful' handpollinations and 15 seeds.  Success or tear your hair out?  Yes it does tend to stop a plant, but it is me who wants to stop it.  To prevent the plant aborting my precious handpollinated fruit, I take any other fruit off very young. 

I have stopped using tape, too difficult and messy and don't use bags anymore either.  I just tie with one
loop of medium thickness garden string, but not a full knot only the first part  It is perfectly good enough to hold the flower shut and easy to open. 


Couple of photos.  This is the right stage to isolate a flower.  If it looks like this in the afternoon, go for it.  The second photo shows how I tie them shut.  This picture was taken in the morning just before I hand pollinated and you can see clearly that the flower would have opened had it not been tied. 

Keep going, it does get better, but please know that all you experience I also know only too well.  Good luck :wave:





galina

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Jan by the way, we did eat those Striato d'Italia in March, a bit watery but fine in a stew as a 'filler' vegetable.  :wave:

galina

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Just to add, when I shared Striata d'Italia with the seed circle a few years ago, I managed over 30 seeds in just one fruit.  It is not always difficult, sometimes things come just right, but you never know what you get.  Keep going, do more rather than less for best chances and you will get there.  :wave:   

JanG

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That's great, Galina. Really helpful and encouraging!

I shall persist with new hope, using string. I'd tried elastic bands as Real Seeds recommends but found I tended to mangle the flowers in the process. String with half a knot sounds much kinder.
The timing has become clearer too, following what you say. Interesting how temperatures affect what flowers and therefore pollen are produced. I think sometimes I was mistaking flowers which have opened already and then closed up again for ones not yet open. Your photo helps.

So with courgettes you can enjoy very young fruit without the plant aborting your precious seed producing one? In your experience how large is it safe to let the young ones grow? Three or four inches?

I've just realised that your Striata d'Italia must be what I'm growing as Italian Striped! Did you eat them in March to allow time for the seeds to mature or for another reason? Do you need to leave courgettes for seed saving on the plant till they turn yellow like cucumbers?

JanG

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Have been tempted to grow out some of the self sets which turned up in me asparagus bed from the winter mulch of home made compost but decided against it!
Saddad: I've saved seed from squash and had perfectly good results from Uchiki Kuri and Sunshine types left to open pollinate over the last two or three years and growing alongside other varieties. So far they've come true to type and been vigorous. So you're self sets might have been good!
Also this year I'm growing from open pollinated seed from Strawberry Crown. We'll see what the results of that are like. Maybe I've been lucky so far and I certainly wouldn't pass open pollinated seed on to anyone else. The results could be a waste of time, effort and space I'm sure..

I also have some self sets but don't even know whether they're squash, courgettes or cucumber! Is there a way to tell them apart at the three or four leaf stage, I'm wondering. 

galina

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Jan I am glad you are feeling better about the whole thing.  Needless to say I am the only person I know who uses string, but having tried the recommended alternatives, this is what works for me.  Yes I also found rubber bands mangle the flowers and are difficult to remove.  And the string from the male flower can just be transferred to mark the handpollinated fruit and the string from the female flower gets used to re-close the handpollinated flower, so that bees have no access after handpollination. 

A poor summer can indeed make it much harder.  If only the flowers had been ready in May with all the wonderful sunshine.  It can be frustrating.  Young fruit as and when they are of use in the kitchen.  While I always try to grow seeds from early fruit,  sometimes this is not possible and I also take away any older fruit.  This is difficult for winter squash, where you might already have a reasonably developed fruit, but definitely not ready for harvesting yet. 

I usually let the seeds mature until about Christmas time, this year it happened to be later.  Another variety showed signs of deterioration earlier (Long Pie), so these were used first.  I had one fruit with a reasonable amount of seeds, the others were for eating.  Long Pie is meant for storage, Striata not, go figure why they kept so well!  Leave them on the plant for as long as possible, but they don't turn yellow on the plant.  They get a sort of yellowish tinge in storage, the green stripes go yellowish the rest dull cream, but other squashes have much better storage colours.  So at the first sign of frost, take them in, cure them in the sunshine, say on a sunny windowsill, then leave them to mature seeds a bit further.  When you see storage colours, the seeds are definitely ready. 

I guess it just translates as Italian Striped, one of the better courgettes in Northamptonshire as they are early, robust and keep going.  :wave:

« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 10:40:52 by galina »

galina

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Saddad, with winter squash there is no risk growing rogues.  The only risk is with courgettes which could have crossed with decorative, bitter courgettes.  :wave:

saddad

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I'll check the asparagus bed then... and if a couple have popped up over the weekend let them live!


galina

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TeeGee your way describes manual pollination, not isolation and handpollination for saving pure seeds.  I make this distinction, because I have spoken to many who thought this is what they had to do to save pure seeds and it is not. 

The larger size organza wedding favour bags or homestitched close weave net curtains make good blossom bags, if somebody wants to go down that route.   :wave:

 
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 15:26:31 by galina »

JanG

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TeeGee, Thanks for these. As Galina points out, your method is manual pollination, presumably to help the productivity of the plants.

The Seed Savers Exchange instructions are helpfully clear and describe the full method for ensuring pure seeds.

I have tied up a promising flower of Crown Prince today. Only one likely looking male flower but fingers crossed for tomorrow.

 

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