Topic: Mare's Tail

[Obelixx]

No idea but please note that glyphosate does not biodegrade in the soil.

It becomes inactive when not in contact with green growth in your garden or arable crops but seeps into water courses where it is active and affects aquatic plants as well as turning up in water consumed by humans as well as any pastoral critters - cattle, sheep, pigs and wildlife - as well as aquatic creatures.

Unless you have acres of mare's tail the simplest treatment is to hoe or strim it regularly and let it dry before composting or else make the purin I mentioned.   Any plant starved of its food factory - the foliage above ground - will weaken and die tho maybe not overnight.
 

[Harry]

No idea but please note that glyphosate does not biodegrade in the soil.

It becomes inactive when not in contact with green growth in your garden or arable crops but seeps into water courses where it is active and affects aquatic plants as well as turning up in water consumed by humans as well as any pastoral critters - cattle, sheep, pigs and wildlife - as well as aquatic creatures.

Unless you have acres of mare's tail the simplest treatment is to hoe or strim it regularly and let it dry before composting or else make the purin I mentioned.   Any plant starved of its food factory - the foliage above ground - will weaken and die tho maybe not overnight.

Thanks,
I guess I've been taken in by Glyphosphate manufacturers. I'm no chemist, but even i can see that it is a complex molecule, likely to have a complex set of by products.
I'm drawn to this Ammonium sulfamate because it's a much simpler chemical, with a fair chance of breaking down completely.

Anyhow, for now, I only see two UK sellers on ebay and the cheaper of the two could be anybody, bagging up any sort of white crystal and who would know what it really is. Could be anything from baking powder to Sodium Chlorate and we'd be none the wiser.

[Harry]

No idea but please note that glyphosate does not biodegrade in the soil.

Thanks,

I'm drawn to this Ammonium sulfamate because it's a much simpler chemical, with a fair chance of breaking down completely.

I've bitten the bullet and bought some of this Ammonium Sulphamate ' compost  accelerator. It will be used to accelerate the composting of marestail, bindweed and the most persistent of perenial weeds, 'In Situ' 

Please don't scold me for pushing the envelope on what is legitimate use. Like many others, I see this as safer and more appropriate than the non-banned glyphosate. I'll only be using this as a spot treatment of those 'compostibles'
Will possibly mix it with either a soap mixture, or maybe wallpaper paste, to help it soak in.

I'm a little concerned that the seller could be sending me any old bag of crystal and I won't KNOW that this is what it purports to be. So, there will be some experimentation away from my veg growing areas. I'm thinking I'll use a little to nuke compost some weeds in my path. If they die, that will be the proof that it is indeed a herbicide and if/when they return, that will be evidence that it's not something daft like sodium chlorate. I'll also attempt to germinate some peas in compost that has been 'pre-poisoned' by this stuff.

Let the flames begin? Do I have any support here from 'fellow composters'?

[Obelixx]

You can just pee on your compost heap.  It's a great accelerator too and convenient.

[Harry]

You can just pee on your compost heap.  It's a great accelerator too and convenient.

Thanks. I do in my own garden 'tardis' composters, but it would be a bit too public at the allotment.
Beside. My pee won't kill marestail. 

[Obelixx]

No, hoeing will do that and composting all the debris will lead to soil improvement so pee away to get it going.

[Harry]

No, hoeing will do that and composting all the debris will lead to soil improvement so pee away to get it going.

Sorry Obelixx. I'll hoe and I'll pee, and my composting is going grear guns. But no way any of the marestail debris is going into my compost. That 645t4rd stuff gets taken offsite.
I've read the ideas of making a fungicide out of it and I may try that, but for now it's public enemy number one.

[picman]

I my experience no safe chemicals will touch mares tail. My plots were over run with it. when digging a deep trench for beans i could find the network of black roots 60cm down... the only answer it to dig it up where it pops up , get it all, every little bit left will grow again. So 23 years on , i have nearly irradiated it , nearly ...  well apparently it was around at the same time as the dinosaurs ... 

[Harry]

I my experience no safe chemicals will touch mares tail. My plots were over run with it. when digging a deep trench for beans i could find the network of black roots 60cm down... the only answer it to dig it up where it pops up , get it all, every little bit left will grow again. So 23 years on , i have nearly irradiated it , nearly ...  well apparently it was around at the same time as the dinosaurs ...

Which begs the question "If we can't eradicate it from our growing beds, to what extent does  it inhibit our efforts to grow food?" "When is good enough, good enough?"
E.g. I have shoots popping up amongst my spuds and peas and beans because I sowed before i knew I had this stuff. 
Those damned shoots grow about 2 inches per day and are outgrowing my seedlings. I chop them off every couple of days to weaken them, but it's a thankless task and I can't dig the roots out now without disturbing my seeds. Will my spuds and courgettes, peas and beans ever be able to outcompete the marestail for light and coexist and prosper in spite of marestail
?
We know marestail is our number #1 enemy, but does it wreck our crop. It's vast root network doesn't seem to be as choking as those other enemies, bindweed and couch.

Basically, am I pi55ing in the wind?

I've read that marestail topgrowth naturally dies back in winter? does that mess up our ability to nuke it with weed killer compost accelerator?

[Obelixx]

Forget chemicals for nuking!!  They are horrendous for soil organisms from microbe level to invertebrates and bigger things you can actually see.

Just keep cutting or hoeing back the stems you can see until the potaitoes and other crops get big enough to cope and swamp it themselves.   Once the spuds are ready for harvest, fork them out and separate and thoroughly dry out any marestail stems and roots then bin or compost them.   Hoe and rake the soil thoroughly then cover your soil with cardboard and wet it before planting your next crop through it.

The cardboard will restrict light and weaken marestail growth and make it easier to see/water/nurture your follow on crop.   Keep doing this with all your crop rotations and you will eventually win.  If you don't like the look of the cardboard, cover it with greenery such as pulled weeds, grass cuttings, potato haulms etc and let it rot down in situ. 

An don't forget the maretsail "soup"!!   It's good for :

Fights the spread of plant diseases, including cryptogamic diseases: downy mildew, powdery mildew, rust, scab, peach leaf curl, etc.
Preventive fight against rust, blister, brown rot and scab
Repellent capacities against mites and leek worm

[Harry]

Forget chemicals for nuking!!  They are horrendous for soil organisms from microbe level to invertebrates and bigger things you can actually see.

Just keep cutting or hoeing back the stems you can see until the potaitoes and other crops get big enough to cope and swamp it themselves.   Once the spuds are ready for harvest, fork them out and separate and thoroughly dry out any marestail stems and roots then bin or compost them.   Hoe and rake the soil thoroughly then cover your soil with cardboard and wet it before planting your next crop through it.

The cardboard will restrict light and weaken marestail growth and make it easier to see/water/nurture your follow on crop.   Keep doing this with all your crop rotations and you will eventually win.  If you don't like the look of the cardboard, cover it with greenery such as pulled weeds, grass cuttings, potato haulms etc and let it rot down in situ. 

An don't forget the maretsail "soup"!!   It's good for :

Fights the spread of plant diseases, including cryptogamic diseases: downy mildew, powdery mildew, rust, scab, peach leaf curl, etc.
Preventive fight against rust, blister, brown rot and scab
Repellent capacities against mites and leek worm

Thank you.
I take your organic advice with gratitude. On Glyphosphate, I concede that it is a bit evil. The sulphamate will get experimented with, but I accept that is being a bit defiant against yourself. Please don't take it personally.

I'm going to try the approach "Never let it see a Sunday". That will be hoeing, plucking or pulling every shhot, every week, before they reach 3 inches. I seek reassurance that that will get me through a growing season, albeit with weed roots amongst my crop.

I can get plenty of cardboard and I am laying it out between my 'plants' to reduce the open ground area that can be appropriated by the weeds. Hopefully every little helps. Marestail doesnt seem to care about being covered. The shoots seemed to love breaking the surface while under tarps. It's like they bob their little heads above the soil to see what's going on :)

Interesting comment about leaving hoed weeds and green 'stuff' on the surface. That feels a bit contrarian, but I think I get it. Once uprooted or damaged, let the weeds languish and rot where they fall?

You seem to reassure me that my spuds etc really will suppress photosynthesis by weeds. I hope you are right.

I'm currently too wary to do anything with the marestail waste other than take it offsite for disposal.

[Obelixx]

Marestail roots can go down for metres so there's plenty of energy there for making new shootsuntil you reach the point where you've removed enough of the shoots and often enough to prevent any energy being resupplied and then the roots will weaken.

Do try and save some of your hoeings for making the purin as it can help against potato and tomato blight as well as peach leaf curl and all sorts of other fingal problems:

1kg horsetail stems
9 litres rainwater

Crush the stems and steep them in the water, covered, for 2 weeks or till it all turns black.  Do not use a metal container.   Strain the resulting goo and keep in sealed bottles.  Dilute 1 part purin to 9 parts water and spray in spring or autumn when fungal problems are most prevalent.

There are several threads about marestail/horsetail on the GW forum and one chap says he weakened his by spreading lime which would be a good idea anyway when/if you plant to plant brassicas.   

[Harry]

Marestail roots can go down for metres so there's plenty of energy there for making new shootsuntil you reach the point where you've removed enough of the shoots and often enough to prevent any energy being resupplied and then the roots will weaken.

Do try and save some of your hoeings for making the purin as it can help against potato and tomato blight as well as peach leaf curl and all sorts of other fingal problems:

1kg horsetail stems
9 litres rainwater

Crush the stems and steep them in the water, covered, for 2 weeks or till it all turns black.  Do not use a metal container.   Strain the resulting goo and keep in sealed bottles.  Dilute 1 part purin to 9 parts water and spray in spring or autumn when fungal problems are most prevalent.

There are several threads about marestail/horsetail on the GW forum and one chap says he weakened his by spreading lime which would be a good idea anyway when/if you plant to plant brassicas.

OK. You persuaded me. 1kg of stems will be easy to harvest and the site IS prone to blight. Do you think I can make the 'tea' in time for spraying this year's tomatoes and spuds?

[Obelixx]

It takes 2 weeks.  See recipe.

[Vinlander]

I remember reading about someone recommending sowing turnip seeds in quantity to control marestail/horsetail - I can't remember if it was in this forum or not (and the A4A search engine isn't up to it), but I got the impression that the writer had tested it.

OTOH the only reference I found (using Google) had found it in a 1917 book & was honest about being unaware of any proof, but muddied the waters even more by adding thistles & bindweed to the list.

It also occurs to me that turnips could be regarded as a family including swedes & mangelwurzels.

Anyway it would be good to hear of any tests - anyone prepared to let their turnips run to seed in the cause of Small Science?

Cheers 

[Harry]

Forget chemicals for nuking!!

Just keep cutting or hoeing back the stems you can see until the potaitoes and other crops get big enough to cope and swamp it themselves.   ...
Hoe and rake the soil thoroughly then cover your soil with cardboard and wet it before planting your next crop through it.

The cardboard will restrict light and weaken marestail growth and make it easier to see/water/nurture your follow on crop.   Keep doing this with all your crop rotations and you will eventually win.  If you don't like the look of the cardboard, cover it with greenery such as pulled weeds, grass cuttings, potato haulms etc and let it rot down in situ. 

Thank you.
I take your organic advice with gratitude. On Glyphosphate, I concede that it is a bit evil. The sulphamate will get experimented with, but I accept that is being a bit defiant against yourself. Please don't take it personally.

I'm going to try the approach "Never let it see a Sunday". That will be hoeing, plucking or pulling every shhot, every week, before they reach 3 inches.

Oh hum. The battle continues.
Had a session today after last topping the marestail last Wednesday. In five days, some 4 inchest or so of new shoots had appeared pretty much all over my cleared area, and amongst my spuds and sown seeds. It was most disheartening. About 45 minutes to go back over those areas, pretty much just tearing the tops off. I couldn't try to get to many of the roots because of proximity to my seeds, some of which have yet to germinate.

This is not the way it is to be! Unacceptable use of my time. If I need to spend that amount of time just on this one bloody weed, then I need to get smarter.
During todays session, I started to clear another bed, untended and infected by this pernicious b*****d. This next bed is to be a test environment for the approach of growing through barriers. I'm going to lay a half of the bed with cardboard and half with some weed suppressing sheet (Not plastic, It's some permeable stuff I have found in the shed). I'm going to chop some holes in it and sow through those holes. My thought is that if the marestail can only get through the holes, I'll have a smaller area to control.
I expect the card will not last long, and the sheet stuff will probably accumulate dirt and weeds on top of it. But I need to buy time.
Hoeing does not cut the mustard, because these weeds seem to just lap it up. I daren't leave the chopped shoots on the soil in case they regenerate roots? Can it do that?
Anyway. The war continues. I'll update this thread if I make progress... Or if I don't.
,
 

[Obelixx]

It will be hard work this year but perseverance will weaken it and it will become manageable and easier to control as the seasons go by.  Do try liming the soil as it thrives in acidic conditions.

[Harry]

It will be hard work this year but perseverance will weaken it and it will become manageable and easier to control as the seasons go by.  Do try liming the soil as it thrives in acidic conditions.

Thanks.
Update:-
Literally 24 hours after a long session of ripping off marestail shoots, I returned to the plot. Another 30 mins plus of ripping more shots off and roughly a half gallon of shoots harvested from maybe 25 sq metres. I will make fungicide tea out of those. But it shows how incredibly quickly this stuff pops up. Amazing.
Some of the shoots, you can see how they heaved soil up on their heads in big lumps :)

My potato bed looks like there's been sumo wrestling on it where I've been rooting MT out.
Other small weeds are being mostly ignored for now.

Now... If I hoe, can I leave the ripped off shoots where they lie? It would save me a chunk of time.

[Paulh]

On the hoeing, in practice, yes. If the hoe separates the top from the root, the top will die. Most annual weed roots will also die; those perennials or others that regrow, you will weaken with the hoeing or remove by hand when larger. Some weeds will be pulled out without being severed; these will also dry out and die in fine weather. In wet weather, you run the risk that they will be bedded back in by rain and recover. But you get them on another day.

[Borlotti]

I had mares tail on my plot but had loads of runner beans, strawberries, gooseberries, apple tree etc etc. I was told 'bend it like Beckham'. Joe Swift gave up but he only got an allotment in Enfield for TV. I had mine for 15 years and enjoyed it and my allotment friends. Do a bed at a time and dont panic. My raspberries did OK with the mares tail, not a perfect allotment, courgettes will grow anywhere.
Our new garden has bamboo, canes very useful for wigwam for runner beans.
Dont give up and dont panic.