Author Topic: Apple questions  (Read 4569 times)

Vinlander

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Re: Apple questions
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2019, 11:58:25 »
Can I slightly rephrase one of the questions, has anyone tried growing cordon apple trees?  Any thoughts?

Cordons are probably the most-used method for new (spur bearing) trees in small suburban gardens - they are absolutely fine, reliably produce a maximum of apples from a minimum of space and work, & also cast less shade than anything except stepovers (& maybe very narrow pyramids).

For me the big advantage is that you can let the ones you like get a bit wider and prune the mediocrities to a few fruit a year (or 'demote' them by moving them to less premium positions - but some excellent apples need more time so it's better to keep them going at 'tickover' eg. D'arcy Spice does deserve its high reputation but mine took 10 years to really live up to it).

Or are you talking about 'supercolumns/supercordons'? They restrict you even more than they are, because there are so few varieties, and last time I looked none of them would get into my top 40.

Cheers.
With a microholding you always get too much or bugger-all. (I'm fed up calling it an allotment garden - it just encourages the tidy-police).

The simple/complex split is more & more important: Simple fertilisers Poor, complex ones Good. Simple (old) poisons predictable, others (new) the opposite.

davholla

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Re: Apple questions
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2019, 12:24:28 »
Can I slightly rephrase one of the questions, has anyone tried growing cordon apple trees?  Any thoughts?

Cordons are probably the most-used method for new (spur bearing) trees in small suburban gardens - they are absolutely fine, reliably produce a maximum of apples from a minimum of space and work, & also cast less shade than anything except stepovers (& maybe very narrow pyramids).

For me the big advantage is that you can let the ones you like get a bit wider and prune the mediocrities to a few fruit a year (or 'demote' them by moving them to less premium positions - but some excellent apples need more time so it's better to keep them going at 'tickover' eg. D'arcy Spice does deserve its high reputation but mine took 10 years to really live up to it).

Or are you talking about 'supercolumns/supercordons'? They restrict you even more than they are, because there are so few varieties, and last time I looked none of them would get into my top 40.

Cheers.

Well I was talking about super columns but as no one had used them,  I thought that I should look at cordons instead.  Presumably they grow at angle or is that wrong?

Beersmith

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Re: Apple questions
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2019, 22:45:31 »
I have spent some time reading various stuff on the internet.

I'm not 100% sure about this but as far as I can tell from my research super columns simply seem to be standard varieties grafted onto an M27 rootstock and pruned to produce one strong central columns without any other framework. All the other pruning seems to be designed to promote fruiting spurs along the main column. The result is to produce a tree that is very productive for the space used. Unfortunately the tree will not retain its column shape without correct pruning.

You seem to lack confidence about pruning. I'm sure you could learn the skills needed to prune a column, or any other shape like a cordon, a fan, a step over, or whatever you choose.

Most of my apple trees are bush shape grown on M9 rootstock, so I am reluctant to offer advice on pruning for restricted shapes but it is a skill that can be learned. Also there really are plenty of varieties to choose from. You could choose almost any young variety on an M27 or M9 rootstock  and prune it to your desired shape.

The answer to your dilemma is learning the pruning skills necessary to deal with restricted shapes. Start with a young tree with a rootstock and scion of your choice and prune it to the shape you want. You don't need an "off the shelf" solution. I think instead you need to make a determined effort to learn about pruning. That way you will be in control not relying on others to find ready made solutions.

Be confident in yourself. Go for it!
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Vinlander

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Re: Apple questions
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2019, 09:45:31 »
I'm not 100% sure about this but as far as I can tell from my research super columns simply seem to be standard varieties grafted onto an M27 rootstock and pruned to produce one strong central columns without any other framework.

This is the kind of information that the purveyors of columns wouldn't want you to know - so it sounds right.

I always assumed that the weird varieties they choose (none of them highly regarded) might be tailored to help the shaping - but they would also increase the "novelty value" to the uninitiated and help hide any underlying mundanity of the technique (every experienced gardener avoids novelty like the plague - it's always an excuse for doubling the price).

Forgive me for repeating the common knowledge about ordinary cordons specifically and M27 in general.

Cordon apples work with spur bearers only (though tip bearers are less common anyway). The extra vigour of triploids means more pruning and a bigger tree needing a wider space but it still works.

Everything I've ever read about cordon plums says don't bother.

M27 is a very weak rootstock needing a proper stake, especially if the tree is forced to grow taller - becoming a longer lever.

M27 is too weak to do well on all soils so it's not for everyone, though heavy mulching will fix lighter soils. Heavy soil needs more work - but bear in mind that most of the stuff you dig in to fix it will rot away - I suppose M27 are easy to dig up & replant but I'd rather go for using something like gravel & grit to lighten a soil indefinitely.

Some nurseries encourage you to use M27 and others advise you against it (even though that means you will buy less trees). Obviously I'm more inclined to believe advice given that doesn't double the profits of the giver.

Basically M27 needs everything 'just so' to produce the yields trumpeted, and even a partial shortfall might result in biennial bearing - apparently, (I've always used M26 for cordons).

Cheers.

PS. Has anyone experience of using a less finicky rootstock with a very dwarfing interscion?
With a microholding you always get too much or bugger-all. (I'm fed up calling it an allotment garden - it just encourages the tidy-police).

The simple/complex split is more & more important: Simple fertilisers Poor, complex ones Good. Simple (old) poisons predictable, others (new) the opposite.

Beersmith

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Re: Apple questions
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2019, 21:11:10 »
I'm not 100% sure about this but as far as I can tell from my research super columns simply seem to be standard varieties grafted onto an M27 rootstock and pruned to produce one strong central columns without any other framework.

Basically M27 needs everything 'just so' to produce the yields trumpeted, and even a partial shortfall might result in biennial bearing - apparently, (I've always used M26 for cordons).

Yes, a sensible cautionary comment about M27. I try to keep things simple by growing a conventional shape like a dwarf bush on M9. But with limited space I have found M27 useful to add additional apple varieties, but taking up far less room than the alternatives.

Like yourself there are many very capable gardeners on here who would be fully capable of providing the extra bit of care and attention needed by an M27. However, Mr Davholla seems a little inexperienced and perhaps lacking in confidence. (No criticism intended). So my advice was perhaps not the best.
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davholla

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Re: Apple questions
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2019, 10:40:04 »
Like yourself there are many very capable gardeners on here who would be fully capable of providing the extra bit of care and attention needed by an M27. However, Mr Davholla seems a little inexperienced and perhaps lacking in confidence. (No criticism intended). So my advice was perhaps not the best.

I am very lacking in confidence because although my family tree is going well, I am not really expert.  Also there are time problems.  I think I will measure the space I have this weekend and see what I can grow.
Thank you all and now this year I will get all the apples and not the rats!!!

Russell

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Re: Apple questions
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2019, 20:17:13 »
Yes, indeed learn about pruning but not just like that.
To keep your trees to a manageable size (you really are going to manage them, aren't you) then when they reach target dimensions you put them under restrictive pruning. whilst they are still growing they are under unrestrictive pruning.
Therefore you will need to learn about TWO pruning systems! Most people struggle to implement one.
I like to think of them as construction and maintenance.
While under construction you must have a very clear idea of the eventual size and shape of your tree, and by winter pruning stimulate it to grow the way you want, not the way it wants to grow.
As different parts of your tree reach their targets, change them over to maintenance i.e. summer pruning.
It is quite normal to be pruning the same tree both summer and winter, the changeover happening gradually. What I find difficult in this situation is deciding which shoots are to be summer pruned and which shoots are to be left for winter. It is about this time of year that I go round doing my winter pruning, and keeping score of (a) shoots summer pruned wrongly that I need for winter and (b) shoots not summer pruned that should have been.
All trained trees need eventually to be under restrictive pruning and almost all free-standing ones unrestricted. Most of my trees are oblique cordons but I'm also involved with espaliers, fans and pergolas.
My latest project involves three dwarf pyramid trees of three different varieties. They are hard to prune right but a new tree comes into crop quickly and yields high class fruit, with plenty of exposure to sun light and air.

 

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