Author Topic: Problems with Manure again  (Read 3216 times)

Digeroo

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Problems with Manure again
« on: July 08, 2018, 15:39:38 »
This has not raised its ugly head for several years.  I believe that rain water causes less problems, so with the dry weather and use of tap water, we are again having problems.
My latest recruit to solve this is yoghurt.  The weed killer is supposed to breakdown because of bacteria in the soil.  But that did not happen, so I thought we had the wrong bacteria.  I tried to find out the right kind without success, so used an old tub of yoghurt.  I put 125gm into a watering can.  Watered round the plants they seem to recover quite quickly.
I believe the problem arrives with animal feed.  I have had zero success trying to work out where it comes from.

Beersmith

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Re: Problems with Manure again
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2018, 11:47:44 »
I found your comment worrying, but I didn't understand some of the things you mentioned.

The original problem was caused by a herbicide called aminopyralid. This chemical was very persistent. It did not breakdown easily and was able to pass through the digestive system of both horses and cows and still be active after months of composting. However, I think it's use was then restricted so you would be very unlucky to hit the same problem today. Also plants did not generally recover whatever you used to water.

So you seem to be suggesting the same problem is occurring again but with a different herbicide.  Because you mention the chemical breaking down in the soil I suspect you are thinking of glyphosate, but you seem to be arguing the bacteria in your soil are not breaking down the chemical effectively until watered with yoghurt solution. Also you are not using it yourself but it is getting onto your plants indirectly from manure.

I'm not offering any opinions at this stage but simply trying to make sure I understand your argument. Is my understanding about right or have misunderstood your points?

Cheers

Not mad, just out to mulch!

Digeroo

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Re: Problems with Manure again
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2018, 17:05:04 »
The use of aminopyralid is restricted by a set of stewardship guidelines.  There is no way of knowing whether people are keeping to this.  There is no way of tracing back animal feeds to the field they were grown in.
I struggled with aminopyralid for some time (two full seasons), and found that rainwater was helpful.  As soon as it rained the problems started to disappear. 
I do not think it is a different weedkiller but have no proof. 
According to Dow, aminopryalid breaks down in soil, but we found this did not happen in our soil.  It took 18 months.  The second year I grew most of my crops on straw bales on plastic sheets.  It was only year three that I could grow things again.  I had a whole compost bin full of contaminated manure and it was not until I got the yoghurt onto it that I finally sorted it out.
I am not convinced I have been unlucky, the manure comes from the same horses and presumably the same animal feed supplier.  If someone in the chain is using weedkiller incorrectly it will continue to filter through.
 
I recommend that people do not become complacent and test all manure before use (bean test).  Never bury it.  I have been lucky due to a nasty cough I have not had any manure this year.  I had two compost bins of last years left.  But one plot holder has been badly affected. 

Last years was great, I even managed to root a couple of figs in it.

Tee Gee

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Re: Problems with Manure again
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2018, 17:40:51 »
Quote
If someone in the chain is using weedkiller incorrectly it will continue to filter through.

As I understand it the only changes were that farmers can still use it but they must tell anyone who buys stuff (hay/silage/Manure ) from them that they have used it on their fields. In the case of animal feeds this is then the responsibility of the buyer to tell people that the manure may contain weedkiller residue.

So basically it is all a case of pass the buck and you are in the clear.

Beersmith

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Re: Problems with Manure again
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2018, 00:04:33 »
Thank you for the clarification.

This is most disturbing. It seems totally clear that aminopyralid is extremely persistent and far from breaking down in soil quickly it takes months or even years to degrade. Yet compost heaps team with bacteria of all sorts.

Once again corporate interests get priority over the common good. That it seems to be back in common use  with a meaningless code of conduct or  "stewardship" is deplorable. Nothing more to say.
Not mad, just out to mulch!

Digeroo

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Re: Problems with Manure again
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2018, 14:35:26 »
So here are the Digeroo manure guidelines. 

1.  Use broad beans to test the all manure before application.
2.  Stack all manure until tests are clear.
3.  Do not bury manure, if on the surface it can be raked off again if necessary.
4.  Keep well manure away from the roots of the plants.   
5.  In case of problem try rainwater and yoghurt.

I believe that those with alkaline soils and alkaline tap water are at most risk of problems.  I wish I could get someone to test this theory.  But a rough tally of those with the worst problems a few years ago put them in alkaline areas.  But I am fairly sure, I carried in 5 ltr bottles of rainwater to test my theory, and found plant recovery quite quick.

I think I will try a bean test on the offending manure now, and see what results.  Due to various problems I did not do it earlier this year. 

This is interesting.
http://www.wrap.org.uk/sites/files/wrap/Clopyralid%20Report.pdf
I table 6 is list one study where 5 soil samples were tested, and the half life of the Aminopyralid was between 31.5 and 533 days.  So it seems to be saying in some soils it take nearly 1.5 years !!!Years!!! for half  !!!Half!!! of it to break down. :BangHead: :BangHead:   And we seem to have the wrong type of soil.   
Table 3.  Is very worrying  just how much weedkiller is being used on crops.




Vinlander

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Re: Problems with Manure again
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2018, 11:20:30 »

5.  In case of problem try rainwater and yoghurt.

This question is probably the one most likely to be my stupidest for some time, but were you using you using the hose or the dipping tank?

Tapwater is nearly sterile when it comes out, whereas dipping tank water is a mass of bacteria from root washing, algae colonies etc. etc. (as evidenced by its ability to render glysophate inactive instantly).

Cheers.
With a microholding you always get too much or bugger-all. (I'm fed up calling it an allotment garden - it just encourages the tidy-police).

The simple/complex split is more & more important: Simple fertilisers Poor, complex ones Good. Simple (old) poisons predictable, others (new) the opposite.

ancellsfarmer

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Re: Problems with Manure again
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2018, 12:38:36 »
From coloquial account upon another forum site, it was expounded that the aminopyralid, which is systemic, lays dormant in the killed plant fibres until released by decay/composting, when it becomes effective again. The instruction by manufacturer to farmers is to 'retain ' the killed plant, ideally on the field it was grown. However, the range of crops treated has been increased, now including oil seed rape. With the prospect this year of diminished production of forage and bedding due to shorter crops from the drought, the temptation/necessity to utilise such materials as are available, and the fact that supply, often through third parties to ourselves , causes issues cannot be a consideration. If leaving the resulting supply to rot , as has been the advise, is not going to eliminate the problem, then we are all facing an ongoing uncertainty. We need to move away from mainstream agriculture as a source.
More thought must be put into ways of sourcing a suitable, uncontaminated, supply of essential (to us) plant based organic material to increase soil carbon and humus. Fertility may not be a consideration as it can be found within a good soil, naturally, or sourced from poultry manures where bedding material is not an input. Green manures, grown on-site , are one method. The 'mowing' of plot surrounds, the growing or gathering of bulky materials, such as comfrey, hogweed etc thence composted, another. Woodchip is freely available, but takes several years to rot down. Biochar, or simply badly burnt woody material all helps.
Freelance cultivator qualified within the University of Life.

 

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