Author Topic: Watering  (Read 2579 times)

DrJohnH

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Watering
« on: May 23, 2018, 07:17:45 »
Quick question- how much are you watering your plots? it's been remarkably dry here in the Peak District recently and we have been watering everyday. 

The plants are the usual vegetable suspects-cabbage, cauliflower, carrot and parsnip seedlings, broad beans, beetroot, lettuce, turnips, onions, garlic shallots etc. and some soft fruits.  Our soil is reasonably loamy with quite a bit of compost mixed in to the top few inches. 

Are we overdoing it?  What guides you in how much you water and how often?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 07:25:50 by DrJohnH »

Pescador

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Re: Watering
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2018, 07:43:43 »
I water-in the transplants and maybe give them another soak 3-4 days later. After that they're on their own.
Established plants do not need watering every day.
If you're going to water, give them a proper soak. 24 hours later check the water has gone down to the root zone 10-15cm down. If it hasn't, then you didn't put enough on. If it has, then you certainly don't need to water again at that time!

The most important tool when thinking about watering is a trowel, to dig down and see what's happening in the root zone. The look of the soil surface is irrelevant.
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squeezyjohn

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Re: Watering
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2018, 08:30:58 »
I don't have any mains water on my plot - so I only have what I can collect and store - and in any dry spell it will run out if I try to maintain moist looking beds everywhere I have a crop.

Everything pescador says is true ... it's the water deep under the soil where the roots are that needs to be moist - during dry weather, a big watering can full is barely enough to wet the soil a couple of inches down per square yard and that is more damaging than it is useful because it makes the plant grow roots upwards towards the surface of the soil - if you do deep watering less often (half a watering can full per plant) the water will go right down and the roots will grow downwards where the soil is naturally more moist anyway.  When I plant out my seedlings I try to create a depression in the soil around each one so that when I water, it pools around the plant and only goes where it is needed rather than running off to the sides.

Of course all different plants have different requirements.  For those you mentioned - after the initial watering in, I wouldn't dream of wasting water on brassicas, root veg, or established raspberries, gooseberries and currants provided they don't have wilting leaves.  Strawberries are more shallow rooted and they can benefit from a good deep water as they try to set fruit (especially if they're in a raised bed) - onions and garlic too are putting on the growth at the moment which will determine how big the bulbs will eventually be - and they will do this more readily if they are well watered (and fed with something nitrogen rich)

But loads of water less often, rather than a constant sprinkle, apart from when you have just sown seeds or transplanted plants, will lead to healthier and more resilient plants.

ancellsfarmer

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Re: Watering
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2018, 09:04:46 »
Remember the hoe.
Its
 good to tackle any weed competition and working the surface reduces loss by evaporation.
 Better is to also mulch between rows.
 Best is to use plenty of organic material- compost - as a source of humus and let the wriggly workers do it for you.
 Newly seeded crops will benefit from surface watering so long as it is sufficient to maintain the moisture BELOW their root level. As yet my plot has not dried, except on the top 25mm.
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Tee Gee

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Re: Watering
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2018, 09:44:12 »
I am with the others ....I water at planting out time then they are on their own.

Underglass I play the weather and how the plants look which could mean. I water daily or possibly only twice a week.

I agree with the hoeing and weeding.

Another thing I always think is if you wet the ground it creates  a good skid pan for the slugs and snails to slide over to get to your nice succulent seedlings. In fact when I am liming I like to do it after planting out as  seem to think the slugs/ snails don't like to go over it as I think it does something to their underbellies.

In pots I lift the pot/s to see how heavy they are and then decide if they need watering or not.

Another thing I have thought of but not sure if there is any truth in it and that constant watering creates shallow root systems whereas if they have to seek their own moisture they develop better root systems. I must admit I see the logic in this.

Then there is the truth of the matter I absolutely hate watering particularly with a hose as. It always seems to do too much damage as I pulll the hose behind me it seems to always curl around plants and flattens them or it gets snagged on a cane or stone or something.

Added to that I never get to know how much water each plant is getting so sometimes all I end up doing is slaking the dust.

So you see I don't think  there is a definitive answer to.........when to water!....it only comes with experience! In my opinion.

Hope that helps...Tg

Digeroo

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Re: Watering
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2018, 10:58:53 »
I think the answer depends on what your conditions are like.  If experience where you grow means you do not need to water then you do not need to water.  If on the other hand you have very dry conditions.  I am on a gravel bank and the water simply disappears. 
So I see no point in letting plants die because they cannot find the water that other people are so adamant I have got.  Sorry folks but you are talking nonsense.  Not watering might work for you, but it certainly does not work for me.   
It also depends how much rain you get, we get less than most in this country. 
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 11:02:29 by Digeroo »

cambourne7

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Re: Watering
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2018, 11:28:24 »
having to water daily at the moment as have been moving plants about quite a lot in the garden and its dry clay so once its hardened up i am stuck though it had rained last night but checking some of the plants there quite dry again so guess not.

DrJohnH

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Re: Watering
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2018, 11:56:42 »
Everyone,

Thanks for all the advice.  Much appreciated.  I'm still on a learning curve as it's my first year on an allotment in the UK. 

Previous gardening climates have been very different...

John

johhnyco15

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Re: Watering
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2018, 14:17:28 »
here on the sunshine coast its the driest part of the country already we have had no rain for a month forecast not to get any in the the next two weeks however i  only water when planting again when i feed twice monthly the liquid feed is put into a 3 " pot which is next to the plant so it goes direct to the roots this way very few weeds germinate as its dry on the surface i mulch every year in autumn 3 inches of manure and 3 inches of leaf mould the soil on planting is always damp my plants are healthier crops have more flavour less weeding and greater yields on the other hand if your soil is of poor structure then you need to water as a lack of fibrous material drys out pretty fast but still i would use pots in which to water so it gets to where its needed if you have the space try it both ways water one and not the other and compare hope this helps
johhnyc015  may the plot be with you

Pescador

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Re: Watering
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2018, 18:40:53 »

So I see no point in letting plants die because they cannot find the water that other people are so adamant I have got.  Sorry folks but you are talking nonsense.  Not watering might work for you, but it certainly does not work for me.   

Digeroo, I certainly wasn't implying that you shouldn't water. What I did say was check to see if it's needed, and if it is do it properly and not just dampen the surface.
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Digeroo

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Re: Watering
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2018, 07:32:09 »
#Pescador.  But other are suggesting there is no need to water.  There is a thread about this almost every year.  It really pisses me off.  What people are basically saying is I am alright Jack because I do not need to water.   
Someone new came onto our site and told me the same thing.   You do not need to water.  Then had the gall to state that nothing would grow and there was something wrong with the soil.  Yes there is something wrong with the soil, there ain't no water in it.
So perhaps a test.  Dig a hole and fill it with water.  If there is water still visible after several hours you have a drainage problem.  If like me you can never ever fill a hole with water even for a few minutes and the water simply disappears instantly then you have a drainage problem and need to water constantly and mulch, and improve the water holding capacity of the soil.  Plants cannot find water that is not there.

squeezyjohn

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Re: Watering
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2018, 08:13:18 »
#Pescador.  But other are suggesting there is no need to water.  There is a thread about this almost every year.  It really pisses me off.  What people are basically saying is I am alright Jack because I do not need to water.   
Someone new came onto our site and told me the same thing.   You do not need to water.  Then had the gall to state that nothing would grow and there was something wrong with the soil.  Yes there is something wrong with the soil, there ain't no water in it.
So perhaps a test.  Dig a hole and fill it with water.  If there is water still visible after several hours you have a drainage problem.  If like me you can never ever fill a hole with water even for a few minutes and the water simply disappears instantly then you have a drainage problem and need to water constantly and mulch, and improve the water holding capacity of the soil.  Plants cannot find water that is not there.


Sorry Digeroo - I have to admit I have never gardened on a gravel bank or anywhere where water just disappears as you describe.  I'll stick by my advice that you need to get the water deep down to the roots though ... even if your conditions mean you need to water more often than I do - the same rule holds for not just wetting the surface.

Having said that - it rained all last night!

BarriedaleNick

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Re: Watering
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2018, 14:54:32 »
Interestingly, for me at least, I have a new plot.  My old one is solid clay and my new one (actually OH) is sandy, dry and dusty.  We haven't got into the meat of the season yet so it will be interesting to see how they both fair.  So far I have had little cause to do much watering except for the seedlings and direct sown stuff like the carrots.  The clay holds water but it is hard to get the stuff in once it cakes.  The sandy soil just drains through and plot legend has it that it has traditionally been the most watered plot (it used to be a builders yard where he kept sand - most of the rest of the site is clay).  I will see how we go!

My personal take on watering is that plants need water to live and to draw up nutrients from the soil and in an ideal world the soil would be moist most of the time.  However I think squeezyjohn nails it with the advice to water well when you do it - I see so many people waving a can at a bed which would maybe wet the soil down to a couple of mm only to evaporate in an hour or so..
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small

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Re: Watering
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2018, 20:40:47 »
you just have to get to know your soil and its requirements, everywhere is different. I get fed up with people saying you shouldn't water, if I didn't then i'd have no veg. I'm not going to let stuff die on a point of principle! So, to the OP, do what seems to get the best results though it may take a season for you to find out what's best. Good luck!

ACE

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Re: Watering
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2018, 19:05:10 »
I have always worked on the assumption that if you water every day the plant roots will not go down to find any of its own and get reliant on the hose. I puddle in then water the next day. Except for yesterday when the thunderstorms did it for me. After that I only water if the plants look as if they need it, then it is a good soaking then left again. Better things to do than standing there with a hose. Asparagus gets plenty when they are growing a big bucketful each.

Vinlander

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Re: Watering
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2018, 16:54:16 »
Better things to do than standing there with a hose.

I couldn't agree more - I feel like a spare part when doing it.

On my old allotment, before I moved in the 80s, some of the dipping tanks were a few feet higher than my plot, and it was a great idea to siphon the water out - this had many advantages:

1) It got me out of the queue for the hose fitting.
2) It doesn't affect anyone else's pressure much (you can squeeze and peg/crush the hose a bit if it threatens to empty the tank - 'cos that would annoy the dippers).
3) It produced a good trickle which was ideal for...
     a) puddling transplants while working on the next,
     b) watering big stuff like courgettes etc. - you could get something done in the minutes it took to give each plant a good drink, then move the hose and go back to sow another row of seed or plant another seedling or hoe a m2 or so,
     c) constant pressure, that doesn't wash stuff away or wet more surface than you need or "overload" the slope so it goes where you don't want it leaving a riverbed that has to be dammed before the water will stay put again
     d) doesn't splash tomatoes.
     e) good for filling watering cans in a leisurely fashion so it doesn't become a mad scramble

Incidentally, the easiest way to start a siphon at the tank is to just push the hose against the mains outlet for a few seconds to fill it (ours are next to each other) - it can be done without a connector - and then immediately pop your thumb over it and dunk the hose in the tank. The weight of water in the hose will be able to overcome any small air bubble. I used to loop the hose through the tank water before 'presenting' it to the mains so I could quickly pull the end under while turning off the tap, then quickly switch hands & pull the loop over the side so the water in it was an extra pulse.

I do miss it.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 16:59:31 by Vinlander »
With a microholding you always get too much or bugger-all. (I'm fed up calling it an allotment garden - it just encourages the tidy-police).

The simple/complex split is more & more important: Simple fertilisers Poor, complex ones Good. Simple (old) poisons predictable, others (new) the opposite.

BarriedaleNick

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Re: Watering
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2018, 08:51:14 »
See I actually like standing around with a hose - gives me a pause from working hard and a chance to put my head up and have a good look round!

One thing that has stuck me on OH's plot - they have a really decent water supply but it is metered.  I asked how much a year and it is, in a bad year, £4000!  That really made me think.  The problem is that there is no incentive for individuals not to over water as the total cost is divied up among everyone, so you may as well use your "fair share"..
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Vinlander

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Re: Watering
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2018, 11:25:13 »
The problem is that there is no incentive for individuals not to over water as the total cost is divied up among everyone, so you may as well use your "fair share"..
"The tragedy of the commons" a well-known and much-feared consequence of communal living - analogous to the "prisoner's dilemma". It gets worse the bigger the common - the New Forest being the worst (if I remember correctly).

However if it gets that bad, £4000 per plot is probably more than the cost of having keyed meters installed on every outlet. A simpler cheaper solution would be to make every small cluster of plots a spur off the main, with a simple meter on the spur (long hoses are too easily spotted and punished - though we had night-time abusers on our site so even that's not safe without keying).

Of couse there are far worse excesses in the private sector, for example  the system where the private utility water providers are allowed to pump out river water for free when their reservoirs run out - so they don't build any and the rivers die - the free market is always the first thing to take the micturation (probably literally in this case) and do it at every opportunity.

No cheers to this.
With a microholding you always get too much or bugger-all. (I'm fed up calling it an allotment garden - it just encourages the tidy-police).

The simple/complex split is more & more important: Simple fertilisers Poor, complex ones Good. Simple (old) poisons predictable, others (new) the opposite.

 

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