Author Topic: No dig?  (Read 2831 times)

Digeroo

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No dig?
« on: April 27, 2018, 17:42:29 »
A new plot holder has arrived and covered part of the plot will a thick layer of recycled compost.  For a few days it looked good.  But after only about 10 days the plants from below have surfaced.  So now the plot is covered in Rhubarb, nettles, buttercups, goosegrass, couch, hogweed etc etc.  Please can someone explain how the no dig system works.  Are you supposed to weedkill first?

BarriedaleNick

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Re: No dig?
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2018, 18:14:48 »
I think if your are covered with nettles and the assorted nasties mentioned you have no real alternative to dig them out. 
The general advice seems to be to cover the ground with a thick layer of cardboard and then loads of manure but even then nettles and bramble will laugh at your efforts..
Failing that plant through membrane.

However most no dig fans realise that you may need to dig out deep rooted weeds before you start - there are a few evangelists of course but most are pragmatic I would say.  I don't dig much any more - hoe weeds off and add as much mulch as I can.
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ancellsfarmer

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Re: No dig?
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2018, 19:21:10 »
The principle means of control is by excluding light. All plants you will find on a vegetable patch need light to photosynthesize. Some plants (weeds) have auxillary stores of energy. Couch grass, brambles, bind weed, marestails, buttercup all have some reserves below ground. However, if you are persistant, and prevent light reaching their leaves, that energy stored is eventually exhausted.
Therefore, a covering to exclude light is needed. Cardboard, from large corrugated cartons,(think washing machine packaging), which can be sourced for nothing, makes an ideal cover.
It is best to mow with a rotary mower, down to soil level, first, having picked out all debris (old bikes, supermarket trolleys, logs, bottles !! etc) . You do not need to remove the mowings.
Upon the laid cardboard, which should be overlapped on all joints by 4", you should apply 3-4" of 'compost'
This can be garden compost, well rotted manure, green waste compost, mushroom compost, or a mixture of what you can get(preferably without weed seeds). Ideally this would be done at 'back-end' (October?)
However, I did mine in March 2016, converting a patch of (poor) agricultural grazing field.
 Once the cardboard has soaked, you can plant directly*, making holes with a trowel and not revealing the underlying, dying vegetatation to the light.Any 'plugs' you remove can be composted.
For more details see :
http://charlesdowding.co.uk/
He publishes and sells from the site, his excellent books with more detail still.
 I thoroughly recommend.
*plants grown in pots/modules are best at that stage. Seeding is possible once you know you are not letting surface weedseeds into the party.
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squeezyjohn

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Re: No dig?
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2018, 19:31:01 »
Yeah - no dig doesn't work on a new plot that is a healthy wild jumble of weeds - you simply can't start that way.  I've heard people try to suggest you can lay down cardboard and then cover with a foot of organic matter (have you any idea how much physical stuff that is if you're trying to cover most of a full plot? You'd need a couple of HGVs!)  Maybe this approach works if all you're converting is an established lawn ... but the following perennials absolutely have to be dug out or they will be there forever:

Nettles
Couch grass
Brambles
Raspberries where you don't want them
Horseradish where you don't want it
Docks
Bindweed
Creeping buttercup
Ground Elder
Horsetails
and a couple of other ones I've got that I don't know the name of

No amount of smothering will get rid of these ... sorry ... most are connected by the roots in a huge underground network - if completely covered the roots will remain there taking in the nutrients - but the plant will emerge at the edge of the covered area.  The roots could be covered by carpet for years and as soon as you take it off they will emerge unscathed, bindweed is especially good at this!

A good old fashioned dig with meticulous root removal when you start a bed will allow you to immediately begin growing on it and you can transfer to no-dig from then on with all the benefits it has.  It won't take long for the soil to regain its structure.  From my experience I reckon you'll miss some perennials and when they emerge you'll have to dig down to get the remaining bits of root out - and of course you'll still have all the annuals and perennials popping up as seedlings.

I don't really call what I do no-dig so much as no-walk gardening, as I have defined beds which I stay off - I try and mulch as much as I can and disrupt the soil as little as possible - but I have to dig sometimes ... I suspect everyone does really.

ancellsfarmer

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Re: No dig?
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2018, 18:09:44 »
I agree with what you have said Squeezy
 but the poster did not say that the plot was derelict or overgrown before the attempt was made.
Its stated that "Rhubarb, nettles, buttercups, goosegrass, couch, hogweed" have emerged. If these are mowed off and correctly covered upon overwintering weeds, then in my experience, they will die.
 Rhubarb is not usually a weed, but obviously if you choose  to change the use, then its best removed- with a spade.
Its certainly correct that couch and nettles if established from a preceeding neglect, they will require further action.
Glysophate would deal with this, or preferably, mechanical extraction.
This was not the original question.
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nodig

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Re: No dig?
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2018, 21:34:31 »
The trick to getting rid of deep rooted weeds is to dig them up with a sharp spade - I know it sounds amazing but it does work.  It is called the 'deep dig system' - I think I will write a book about thie radical gardening technique and make lots of money. 

squeezyjohn

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Re: No dig?
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2018, 22:50:32 »
Hey nodig ... you're not having a dig at me are you  :toothy10:

Digeroo

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Re: No dig?
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2018, 06:51:05 »
Thank you all.  You  have very much confirmed my thoughts about the limitation of no dig.  I think I can add various to the list.  Thistles, wood avens, hogweed. buttercup.  I think the whole list is coming through.   I don't think there will be much horsetail but I have a nasty idea that there is bindweed ready to put in an appearance. The previous guy brought it in.

I did a sharp intake of breath when I saw it.  But have learned to keep quiet.  It just seems to have fed the weeds and there are looking very strong.  And the digging will be more difficult because of the compost.

ancellsfarmer

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Re: No dig?
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2018, 09:22:42 »
I think we are beginning to reach a watershed of division as to the proper use of techniques of land use. In my view, the plot is properly used to produce food throughout the year. Many manage to plant and harvest two, if not three crops in each year from the plot. Alternatively, if a crop is not planted, a ground cover such as a green manure, or possibly a black cover to exclude light to prevent weed development. Only in extreme cases of neglect should there ever be developed, woody weeds. Such should be treated/removed before plots are re-assigned.
I have seen many allotments which receive a (brief) makeover in mid spring, some haphazard planting and , perhaps, half hearted crop taking . Some are then ignored until mid spring, for the cycle to continue. This is improper land use and should be stopped. Most areas have extended waiting lists of folk who might, just might make a better job of them.
The discussion should focus on utilisation not technique.
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Tee Gee

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Re: No dig?
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2018, 09:54:28 »
Quote
The discussion should focus on utilisation not technique.

Totally agree!

squeezyjohn

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Re: No dig?
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2018, 11:17:28 »
The discussion should focus on utilisation not technique.

That's the nail on the head ... it doesn't matter what approach you have - if you don't visit your allotment regularly enough then you can't possibly keep on top of it. 

Sadly there is no waiting list on our site and many unpopulated allotments which are reservoirs of weed seeds ... perennial roots eager to feel their way under the fences ... and rabbits.

Digeroo

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Re: No dig?
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2018, 12:30:21 »
We also have a lot of empty plots.  The weather has been very difficult.  Too cold, too wet, too hot!!  Just been down to plot, the wind was quite cold.  Only two of us braved it. 

I am concerned that with almost half empty that the farmer will decide to give up. 

I am hoping he will get in some pigs again to sort out the empty plots. They will make short work of any weeks.   The plots will soon be ready for planting, and after pigs everything grows like crazy.

Digeroo

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Re: No dig?
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2018, 02:30:29 »
The problem is that our plots were reclaimed land from gravel working.  They had been pasture for some time.  But are surrounded on three sides by lakes which are now nature reserves.  So there is a huge reservoir of weed seeds both in the soil and blown in.  And I think the deer and manure bring in weeds as well.   It only takes a few days for the weeds to take over.  Weeding has to be constant. 

squeezyjohn

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Re: No dig?
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2018, 09:18:40 »
I'm the same Digeroo ... I don't think there's a risk our site will stop as the landlord, St. John's College Oxford, is essentially an absentee landlord and it's been allotments forever.

But not all allotments are equal ... I can see why urban allotments, sheltered by housing all round with running water and amenities are oversubscribed.  Out on the wild-west allotments, the idea of cleaining the soil of weed seeds is a joke, the wind just blow more in, completely impossible.  Each of our plots is protected by its own rabbit fence, but the deer just jump straight over, the rabbits can bite and push their way through the bottom, absolutely everything has to be covered, and if you're next to a vacant plot, perennial weed roots push their way under the fence every single season!

Having said that, I still try my hardest to keep to no-dig whenever I can ... the soil here is glorious, and if I keep feeding it and don't destroy the soil structure it definitely gives better results.

ancellsfarmer

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Re: No dig?
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2018, 10:21:34 »
SQJ
Do you harvest by mowing, the adjacent/vacant plots? The greatest challenge to no-dig, in many cases ,is obtaining sufficient compost in a cost effective manner. The resultant cut material could be well composted and utilised. Done at intervals to defeat seeds setting.
More work ,agreed but positive on two levels. Would your 'landlord' sanction self-help; or contribute towards a mutual gain? Just a thought. I am fortunate in receiving donations of FYM/Composted waste and woodchip.
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