Author Topic: Weed killers containing Glyphosate  (Read 2723 times)

picman

  • Acre
  • ****
  • Posts: 326

Allotments 4 All

Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2017, 12:49:18 »

squeezyjohn

  • Hectare
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,013
  • Oxfordshire - Sandy loam on top of clay
Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2017, 12:59:14 »
Who is right, neither , but what if....
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/oct/24/eu-brink-historic-decision-pervasive-glyphosate-weedkiller


A quote from that headline "Glyphosate is found in 60% of our bread"

... so if it's not broken down by being milled in to flour, made in to dough, baked and put on a shelf in a shop for days ... how come it is supposed to break down within a couple of days in the soil?  I don't believe it does.

picman

  • Acre
  • ****
  • Posts: 326
Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2017, 13:53:03 »
A ban on the herbicide glyphosate, sold commercially by Monsanto as Roundup - along with more transparent scientific evaluations of pesticides and a overall reduction in their use - should be an EU priority, citizens said on Monday (20 November) at the European Parliament. The petition was part of a initiative signed by over 1.3 million Europeans ahead of the final vote (27 November) by EU member states on a five-year renewal of the glyphosate licence, due to expire on 15 December.
"There is a wide consensus" about the cancerogenity of glyphsate, Mika Leandro from the Citizen's Commitee said during the debate, which is worrying since "it is found literally everywhere", including in bread and baby food.
If the majority of Europeans took a urine test, they can expect it to be positive for glyphosate, Leandro added.
The toxicity of glyphosate and 'the domino effect' it has on the environment makes the herbicide a "killer machine", said Franziska Achterberg, Greenpeace EU food policy director, speaking at the European Parliament.

Plot 18

  • Acre
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
  • Plot in Mid-Kent
Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2017, 15:10:37 »
This has turned into a not always friendly debate about glyphosate, when we were just asked in the beginning if allotment committees could/should ban it unilaterally.

It's going nowhere now..

The EU or our own Government will decide if it remains legal to use it, or not, and no amount of links to articles or quoting from them will alter that, or most people's opinions.

picman

  • Acre
  • ****
  • Posts: 326
Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2017, 15:19:26 »
Plot 18 , Apologises, Yes I do seem to have the bit between my teeth , It was the "urine, babies , and bread " that angered me ... One tends to hear more and more of health issues these days . pressure on services , millions of sick people ... can it all be down to germs, diet, life style etc....   

nodig

  • Half Acre
  • ***
  • Posts: 106
Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2017, 16:34:53 »
Talking about risks what about soil itself.  It contains lots of nasties including Clostridium tetani (tetanus) Clostridium botulinum (botulism) Clostridium perfringens (the trots) and Bacillus anthracis (anthrax).  These can give you all sorts of unpleasant things like gangrene, paralysis, death.  Don't rule out anthrax, it can lay dormant for centuries.  It emerged in Wiltshire in 2015.  So who thinks all allotments should be closed down until full soil assessments are made, and the site is certified safe. Perhaps someone should bring this up at their next allotment meeting?

Obelixx

  • Hectare
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,126
  • Vendée, France
Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2017, 17:12:47 »
OK - back to the original question - I don't think committees should ban legally available products unless they're willing and able to declare a site completely organic.  Even then there would be products allowed that I wouldn't use.

As for current demands on the health service - most are caused by poor lifestyle - drunkenness, smoking, obesity, excess fats and sugars and insufficient vitamins and minerals in their diet .  we wouldn't expect to harvest good crops from malnourished plants so why do people expect malnourished bodies to stay well?   Then there are all those people using the NHS instead of their common sense.  You don't need antibiotics for a cold.  You don't need A&E for a headache.   

Have you heard the reports of 999 services being overwhelmed by idiot West Ham fans depressed about their team losing and not knowing what to do about it?  Get a grip!
Obxx - Vendée France

ancellsfarmer

  • Hectare
  • *****
  • Posts: 990
  • Plot is London clay, rich in Mesozoic fossils
Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2017, 14:02:11 »
 

"Have you heard the reports of 999 services being overwhelmed by idiot West Ham fans depressed about their team losing and not knowing what to do about it?  Get a grip!"
[/quote]
TIC
Any shortage of allotments in West Ham?
Could be a better landuse!!
Now what have we got that will kill grass?
Freelance cultivator qualified within the University of Life.

ed dibbles

  • Hectare
  • *****
  • Posts: 506
  • somerset/dorset border. clay loam.
Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2017, 16:37:09 »
This glyphosate thread has been posted in a U.S fruit growing forum I follow.

http://growingfruit.org/t/roundup-and-cancer-no-firm-link-new-study/13303/4

A link to a huge multi year study on agricultural workers, their glyphosate use and cancer incidence. There report found no link whatsoever.

https://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/50921/title/Long-term-Study-Finds-That-the-Pesticide-Glyphosate-Does-Not-Cause-Cancer/

The commenters suggest there may be a difference between what may be termed "pure" glyphosate (rosate36 for example) and branded. (roundup etc)

I read an article a couple of years ago from the so called "green lobby" Where they openly admitted trying to hurt Monsanto financially with glyphosate mentioned specifically. They are strongly against that company because of its links to GM crops.

Personally I am sceptical about most things written by journos in newspapers, particularly on scientific matters. As Plot 18 says it is a good idea to do your own research taking in both sides of the argument. :happy7:



« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 16:40:26 by ed dibbles »

Digeroo

  • Hectare
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,383
  • Cotswolds - Gravel - Alkaline
Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2017, 18:43:00 »
I once took part in a medical study.  It was to do with the effects of anesthetics on people with a particular syndrome.  Several members of the group had experienced problems.  So we were given questionaires.  At least 5 people had experienced issues.  But when the report of the study was published the total number of questionaires had been substantially reducted and most of those with problems had for a variety of spurious reasons been excluded.  This left one problem which was lower than the normal statistically expected level. 
I have never trusted a medical study since.
And precisely who paid for the study on Glyphosate.  Monsanto?  He who pays the piper.....

ed dibbles

  • Hectare
  • *****
  • Posts: 506
  • somerset/dorset border. clay loam.
Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2017, 18:23:14 »
One of the commenters asked the same question as you, Digeroo. Who paid for the study. Another poster replied:

" The study is a collaborative effort involving investigators from National Cancer Institute, the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences, the Environmental Protection Agency, and the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health."

Of course the same question applies to the "glyphosate causes cancer" report. Who paid for it?

I agree with you entirely you cannot trust one report and while it is human nature to want to believe things that fit ones own prejudices it pays to be sceptical of all claims, studies and reports at least until further evidence becomes available. Truly independent if possible.

Your own very interesting and educational experience bears this out surely. :happy7:

« Last Edit: November 26, 2017, 18:26:42 by ed dibbles »

picman

  • Acre
  • ****
  • Posts: 326
Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2018, 09:22:39 »
With all the current coverage of glyphosate health issues i am surprised A4A members are not concerned , no posts recently . Perhaps every plot shed in the country has some  .. I hope again to propose a ban at our AGM , perhaps a list of banned / permitted chemicals on site would be a way to go . Given that some UK councils , and some countries , have banned it already and the WHO says "It possibly carcinogenic " is it worth the risk.

lezelle

  • Half Acre
  • ***
  • Posts: 247
Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2018, 09:43:38 »
Hi Ya, I think everyone is watching the results as it could be some over zealous person causing all the fuss. Some times weedkiller is the only way to go in certain circumstances and I will admit to using it on the odd occasion. As for getting it banned on the site I would strongly oppose that. In fact I would ignore the ban. It is up to the individuals wether they use it or not and for them to take care as per instructions. There are worse things being used by farmers as the honey bee population will testify like nicotinoids. That is a cause worth fighting. As for glysophate what you buy in the shop is so diluted compared to what professionals use it only does so much. I will continue to monitor but certain parties tend to over exaggerate some stages and should stick to their own. We could always go back to older remedies like ammonium sulphamate.

Plot 18

  • Acre
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
  • Plot in Mid-Kent
Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2018, 09:45:15 »
There are no more comments because people have already stated their own point of view, so nothing else to discuss.
Mine is still the same..
"Is it worth the risk" is for individuals to decide as long as the product remains legal. To have it banned would need most members to agree.
I've not actually seen any reports of allotments banning it unless they are the ones that voted to go totally organic.
Voting for going organic is a different point to banning Glyphosate - not many people want their site to be totally organic, but the people who do often shout the loudest on allotment forums. No offence intended just stating the obvious....

picman

  • Acre
  • ****
  • Posts: 326
Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2018, 14:25:54 »
Hi plot 18, you make your point , however " individuals to decide " would mean my plot neighbour , can spray with any dilution of glyphosate he fancies, it carries on to my strawberries bed , and so when my granddaughter eats them straight off the plant.. she is eating poison...   perhaps best to close the stable door before the horse has bolted..
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 14:27:35 by picman »

Plot 18

  • Acre
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
  • Plot in Mid-Kent
Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2018, 16:53:14 »
Best to move your strawberry bed away from your boundaries so you don't have to worry about it,  would be my advice tbh.

If he is actually spraying over your plot, then you have the right to report him, to make sure he applies the stuff correctly, however, you don't have the right to tell him that he cannot spray at all, sorry.

I think your best bet would be to look for a plot/site somewhere else that better suits your ideals, as you feel so strongly about it.

squeezyjohn

  • Hectare
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,013
  • Oxfordshire - Sandy loam on top of clay
Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2018, 16:59:46 »
My point of view hasn't really changed since the last time I posted in the thread - and I don't see the discussion going anywhere apart from having the potential to get heated which isn't really why I'm on this forum!

I have seen the news, but it's only really one legal case in America - and not new research.

My allotment neighbour who uses Roundup has begun using a far better technique to avoid drift and contamination.  He's moved from a pressure sprayer to a hand trigger spray gun, and now he puts a milk carton with the bottom cut off over target plants and squirts through the top.  I'm pretty confident that this is a fairly safe and drift free method of using glyphosate.

Obelixx

  • Hectare
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,126
  • Vendée, France
Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #37 on: September 14, 2018, 17:09:42 »
That sounds like a careful approach but surely as time consuming and labour intensive as just pulling or hoeing the offenders.
Obxx - Vendée France

Beersmith

  • Acre
  • ****
  • Posts: 313
  • Duston, Northampton. Loam / sand.
Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #38 on: September 14, 2018, 19:10:25 »
It is 2018, and we live in a world of science and technology that would have been unimaginable even when I was a boy. Technology has advanced more in the last three decades than in the previous three thousand years. And it presents us all with challenging decisions, because we have seen numerous examples where technology has got it wrong.

From asbestos in buildings to thalidomide, lead in petrol to contaminated blood products, phthalates in plastics to mercury build up in fish when technology is used without safeguards or any respect for the environment and science is done badly the effects for us all can be pretty apalling.

But equally science can be brilliant and hugely beneficial. The benefits of antibiotics and vaccination for mankind overall have been huge notwithstanding a few very rare bad reactions. From cochlea implants to CAT scans, computers to mobile phones, materials like carbon fibre to producing your own electricity from solar panels it is integral to the way we live today and mainly beneficial.

Now generally, we should rely on science and here I mean good science reported in the best journals and subject to careful and rigorous peer review. But the ordinary man in the street does not have access to this material. Even if we did it is unlikely we would understand it. Instead we have to rely on secondary reports often by journalists who have barely a clue about science, and worse numerous sources that have vested financial interests but equally bad quite a lot of internet sources that are simply crackpot. It is hugely difficult to know which sources to trust.

But for all the current uncertainty about the safety of glyphosate one thing is absolutely certain, longer term science will arrive at the truth. Nothing is more certain. Science probes, it advances, it makes new findings and it constantly re-examines. A topic as important and contentious as this will continue to attract close scrutiny until it is eventually resolved.

Not mad, just out to mulch!

nodig

  • Half Acre
  • ***
  • Posts: 106
Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #39 on: September 14, 2018, 20:30:17 »
I work on the basis that if there was a complete ban on Glysophate in 2018 and a graph of death rates 10 years before the ban and 10 years after were presented before a team of statistical experts in 2028 I'll bet not one of them would be able to spot a significant change dating from 2018.  Of course you will always have the let's ban it just in case it harms people, but then again when trains were first introduced the naysayers believed that people would melt at those high speeds and ladies uteruses would fly out.  luckily most people are pragmatic, and try to ignore the greeny bandwagoners, and embrace modern advances that makes life so much more enjoyable.

 

anything