Author Topic: Weed killers containing Glyphosate  (Read 16383 times)

picman

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Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« on: November 22, 2017, 20:54:49 »
At our AGM I unsuccessfully tried to get our members to ban Glyphosate weed killers from our site  :BangHead: , My evidence presented reported the research from MIT re the harm it can do if ingested by humans , and presented the fact  it has been banned , in the Netherlands, Mexico , Argentina Sri Lanka Brazil , and El Salvador. I was wondering if any associations have banned these weedkillers.   

Plot 18

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Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2017, 22:31:34 »
I know some people feel very strongly about Glyphosate, but can you really ban something that is still, atm, legal to use in the UK? (although I should think that nobody likes the idea of it being used quite as much as it is!)
The EU haven't banned it (yet!) because they don't think the research has actually proved it is harmful, to humans.

For every bit of research against, there's another says it is safe.

lezelle

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Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2017, 10:02:36 »
Hi Ya, I don't advocate the use of weedkillers but in certain circumstances there is no alternative. I have read that Glyphosate is safe and breaks down on contact with the earth. I know of a no dig gardener who uses it all the time and it's their choice. If I use it on my plot thats my decision. As for what other countries are doing, they use worse things. I would stand against and ignore the ban if our site tried to bring it in. There are worse things being used like neonicotinoids. You have your reasons I've no doubt but so do others. You do your thing on your plot I will do mine and providing neither hurts the other then hey ho, nuffsaid
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 10:08:12 by lezelle »

picman

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Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2017, 10:23:45 »
lezelle...  glyphosate. While the pesticide industry maintains that glyphosate is minimally toxic to humans, new research published in the Journal Entropy strongly argues otherwise by shedding light on exactly how glyphosate disrupts mammalian physiology. Authored by Anthony Samsel and Stephanie Seneff of MIT, the paper investigates glyphosate’s inhibition of cytochrome P450 (CYP) enzymes, an overlooked component of lethal toxicity to mammals. Dr. Seneff describes the mechanism by which the glyphosate disrupts human biological processes. The currently accepted view is that ghyphosate is not harmful to humans or any mammals because the shikimate pathway found in plants is absent in animals. The shikimate pathway is involved with the plant’s synthesis of certain amino acids and is lethally disrupted by glyphosate. What has been completely overlooked until now is that the shikimate pathway is present in beneficial human gut bacteria, which play a critical role in human health. Gut bacteria aid digestion, prevent permeability of the gastointestinal tract, synthesize vitamins and provide the foundation for robust immunity. Glyphosate Disrupts the Functioning of Beneficial Gut Bacteria In synergy with disruption of the biosynthesis of important amino acids via the shikimate pathway, glyphosate inhibits the cytochrome P450 (CYP) enzymes produced by the gut microbiome.  CYP enzymes are critical to human biology because they detoxify the multitude of foreign chemical compounds, xenobiotics, that we are exposed to in our modern environment today.
As a result, humans exposed to glyphosate through use of this herbicide in their community or through ingestion of its residues on industrialized food products become even more vulnerable to the damaging effects of other chemicals and environmental toxins they encounter! What’s worse is that the negative impact of glyphosate exposure is slow and insidious over months and years as inflammation gradually gains a foothold in the cellular systems of the body.  The consequences of this systemic inflammation are most of the diseases and conditions associated with the Western lifestyle:
Gastrointestinal disorders, Obesity, Diabetes, Heart Disease , Depression , Autism, Infertility, Cancer ,Multiple Sclerosis, Alzheimer’s disease And the list goes on and on and on …
In summary, Dr. Seneff’s study of glyphosate uncovers the manner in which this lethal environmental toxin gradually and inevitably disrupts homeostatis in the human body with the tragic end result of disease, degeneration, and widespread suffering.   
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 10:29:08 by picman »

Plot 18

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Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2017, 12:38:38 »
Mmm 2 sides to the story perhaps? I prefer to check out both sides before taking published articles as fact.
Read more about that here if you like.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4538578/

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/glyphosate-the-new-bogeyman/
and
https://www.alternet.org/food/meet-controversial-mit-scientist-who-claims-have-discovered-cause-gluten-sensitivty

Quote
SS(Dr Senaff): No. It’s all computer science. It’s all synthesis. So basically what I do is I read papers and I process them with the computer to help me understand them and interpret them and generalize and build a story. So it’s really a matter of studying. Mostly what I do now is study, and then write. Trying to understand biology. I have an undergraduate degree from MIT in biology, and I also spent one year in graduate school in biology before switching over to computer science.



So I personally don't think it is as clear cut as you believe..

picman

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Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2017, 12:51:17 »
Plot 18 , I am willing to accept its not clear cut these things never are, it took decades to ban DDT ...   but even the smallest doubt as the the safety of Glyphosate for me negates its use on a public space , and the fact the Netherlands has banned it speaks volumes....

squeezyjohn

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Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2017, 13:10:32 »
I recently had a very long and angry argument about this exact thing.  My point of view is that if there is even the slightest doubt that using a chemical might have awful and far reaching consequences for our health or the environment then it has to be regulated against while the evidence comes in.  Glyphosate is being used in some pretty obscene ways - the farmer behind my allotment used it a year ago to kill and ripen a whole field of wheat - this is turned in to flour and sold in the shops - and we have no way of knowing if it is in our food supply.

As for us home-gardeners and allotment holders, we don't NEED weedkillers at all ... we can cover, weed, hoe or just live with and manage the weeds manually.  Sure - it's more convenient to use it - but if it turns out to have far reaching consequences then that's not something I could live with.  I've stopped using glyphosate and on the rare occasion I feel tempted to use weedkiller, I have a supply of the stupidly banned safer simple chemical Ammonium Sulphamate which works better anyway.

picman

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Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2017, 13:25:15 »
If it is safe for humans... Why does the council work man who sprays our pavements with glyphosate wear a full protective suite and face mask.... 

hippydave

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Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2017, 15:57:06 »
If it is safe for humans... Why does the council work man who sprays our pavements with glyphosate wear a full protective suite and face mask.... 

When spraying the person doing the spraying is exposed for very long periods and the council has to legally protect them from over exposure to the chemicals so they go above and beyond with the PPE. Glyphosate is used as a desiccant on crops before harvest to bring down the moisture content and we have been eating it for years. I dont agree with it being used in this way and getting in the food system
you may be a king or a little street sweeper but sooner or later you dance with de reaper.

Plot 18

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Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2017, 16:32:42 »
You do your thing on your plot I will do mine and providing neither hurts the other then hey ho, nuffsaid
I agree, is the only way forward.

I very rarely use it - but reserve my right to use it on my own plot, should I choose to.
I don't take kindly to people telling me what to do,  and it seems like Big Brother control, to me - unless there is scientific agreement on the need to ban it, of course.


squeezyjohn

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Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2017, 16:42:17 »
Well we should probably keep burning fossil fuels as much as we want to as well then ... we'll never have 100% proof that climate change will make this planet unliveable until we've actually done it!  Of course it will be too late then ... but hey-ho ... at least we won't be told what to do by "Big Brother"

 :icon_cheers:

picman

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Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2017, 16:43:33 »
 Hippydave "I dont agree with it being used in this way and getting in the food system"  so is it safe or not in the food system ?
Plot 18 I     " but reserve my right to use it on my own plot, should I choose to. " You may take care its just sprayed on your plot, others are not so careful, sprays get carried in the wind , also our site manager sprays it all around the site  paths and common areas . 

nodig

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Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2017, 17:17:39 »
I was spraying with glysophate a few months back and noticed my that my jeans were soaked from a fine spray coming from a pin hole leak in the sprayer pipe.  I am still alive but will inform you all if anything happens in the future.

BarriedaleNick

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Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2017, 17:37:33 »
No we haven't banned it and we have no plans to do so.  The science is not clear cut at all and the article you quote from is a not necessarily all that it seems. http://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/15/4/1416/htm for those that fancy a read.
Even they conclude

“The pathologies to which glyphosate could plausibly contribute, through its known biosemiotic effects, include inflammatory bowel disease, obesity, depression, ADHD, autism, Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, ALS, multiple sclerosis,
cancer, cachexia, infertility, and developmental malformations.”

They are merely stating plausibility and contribution - they are not stating any direction causation.  They go on to say " it is imperative for more independent research to take place to validate the ideas presented here" - .  What they have written is just a review - not novel research and it doesn't really add anything new (even when it was published 4 years ago) to the bank of scientific knowledge.

Also some odd things about this article, where is was published and the authors - summarised and debated here. 
http://sci-phy.com/detecting-bogus-scientific-journals
I'll leave it to you to read and make your own minds up but I find nothing convincing about it.

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hartshay

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Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2017, 18:35:31 »
I am happy to go with the scientific consensus and there is no consensus on Glyphosate that suggests it  is in any more  harmful than other substance used.

Glyphosate is pretty benign compared with some of the chemicals we used in the recent past and about the only weedkiller an amateur gardener can use.   If it is legal to use whats the problem? 

Just use some common sense on all this stuff.

Sometimes the stuff the organic advocates come out with on our plots defy scientific/common sense.  I asked what one of the above person was spraying on their grapes ... apparently it was copper sulphate solution... eek that is a dodgy substance but it is ok because it is 'organic"  Oh and using ascetic acid or sodium chloride to kill weeds is apparently ok on that plot.

A local plotholder who is on the evangelical 'organic type' tried get our allotment association to be organic only in other words only fully organic types could be a member!

Among their other  proposals was a ban on manure as it contained 'chemicals' and polluter the groundwater. 
That person was gobsmacked when it was pointed out that the old carpets they covered their plot in were leaching some pretty nasty stuff into the soil. I didn't help when another wag asked if the nettle/comfrey teas they used had noxious chemicals in them.  We fell about when they also suggested that we only use rainwater as tapwater has chemicals which pollute the ground....

I rarely use any chemical, pheromone traps nematodes etc etc on my plots largely because they are not needed and they also cost a fortune. 

I know someone will flame me over this post but my  attitude is live and let live on our plots and we don't tell people what to do and expect them not to tell us...

Oh with one exception ...plots uncultivated and allowed to weed over abandoned until they get a 'letter' then they do a bit and leave it till next time....
 

ACE

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Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2017, 18:39:08 »
If it is safe for humans... Why does the council work man who sprays our pavements with glyphosate wear a full protective suite and face mask.... 

I used to spray for the council. I was the only person with a certificate. Dressed up like a ghostbuster even on the hottest days. Sweat mixed with the fine spray would be all over me. Fullers earth breaks it down so I had a gritty old bar of soap  to wash down with and once when I wiped my face with the stuff on my hands I ate a teaspoon full of fullers earth ( not nice). Perhaps some of my problems are not down to me partying hard every weekend but the backlash from spraying for 25 years. Hand on heart, I cannot say  I emerged unscathed, but for somebody who was believed to have  been  conceived on the biggest party of the 20th century, (VE day) I ain't doing that bad.

Beersmith

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Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2017, 21:28:33 »
As allotment holders any use of glyphosate is dwarfed by agricultural applications. Ever since Monsanto developed cereals that are glyphosate resistant, it is standard to drench these crops part way through growing and destroy all weeds. Similarly glyphosate is routinely used as a dessicant on oilseed and other crops. (Even malted barley which worries me personally). Monsanto issue advice on timing in relation to % of seed moisture.  The volumes being sprayed annually for these purposes are terrifying.

Now I make an admission. I use it myself. I never spray but use gel sticks in tiny quantities to smear a little onto the leaves of particular tough weeds. One stick lasted four seasons then dried up while still half used. If it was banned I'm sure I'd cope using other approaches.

What seems odd is that given how widespread it is used there seems little evidence that it is safe. Now equally evidence that it is definitely harmful also seems scanty. But shouldn't a precautionary approach operate in this modern world. That is prove it safe before widespread use. Otherwise we risk endless reruns of health problems like industry use of asbestos, thalidomide, lead in petrol, nox emissions, etc etc.

Our AGM is soon. If a ban was proposed would I support it?  Hard to say. I don't like forcing my views on others, especially when the level of use in agriculture dwarfs what happens on our allotment field. The issue may not arise. I think we may soon have no one with the necessary certificates / training to allow purchase and use. 



Not mad, just out to mulch!

squeezyjohn

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Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2017, 23:03:20 »
I agree that commercial farming use dwarfs any effects of use on allotments and in private gardens.  I don't want to get all tin-foil-hat on everyone here either - and I certainly don't want to impinge on anyones rights to do what they think is best on their own plots.

It may prove harmless to humans, it may even have little effect on insects.  But we've just had news in from Germany that flying insect numbers are down by 75% from the population in 1990 ... I don't know about you but that scares the willies out of me!  Big commercial glyphosate use definitely reduces the amount of flowering plants (weeds) - that's its purpose ... and that's also what feeds many of these insects, many of which are pollinators!  Monoculture isn't enough - our farming methods now demand a pristine field devoid of anything which isn't crops.  To suggest this doesn't affect the hedges and margins is silly - my allotment got nuked by glyphosate drift from the farmer despite being beyond the field margins and many of the smaller, rarer hedgerow weeds are dying out in just such a habitat.

Add in the neonicotinoids used on crops definitely killing insects, industrial farming soil erosion and probably other factors as yet undiscovered and we are sitting on an absolute time bomb.

If, like me, you are suspicious when you read that something is "definitely safe" and "definitely breaks down 100%" in the soil within 24hrs then you should probably place a keen eye on where the money comes from to fund such results - you should keep an eye on who is lobbying the politicians that say "yes this is safe" ... you should also trust your own experience when your neighbour puts glyphosate along the fence line (which is systemic and breaks down in 24hrs to a non active substance) and then your lovage and oregano plants 3 foot from the fence line begin to die from weedkiller type symptoms 2 weeks later!

But back to farming ... I certainly want the right to choose not to eat crops 'ripened' by glyphosate until I am absolutely certain it isn't going to harm me!
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 23:05:00 by squeezyjohn »

Digeroo

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Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2017, 07:23:01 »
I do not know of any alternatives.  For me things like aminopyralid certainly seemed to do much more harm and last much much longer.  But I agree some people seem to use far too much.   Aminopyralid was supposed to breakdown quickly in the soil but here it look more than two years.     It takes longer in certain soil types but I could never get out of Dow which types that meant.  So the original testing did not include every type of soil.  The worms were far to sensible to go near it. 

I do not like the thought of weedkillers like Glyphosate being sprayed on crops such as wheat to make it ripen more evenly.  It might breakdown in the soil but this never sees the soil and ends up in bread etc.  I very much hope there will be a ban on preharvest spraying of weedkillers.

I used Glyphosate last year because my allotment had become covered in nettles, and they have now grown back from the roots, and I am now digging them out the old fashioned way with a spade and elbow grease.    So apart from couch grass which invades from the surrounding paths I am not going to use it.  So not only did I contaminate my plt with weedkillers it was unsuccessful. 

It is not easy to see if it is spreading to other plots.  I watched one guy spraying and a considerable amount blew onto the next plot.    He was totally unaware that it was drifting, and had chosen quite a still day, yet viewed from a distance you could see drifts of fine spray heading onto the runner beans next door.  Every year he sprayed his plot with weedkiller.   And now he has cancer.  Maybe a coincidence maybe not.

Obelixx

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Re: Weed killers containing Glyphosate
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2017, 12:49:00 »
EU studies involving scientists in several member nations have found the glyphosate is present in water supplies and having an adverse effect on wildlife.   In countries where Monsanto has sold GM crop seeds of plants bred to be resistant to glyphosate, farmers are using higher concentrations of g'phate to combat weeds and now clusters of cancers and birth deformities are being recorded in those areas.   I would not, on principle, use any Monsanto product because of this combined with their policy of locking farmers into exclusive contracts and suing others whose crops prove to have Monsanto genes thru cross pollination.  Immoral and amoral company.

Here in France it will be illegal as of 1/1/18 and sales are already restricted with the products containing it being held in locked displays.   Our new veggie plot is full of weeds since we had it leveled and harrowed.   I tried an unbranded g'phate spray but it was ineffective.   The locals tell me that the bindweed, dock, mallow and other weeds will need something stronger anyway so we're gradually covering what will be the paths with weed fabric and the future raised beds have been covered with cardboard and compost.   Anything that defies that lot will be hoed or pulled till it gives in. 

Don't want chemicals on soil producing stuff to eat.

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