Author Topic: Is seed-garlic a monopoly?  (Read 7555 times)

squeezyjohn

  • Hectare
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,022
  • Oxfordshire - Sandy loam on top of clay
Is seed-garlic a monopoly?
« on: October 18, 2017, 11:21:52 »
Every year when the time comes around to buying garlic seed I am becoming more and more frustrated by the diminishing number of varieties and the complete disappearance of several sorts which I know performed really well for me.  I can see that these varieties are still available in the USA as they are for sale over there ... but seed garlic is living tissue and cannot be imported legally (I think) and American companies almost never send anything abroad anyway!

Chesnok Red, German Red and many others I've forgotten the names of now have disappeared years ago despite being amazing performers with a great flavour.  Others have had their name changed with a "Wight" suffix.  In fact - if you look at all the major catalogues there is hardly a single variety available that isn't grown by the Garlic Farm on the Isle of Wight.  If they don't grow it ... it's not in the catalogues.  If its name has changed ... they have changed the name!

This year The Garlic Farm has drastically reduced the number of varieties available - and so have the main seed catalogues.  The price of seed garlic has gone up a lot everywhere too!  I don't mind buying from them on principle but I have suspicions about where some of my white rot has come from when planting in ground I know hasn't had any alliums growing for over 10 years and two years ago they sent me bulbs with only 3 or 4 cloves on each one for £3 each!

Is the industry a stitch-up or am I imagining it?  Does anyone know where else I can look to buy interesting hardnecks or good solid performing garlic (without the doubt of white-rot coming in from seed stock)?

Paulh

  • Hectare
  • *****
  • Posts: 592
Re: Is seed-garlic a monopoly?
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2017, 11:56:14 »
Like you, I wasn't happy with the quality and choice from the obvious suppliers, so I've bought mine for three years from Tamar Organics. My variety of choice is "Sprint" and I'm very happy with what they send me. Having bought mine from them a couple of weeks ago, I see their 2018 catalogue doesn't have the variety any more, so I hope it will be back next year.

InfraDig

  • Hectare
  • *****
  • Posts: 545
  • Rochester, Kent
Re: Is seed-garlic a monopoly?
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2017, 15:03:26 »
I have been wondering about this too. Is the use of the suffix "Wight" licenced, and therefore adds to the cost? I have purposely steered away from them for several years for historical reasons that I won't go into here. I have bought my garlic from Wilko, 2 Germidour for £2 or from Taylors available in garden centres. I am not sure if I am shooting myself in the foot, but I am trying not to buy "Wight"!

Tee Gee

  • Hectare
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,926
  • Huddersfield - Light humus rich soil
    • The Gardener's Almanac
Re: Is seed-garlic a monopoly?
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2017, 16:51:23 »
I only buy Garlic every four or five years or so.

Each year when I harvest I save the largest  three or four bulbs of each variety and store then until planting out time.

At harvest time each year I look at my crop in terms of quality and quantity then if I decide they are of poor quality or size then and only then I buy new.

As I see it this is basically what "The Garlic Farm" do.

squeezyjohn

  • Hectare
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,022
  • Oxfordshire - Sandy loam on top of clay
Re: Is seed-garlic a monopoly?
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2017, 19:14:30 »
Thanks for the tip about Tamar organics ... I'd not heard of them before.

As for the changes of name with the Wight suffix ... it's supposedly given to new strains that have been developed by The Garlic Farm - although how they are creating these new strains with suspiciously similar names and descriptions to previously available varieties I really don't know.  True garlic has lost the ability to reproduce sexually via seeds and that means that any clove planted will make a clone of the parent plant ... the same is true for bulbils too.  The only real reason for not using your own cloves as seed would be build up of diseases in the tissue - a problem I assume would also be the case for a commercial seed grower.  Whatever the case I don't see how they can possibly be creating new types of garlic to put the 'Wight' name on ... but what do I know? ... I've only got a degree in genetics from Cambridge!

Plot 18

  • Acre
  • ****
  • Posts: 329
  • Plot in Mid-Kent
Re: Is seed-garlic a monopoly?
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2017, 20:19:38 »
Is it simply because the original strain has been acclimatised to UK conditions, by being grown on the IOW for a few years, so the suffix Wight can be added?

In the garden Centres there are strains that aren't suffixed, which grow just as well -you don't have to buy IOW seed garlic.
Last year I grew Eden Rose - I bought it in either Wyevale or Dobbies.

ACE

  • Hectare
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,424
Re: Is seed-garlic a monopoly?
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2017, 21:08:52 »
I would not believe anything that the Garlic farm does. Here's a topic from a few years ago, The sweetcorn farm was the same farm before he went over to garlic farming



https://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=43562.0


squeezyjohn

  • Hectare
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,022
  • Oxfordshire - Sandy loam on top of clay
Re: Is seed-garlic a monopoly?
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2017, 21:39:42 »
Is it simply because the original strain has been acclimatised to UK conditions, by being grown on the IOW for a few years, so the suffix Wight can be added?

As I said ... I would be very surprised if vegetative propagation (planting cloves) produced any change in traits of the garlic including acclimatisation to the UK.  That's how it works ... only by having a random chance mutation (a rare event) in a single cell can a clone have any different traits at all ... and given a garlic clove is made of many thousands of cells  it wouldn't make a difference anyway!  What I think is happening is that they're getting different local garlics from abroad and slapping a different label on them so that no-one else can do the same.  It's about as honest as trying to copyright traditional folk music or getting an exclusive patent on a rabbit.

Thanks for the heads up ACE.  It's good to get some local insight ... my, my ... pretty bad stuff has happened there!

InfraDig

  • Hectare
  • *****
  • Posts: 545
  • Rochester, Kent
Re: Is seed-garlic a monopoly?
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2017, 22:35:53 »
And that Ace, is why I don't buy any "Wight" garlic!

Plot 18

  • Acre
  • ****
  • Posts: 329
  • Plot in Mid-Kent
Re: Is seed-garlic a monopoly?
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2017, 22:48:38 »

squeezyjohn,  That may be what you believe, but lots of professional growers, blogs etc post on the web about garlic acclimatisation over a few years.
Even Pen state university says
Quote
The term "biological elasticity" describes garlic's ability to acclimate to these factors over time.
https://extension.psu.edu/garlic-production

So I may disapprove of certain seller's prices (and their dodgy pasts) but am inclined to believe that garlic can change when grown year after year in a certain place.

squeezyjohn

  • Hectare
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,022
  • Oxfordshire - Sandy loam on top of clay
Re: Is seed-garlic a monopoly?
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2017, 23:28:59 »
It's not a case of belief ... and I am increasingly willing to accept observations by the real experts who deal hands-on with growing things day-to-day over any scientific models.  But if that is the case then there must be some other mechanism at work ... and I'd rather know what that is than take the word of a man living on a remote island who has sprayed nerve agents over a commercial crop and potentially killed someone!

galina

  • Hectare
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,456
  • Johanniskirchen
Re: Is seed-garlic a monopoly?
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2017, 06:54:59 »
There are some very interesting amateur grower studies about making garlic fertile again.  Very, very occasionally some types of garlic produce fertile seeds.

From these seeds new varieties emerge that are not clones with limited adaptability but new varieties that can make much greater strides in adaptation. 

To make garlic fertile again rather to clone it, is the real step forward.   :wave: 

galina

  • Hectare
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,456
  • Johanniskirchen
Re: Is seed-garlic a monopoly?
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2017, 07:03:17 »
Is it simply because the original strain has been acclimatised to UK conditions, by being grown on the IOW for a few years, so the suffix Wight can be added?


No it hasn't been acclimatised to UK growing conditions at all.  If it was a garlic farm in North Yorkshire or on London clay, then UK adaptation would be a better justified label.  Coming from IOW means it is  n o t  adapted to my climate and soil.  :wave:

Digeroo

  • Hectare
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,578
  • Cotswolds - Gravel - Alkaline
Re: Is seed-garlic a monopoly?
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2017, 07:48:11 »
I am also not sure that acclimatisation to the IOW is any use to me.  I am not that far away but my climate is quite different, much drier, colder in winter, more frost, and warmer in summer.

Interesting that garlic does not produce seed thought there is one plot here with a lot of wild garlic.  It will be interested to see if that has any seed.

Perhaps if it does acclimatise it is a good reason to use your own.

Interesting link from ACE I wonder if the cheetah has changed its spots.

Digeroo

  • Hectare
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,578
  • Cotswolds - Gravel - Alkaline
Re: Is seed-garlic a monopoly?
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2017, 08:13:24 »
Found this
http://www.fwi.co.uk/news/record-fine-for-unlicensed-sprays.htm

Seems it was quite a long time ago.  However he does not seem to have suffered a great deal.  Anything about it on line has been very deeply buried.  While there is loads of publicity for the Garlic Farm.

It is perhaps interesting to note that Tesco does not source its garlic from the UK
https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/263386065

But Ocado
https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/263386065
http://www.fruitnet.com/fpj/article/172687/the-garlic-farm-wins-20k-marketing-prize

Deb P

  • Hectare
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,721
  • Still digging it....
Re: Is seed-garlic a monopoly?
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2017, 08:42:58 »
Franchi state that a lot of the seed garlic available in the UK is imported from China..... Not sure if this is accurate or not?!
They offer hardy Italian garlics for sale, has anyone tried theirs? I'm tempted....
If it's not pouring with rain, I'm either in the garden or at the lottie! Probably still there in the rain as well TBH....🥴

http://www.littleoverlaneallotments.org.uk

squeezyjohn

  • Hectare
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,022
  • Oxfordshire - Sandy loam on top of clay
Re: Is seed-garlic a monopoly?
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2017, 08:47:23 »
There are some very interesting amateur grower studies about making garlic fertile again.  Very, very occasionally some types of garlic produce fertile seeds.

From these seeds new varieties emerge that are not clones with limited adaptability but new varieties that can make much greater strides in adaptation. 

To make garlic fertile again rather to clone it, is the real step forward.   :wave: 

I also remember a recent episode of Gardener's World where Monty Don talked to a chap (probably the one from The Garlic Farm!) who had been to Turkey to try and find the fertile wild predecessor to modern garlic to try and breed new exciting varieties.  Alliums seem to have the habit of creating non-viable seed making varieties which can normally only be cloned (potato onions, Babington's leek) - I suppose these are often the ones we choose for eating as the plants put more of their efforts in to bulbs etc if they are not using that energy to make seeds.


squeezyjohn

  • Hectare
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,022
  • Oxfordshire - Sandy loam on top of clay
Re: Is seed-garlic a monopoly?
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2017, 09:04:19 »
Franchi state that a lot of the seed garlic available in the UK is imported from China..... Not sure if this is accurate or not?!
They offer hardy Italian garlics for sale, has anyone tried theirs? I'm tempted....

I saw those ones ... they have a tempting red hardneck ... but I suspect that if ones grown on the Isle of Wight are not best suited to the rest of the UK climate as some have suggested then Italian ones would be less so.

My initial musings over whether we were entirely at the mercy of The Garlic Farm for varieties seems unfounded ... there are quite a few which seem to be grown by one or two large concerns in France:
Thermidrome,
Germidour,
Edenrose,
Messidrome,
Printanor,
Flavor. 

You've mentioned the Italian ones from Franchi:
Rossa di Sulmona,
Bianco Veneto. 
plus two french varieties just called red and white

(edit: there's also a variety of hardneck Porcelain garlic called Doocot sold by the really garlicky company in Scotland from their website)

Chinese grown varieties seem widespread from Amazon, eBay and some rather faceless web based companies.  However, when you look at the kind of variety of types which are available in the US and Canada ... we're very poorly served - over there they can get what I know to be great hardnecks for our climate and many many more I haven't heard of.

Can anyone add to this list of what's available?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 09:14:18 by squeezyjohn »

InfraDig

  • Hectare
  • *****
  • Posts: 545
  • Rochester, Kent
Re: Is seed-garlic a monopoly?
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2017, 09:24:52 »
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2097718.stm    dated 2002

"Mr Boswell said in his defence that he would no longer be involved with the farm – following the incident his business has suffered heavily and the farm is up for sale."   dated 1999!

antipodes

  • Hectare
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,366
  • W. France, 5m x 20m (900 ft2)
    • My allotment blog
Re: Is seed-garlic a monopoly?
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2017, 15:53:14 »
Perhaps it's not approved practice  but for as long as I remember I have just taken store bought organic garlic (I get haeds grown in France) and just plant the biggest cloves. I stopped buying garden centre garlic as it was 3 times the price and I really saw no difference in harvest. I always get OK Garlic, the size seems to depend more on the weather than anything else.
2012 - Snow in February, non-stop rain till July. Blight and rot are rife. Thieving voles cause strife. But first runner beans and lots of greens. Follow an English allotment in urban France: http://roos-and-camembert.blogspot.com

 

anything
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal