Topic: Loganberry or tayberry

[John85]

Is it possible to see the difference?Or are the two plants so similar that one has to taste the fruit?
I bought a thornless tayberry but I suspect the nurseryman sold me a thornless loganberry.

[Beersmith]

At this time of year it might be difficult and I do not have any suggestions. But once you have fruit it will be easier.  Tayberries are normally a bit bigger than loganberry, also when ripe tinged towards purple rather than deep red and a bit sweeter.You will probably be able to confirm your suspicions by these factors but comparison with on line photographs should clinch it.

Alas this may mean committing to a year or so delay before you find out so this may be a last resort. Others, more expert than me might be able offer advice on the differences in growing habit leaf shape, thorniness etc, that would help you to decide now rather than later.

Cheers

[Vinlander]

You should be able to tell the flowers apart - both my two types of Tays have noticeably strappy petals with noticeable gaps and the logans are more 'normal' and rounded.

If you Google images of the flowers do them separately - both sets have a few of both types of flower (people are imprecise and Google can be even moreso - "they're just berries") but count them in the first 20 images and overall the difference is clear.

It's worth having both plants but much more important if you're missing the Tay.

Tayberry is streets ahead in terms of versatility - it can be eaten out of hand from dark pink to maroon before it goes mouldy - that can mean you only have to pick weekly for cooking and every other day for raw use (but both go much faster in hot spells).

Slightly soft maroon fruit are absolutely delicious mashed with leftover strawberries and frozen as lollies for high summer.

Loganberry's flavour is different enough to grow both for jam etc. (I still prefer the top notes in Tayberry jam), but out of hand a good loganberry is a very rare experience, and still not as good - only the deep maroon ones are worth eating (and I like sharp fruits).

I once timed them to see how long loganberries spent in this state - blink and you'll miss them - it's worth checking the bushes twice in every visit to the plot that's longer than two hours. I joke that they are only ripe for 45 minutes - it's only really a slight exaggeration.

NB. the (not very) thorny Tayberry is even nicer - it has even more top notes (vinous is the term they use). I grow both types and it's well worth it - the thornless next to a busy path (the strappy white flowers are very attractive) and the thorny one out of the way.

Cheers.

[Plot 18]

As they are both blackberry/raspberry crosses, I don't think you can tell them apart 'til you taste them tbh

[Vinlander]

I missed Plot 18s comment while I was modifying with my Google suggestion - just image Google 'em separately and compare.

Cheers.

[johhnyco15]

id wait and taste the fruit if you like it who cares what it is  if you dont  but the other one  if you have the room get the other one at least you will know what one looks like

[Digeroo]

A thornless tayberry is normally more expensive than a thornless love.  They seem to be less vigorous. Thanks for the info re the flowers I will have a look. I did have a thorny Tay the fruit was lovely but the thorns were ferocious.

[John85]

Thank you for your help.
Strangely plenty of flowers have 7 or 8 petals ,some 10

[Vinlander]

Like these attached? the site is http://hazeltwig.blogspot.co.uk/2015_05_01_archive.html if you're more interested in junkyard chic than food.

If you look at the main cluster slightly left of centre  there are five full flowers showing their centres in a pentagon around one in the middle that has lost petals. The one at the top has maybe 11, but the one bottom left of the pentagon looks like mine - 5 with gaps between.

It may be a seedling anyway - some of them are thornless and worth trying - there's always a chance of a better plant.

If your flowers resemble none of these then it's worth getting a Tayberry now - they are so amazing, and it would be a shame to lose another year - you can always get the thorny one now to hedge your bets (as long as you can keep it out of the way).

Cheers.

PS. Tayberry thorns are raspberry thorns so almost any glove is enough - unlike blackberry thorns where you need the kind of glove you'd take to a mediaeval melee.

[laurieuk]

When I was in service we grew tayberries but the owner did not like them and told me to get rid. That autumn I was on my way to di them out when I was stopped by the same person to be told I had  to leave them as she had read an article and they were listed as a delicacy.

[Digeroo]

My tayberry did not have thorns like a raspberry but not like blackberry either.   But the slightest scratch went very nasty.  It was a real beast of a thing.  Lovely fruit but it had to go.  I have a thornless one now but it has been very slow to get going.

[Plot 18]

  I have a thornless one now but it has been very slow to get going.

I planted my Tayberry in 2015, it still hasn't made much growth and no flowers :( Thinking about replacing it with another Loganberry, I have one I planted at the same time as the Tayberry and it is doing very well, loads of fruit last year, so really don't know why the Tayberry is soo slow to get going.

[Vinlander]

They generally grow extremely well but they don't like anything more than partial shade.

Full sun facing SW in good soil makes them flower and fruit like crazy - but the fruiting period is maybe 20% shorter and 30% heavier - meaning more frequent picking because the ripe period is also briefer.

I did have one that took many years to escape from the shade of a pear tree, it was also too near a path across a terrace making the soil hard and dry. It's finally gone through the pear and out the other side and I've been trying to avoid stepping near it - it's much improved.

Properly ripe Tays are a revelation - even more so because I've never seen them in shops, despite being less fragile than raspberries.

Cheers.

[aquilegia]

I have a tayberry. I love strawberries and raspberries, but I have to say I think tayberries are even nicer! (I've never tried loganberries but I've heard others say tays are better!)

[John85]

I wonder if the taste of the thorny and the thornless tayberry is exactly the same.

[Vinlander]

I think the flavour of the thorny one is noticeably better and more complex (as I've already pointed out - more 'top notes').

What's surprising is how good the thornless one is - normally if you select for anything except flavour, the flavour goes out with the bathwater.

Obviously some robustness is essential - the most delicious crop in the world is no good if the plant always dies from the equivalent of a sore throat.

Likewise you have to retain some yield - getting a handful of delicious fruit from a whole bush or tree would be ridiculous - but in general the heavier the cropping the less the flavour.

The exception to the latter is the Victoria plum - but the difference is that its fruit is just the right side of bland - greengages can knock your socks of with sheer fruitiness, but a good Victoria is the epitome of subtle and delicious at the same time (though it still needs thinning).

I've noticed that Tayberry seedlings are often thornless - so there are millions to choose from - like having a million tickets for a lottery instead of just one. That might explain it.

Cheers.

[Digeroo]

My MIL had a thorny loganberry from which she made amazing jam.  But it was a ferocious brute.  My thornless one is OK but taste wise not in the same league.

[John85]

Those thornless tayberries seedlings do they have a thornless one as motherplant?

[johhnyco15]

Those thornless tayberries seedlings do they have a thornless one as motherplant?

yes most plants are cuttings taken from a stock plant  and once you have one its very easy to increase your stock yourself

[Paulh]

My very prickly tayberry responds well to being generously watered. As it's near the kitchen door, it gets a soaking of a few bowls of washing up water each week.