Topic: Do I really need a heated propagator?

[DrJohnH]

Apologies for the long post in advance...

So, I have been doing my research for the future allotment project. 

To start seeds in the (heated) Northern UK house on a large, bright, east facing wide stone windowsill indoors, I was looking at a Vitopod (ouch!) or the Garland big 3 electric propagator. 

However, on studying the excellent Gardener's Almanac planner:

http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Planners/Fruit%20&%20Veg%20planner.htm,

I noted that the germination temperatures (13-21 degrees C and mainly 13-16 degrees C) are no more than the temperatures we might see in the room at the windowsill.

We don't have curtains (rather, Roman Blinds which lie close to the windows) so there is no chance that at night the temperature around the trays would be less than those in the room as might happen if we had closed curtains outside the windowsill.

So I was thinking that a layer of polystyrene (stone windowsill remember) with a 40 x 100cm growbag tray on it containing 4 seed trays with inserts and plastic covers would do the job adequately.

Like this:
https://www.garlandproducts.com/value-growbag-tray-black.html

Containing these:
https://www.garlandproducts.com/professional-seed-trays-pack-of-5.html

And maybe these (I have another question about numbers of cells, but I will get to that later):
https://www.garlandproducts.com/professional-24-cell-inserts-pack-of-5.html

Covered with these:
https://www.garlandproducts.com/propagator-lid.html (or maybe something with adjustable vents- is that advisable?).

Or, to finally get to the question am I missing something fundamental here? 

I'm as much a gadget man as the next guy (or gal) but...

Thanks,

Dr. John

[Elfeda]

Since my propagator is not working and am lazy to  use the not so used yogurt maker (with 7 cups) .. I managed to get all my seeds started from radiator. this helped me to do some experiments to get them quicker and simpler.

 in first half of march I found 3 tomato seedlings in broadbeans seed pots in greenhouse , they were really better than my 1st march started seedlings. so I decided to put half of my tomato seedlings in greenhouse with extra cover until it goes into prolonged cold temparatures.

[Tee Gee]

However, on studying the excellent Gardener's Almanac planner:

Thanks for the comments much appreciated!

These pages might help:

http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Data/Seed%20sowing-indoors/Seed%20Sowing%20-%20Indoors.htm

http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Data/Greenhouse%20heating/Greenhouse%20Heating.htm

[DrJohnH]

However, on studying the excellent Gardener's Almanac planner:

Thanks for the comments much appreciated!

These pages might help:

http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Data/Seed%20sowing-indoors/Seed%20Sowing%20-%20Indoors.htm

http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Data/Greenhouse%20heating/Greenhouse%20Heating.htm

Tee Gee,

Fantastic- I am consuming your site currently on a daily basis and all the great advice (please- keep it up!). 

This link was especially great- http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Data/Seed%20sowing-indoors/Seed%20Sowing%20-%20Indoors.htm and answered a question i had about seed size vs. module cell number.

I plan on a cold frame for hardening off in the chilly North at 53 N, 650ft elevation (eventually). But does the seed need additional heat beyond ambient (i.e. a heated propagator) when starting in the house?

Thanks,

Dr. John

[Tee Gee]

But does the seed need additional heat beyond ambient (i.e. a heated propagator) when starting in the house?

This is subject to the seed variety for example:

Some seeds need high heat levels to break dormancy, where others don't.

Plus there are some that need both periods of alternate hot & cold temperatures (Fridge) to break their dormancy.

As a rule of thumb the following info seems to work well:

If it says on the packet " sow at a given temperature" then these varieties usually do want the benefit of higher temperatures, however if there is an option to sow the seeds insitu outdoors at some time then these types will usually germinate at room temperatures.

A point about indoor temperatures  is the fluctuations in temperature when the central heating automatically turns itself off / on this means periodic drops in temperature when in fact the seeds want continuous heat. This is a particular problem with seeds requiring high temperatures,but not so much with those that require lower temperatures to germinate.



A DIY heating system that can help is a 'lead lamp'

Rig up the lead lamp under a Propagator Cover ensuring it is not touching the plastic . Remove the lamp when watering and shield the light fitting from any dropping condensation.

The heat generated by the lit bulb is quite high (which you can prove if you touch the glass) and gives a steady temperature within the enclosure.

I saw this system used by a friend who built a miniature 'coldframe' in his unheated greenhouse from timber. He fixed the light fitting to the wall of the frame (box) and slatted shelving to carry the seed trays. The box was then covered with a movable glass panel.

Where the lamp is sited in the box can have a dual effect e.g.

If low down in the box the heat will rise and give bottom heat, whereas if fitted above the trays this light up the box which is quite useful when taking cuttings.

Having said all this BE VERY CAREFUL if using such a system as Electricity & Water (Dampness) can be lethal!

[tricia]

Go to your local pound shop or Wilco's. You will find most of what you need there - IMO there is really no need for such an extensive (exPensive  ) outlay as you have listed.

It is easy to germinate seeds on damp kitchen tissues before transferring into modules or pots, more economical too. I use lidded plastic containers placed in a warm area (in my case on top of the bookcase in my living room as I don't have an airing cupboard!). Germination is usually quite fast and once little white tails appear they get planted into modules or 3" pots, depending on variety.

Once planted, a small tip - fashion a backplate for the tray out of cardboard covered in aluminium foil. This helps prevent growth leaning towards the window.

Tricia

[DrJohnH]

But does the seed need additional heat beyond ambient (i.e. a heated propagator) when starting in the house?

A point about indoor temperatures  is the fluctuations in temperature when the central heating automatically turns itself off / on this means periodic drops in temperature when in fact the seeds want continuous heat. This is a particular problem with seeds requiring high temperatures,but not so much with those that require lower temperatures to germinate.

Tee Gee,

Thanks for the tips, and I was also thinking about temperature variability.  Our place has huge thermal mass (very old building, double glazing, thick walls- like a castle!) and also night storage heating.  I must check and see how much the temperatures vary through the 24 hour cycle.

We have an airing cupboard with lots of space for the "hot starters".

Thanks for the compelling ideas,

Dr. John

[DrJohnH]

Go to your local pound shop or Wilco's. You will find most of what you need there - IMO there is really no need for such an extensive (exPensive  ) outlay as you have listed.

It is easy to germinate seeds on damp kitchen tissues before transferring into modules or pots, more economical too. I use lidded plastic containers placed in a warm area (in my case on top of the bookcase in my living room as I don't have an airing cupboard!). Germination is usually quite fast and once little white tails appear they get planted into modules or 3" pots, depending on variety.

Once planted, a small tip - fashion a backplate for the tray out of cardboard covered in aluminium foil. This helps prevent growth leaning towards the window.

Tricia

Thanks Tricia!

Dr. John

[DrJohnH]

But does the seed need additional heat beyond ambient (i.e. a heated propagator) when starting in the house?

A point about indoor temperatures  is the fluctuations in temperature when the central heating automatically turns itself off / on this means periodic drops in temperature when in fact the seeds want continuous heat. This is a particular problem with seeds requiring high temperatures,but not so much with those that require lower temperatures to germinate.

Tee Gee,

Thanks for the tips, and I was also thinking about temperature variability.  Our place has huge thermal mass (very old building, double glazing, thick walls- like a castle!) and also night storage heating.  I must check and see how much the temperatures vary through the 24 hour cycle.

We have an airing cupboard with lots of space for the "hot starters".

Thanks for the compelling ideas,

Dr. John

I Checked with a hi/lo thermometer over a few days last week and the temperature was remarkably stable at 20-21 degrees C.  Would this be about right with the airing cupboard as a hot start for those seeds that need it??

[Tee Gee]

I would say OK for you in Saudi Arabia in fact I would imagine you wont even need the cylinder cupboard with temperatures like these.

The only advantage of the cylinder cupboard would be for things that need quite high temperatures e.g Peppers, but even those will germinate at 21°C all it would mean is they might take a little longer to germinate.

Having been to Saudi and being aware of the heat and humidity I would say a polythene cloche arrangement should work quite well outdoors.

There are a few ideas here most of which could be produced on a DIY basis, if you put your mind to it.

http://www.twowests.co.uk/category/cloches/plastic-cloches

Then there are these which as I recall are plentiful in Saudi;



http://www.twowests.co.uk/category/cloches/plastic-cloches

[DrJohnH]

I would say OK for you in Saudi Arabia in fact I would imagine you wont even need the cylinder cupboard with temperatures like these.

The only advantage of the cylinder cupboard would be for things that need quite high temperatures e.g Peppers, but even those will germinate at 21°C all it would mean is they might take a little longer to germinate.

Having been to Saudi and being aware of the heat and humidity I would say a polythene cloche arrangement should work quite well outdoors.

There are a few ideas here most of which could be produced on a DIY basis, if you put your mind to it.

http://www.twowests.co.uk/category/cloches/plastic-cloches

Then there are these which as I recall are plentiful in Saudi;



http://www.twowests.co.uk/category/cloches/plastic-cloches

Thanks for the feedback, but I am plotting for future adventures in the UK (Derbyshire).   We do have a few of the "cloches" you picture on our premises

[Deb P]

Living in Derbyshire myself, I have extended my little collection of heated propagation equipment over the years as funds have allowed. The one thing having a constant source of heat will give you is time. Yes of course you can propagate seeds cost free on a bright windowsill, but  with my thermostatic propagator I get higher and quick germination times, which gives me time to resow if I'm pushing my luck with borderline viable seeds if they fail. I save a lot of my own seeds flowers and tubers and use and use bottom heat from a heated pad to harden off tomatoes chillies and cucumbers once they are out of the propagator until the temps are high enough night and day. I use a little electric thermostatic fan from the beginning of March to end of May to keep my greenhouse just frost free as well, as we get frosts up until then.